New Workstation Help

[Gabriel Torres]

Good afternoon Corona people!!

My studio asked me for advice on buying a new machine that could run corona effectively at around 1200€ and I was looking for some help...
I have always assembled my own PCs and I have done them with mixed use in mind (gaming / rendering) but this one is work only and, looking around, I'm a little confused.

Here's what the IT Guy suggested and they asked me to check (he knows nothing about rendering, I'm the one always rendering but I wanted to not mess this up. If it was for me, no problem, I'd find a way to either make it work or sell what I bought wrong but it's for the studio so I need your help.)

WorkStation  Gen7 i7-7700
Case                            Matrix GM8007-BB C/ fonte 500w 80 plus
Motherboard                 Asus Z170M Plus
RAM                            16Gb DDR4 2400Mhz
Graphic                        Nvidia Quadro K620
SSD M.2 Pcie NVMe 256Gb  (Ultra Fast)
HDD 1Tb 7200 Sata3
Dvd-rw
Monitor BENQ 27” GL2760H
 
Price  1300€

I wanted to refute on some things but I don't know enough to do so...for example, I know from reading the forums that Threadripper might outperform the i7 and I know for personal experience that I need at LEAST 32GB RAM (I had 16 at my house, was constantly running into RAM problems, now I got 32, no more problems) I also know that an SSD M.2 is overkill and I know this might be ungrateful to ask because you can tell me that, if I scour the forums, I will find the answers to both but I was hoping some of you guys might have an easy answer and that it might also help future people who want to round up these questions...

Thank you so much for your time!

All teh Best!

[Nejc Kilar]

Hey!

I can't really give you a long and proper response right now but... My first thought is why the 7700(non K) CPU?

If you opt for the 1700x / 1800x from AMD you'll have faster rendering times (like almost double fast) albeit slightly slower single thread speed. I think in that budget segment the Ryzen build could be the most optimal if you want to render faster. Not dissing Intel for their chips (their monopoly crap is a different story), they have seriously great CPUs (got them myself) but the segment you are in... I think going Ryzen would probably be best.

As for the m.2, yeah, I'd say if you go with a regular SATA SSD you'll be fine. Unless you transfer A LOT of data I doubt you'll see much difference and you can invest that money towards extra RAM which personally I think you'll definitely notice when working on bigger projects.

And with regards to RAM... Yeah, definitely aim for 32 unless you want to have only C4D / 3ds Max open without much stuff in the background.

[Gabriel Torres]

Thank you for the prompt reply!

Yeah I was looking at some stats on the new Intel "8th Gen" / Ryzen / Threadripper on this now and I see what you mean...
Pretty cool article (https://www.pcworld.com/article/3230369/components-processors/core-i7-8700k-review-prices-specs-benchmarks.html).

I undesrtand now a little better that core number is essential and quite frankly, the Ryzen beats the i7 by a long shot in both performance and price...I honestly had no idea.

And about the RAM, whats the importance of it in render speed? I know Corona speed depends on Cores / Processor AND RAM but I do not understand the ratio or which is more important...(or why, but I'm guessing that's a far bigger explanation that I should probably search on my own =P)

Thank you once again guys!

Cheers!

[Jann]

Also would suggest Ryzen 7, specifically the Ryzen 7 1700. Only get the 1700x or 1800x if you don't overclock and have spare money after other parts. The 1700 comes with a stock cooler that is enough to cool it at stock or even slight OC.

As for memory, I'd suggest at least 2400MHz, since Ryzen benefits from faster ram more than intel does. Decide on a motherboard, and then check it's ram compatibility charts for the ram. Buying random, it might not run full speed etc.
And get those 32Gb in two 16Gb sticks, so you can expand to 64Gb later ;)

You were right on m.2 ssd, a normal sata drive is enough.
For gpu anything from 1050Ti and up should do fine.

I also don't like that monitor, as for 1080p a 23 or 24 inch is optimal. On a 27inch 1440p works best. But that is my personal preference.

All else depends on availability of parts, but don't hesitate to ask if deciding on something ;)

[Ryuu]

If you're interested mostly in Corona rendering, then the best comparison of various CPUs is the Corona benchmark

RAM effect on performance is pretty simple with Corona:

• If the scene (+ everything else running on the machine) fits in RAM, everything is fine and Corona runs full-speed. Additional memory won't help in any way
• If the scene does not fit in memory, you can expect a huge slowdown (~100x or more) due to swapping

[Gabriel Torres]

Wow I didn't know RAM usage was limited to that.

So if the scene does load all into the existing RAM, extra RAM won't speed up rendering at all...
Meaning for relatively small scenes, even 16 Gb can do the trick...

I really thought there was a balance on rendering speed between RAM and CPU.

Thanks for the clarification!!!

[danio1011]

I found that my Corona benchmark results varied quite a bit depending on Ram speed and whether it was operating in dual\single\etc channel.  That's with a 1950x and 64gb of Ram.  So if you go Ryzeen I'd recommend making sure you run in quad channel and that you're near 3ghz for Ram speed.  I saw HUGE differences between quad channel and single channel, for example. 

Maybe just my experience but hope that helps!

[Christa Noel]

Wow I didn't know RAM usage was limited to that.

So if the scene does load all into the existing RAM, extra RAM won't speed up rendering at all...
Meaning for relatively small scenes, even 16 Gb can do the trick...

I really thought there was a balance on rendering speed between RAM and CPU.

Thanks for the clarification!!!

hi Gabriel Torres, if you mean about big small scene is about its size then i'd like to tell you that afaik RAM usage doesnt depend only on how big or small the scene is. example: A small scene (lets say it's a plane with a light) with displacement map can eat your big RAM easily.

I found that my Corona benchmark results varied quite a bit depending on Ram speed and whether it was operating in dual\single\etc channel.  That's with a 1950x and 64gb of Ram.  So if you go Ryzeen I'd recommend making sure you run in quad channel and that you're near 3ghz for Ram speed.  I saw HUGE differences between quad channel and single channel, for example. 

Maybe just my experience but hope that helps!

hi Danio1011, i'm curious about huge difference between quad and single channel RAM. could you please share the benchmark results? :)
Does the difference happen only in ryzen or in other cpu type too? i thought RAM channel only affect someting like scene parsing speed, not render speed.

[Juraj]

Hi Gabriel ! Here are few of my notes:

- Ryzen (AM4) platform only supports dual-channel memory while Threadripper (TR4) supports quad-channel. The difference is not big, not for rendering.
- Both Ryzen and Threadripper benefit from faster memory clocks but to diminishing returns. There is not much benefit above 3000, and 2400-2667 might be more than enough for budget build.
- Memory amount is always more important than speed. If you're on low budget, buy the most amount of affordable memory you can.
- As people correct suggested, buy 2x16 GB sticks instead of 4x8 so you can in future easily upgrade to higher amounts.

- Ryzen 1xxx gen has ended and 2xxx is going to shops. If you buy 1700, shop around for the cheapest available. If not, wait for 2700 to hit the shop in two weeks.

- Don't waste money on PCI-E drives. Buy most affordable Sata drive there is, Samsung 850EVO or even Crucial MX300. 500 GB, not 250. It's super small difference in price, HUGE one in usability. Lot of these can be bought cheaply on auctions.

- As Jann said, get 1050Ti, everything else is too inflated in price.

[gpz]

Sorry but what do you mean with 'fits in ram'?
thanks

If you're interested mostly in Corona rendering, then the best comparison of various CPUs is the Corona benchmark

RAM effect on performance is pretty simple with Corona:

• If the scene (+ everything else running on the machine) fits in RAM, everything is fine and Corona runs full-speed. Additional memory won't help in any way
• If the scene does not fit in memory, you can expect a huge slowdown (~100x or more) due to swapping

[Ryuu]

Well, there's not general rule. Basically open the scene in 3ds Max, then open the task manager and if RAM usage is under 100%, the scene fits in your RAM :)

Probably good rule of thumb to determine the amount of needed RAM for a new rig is to model the most complex scene you can imagine ever doing (lots of geometry, complex displacement, hi-res textures, high resolution render), start rendering and then check the amount of used RAM in the task manager. But other guys would probably tell you better how much RAM you usually need for what kind of projects.

[Juraj]

Whatever ram amount you think you might need, double it :- ).

[Gabriel Torres]

Ahah, that's sound advice. I'm gonna convince them to go with 32 dual channel do be able to expand to 64 later on.
Thank you so much for the asnwers so far, I think I learned more in these conversations than I had searching teh net for hours. I'm even gonna change my home workstation when the Ryzens 2700 hit.

On the office front, here's what the tech guy proposed based on my (our =D) feedback:

WorkStation  Ryzen 7 1700

Case Matrix GM8007-BB C/ fonte 500w 80 plus
Motherboard Asus Prime AM4
16Gb DDR4 2400Mhz       ---------- I'll convince them on the 32!
Graphics 1050 Ti 4Gb DDR5
SSD 480Gb Sata3
HDD 1Tb 7200 Sata3
Monitor BENQ 27” GL2760H
Windows 10 Profissional
 
Price  1191€

[Jann]

Is that a case that comes with a PSU? If so, avoid those like the plague.
Ifthat Asus Prime AM4 is a X370 chipset, you can probably get by with a B350 based board. Maybe others can suggest which ATX models have enough power delivery for 8core cpu. I've only built a mAtx box with MSI B350M Mortar, and seems to work and render just fine.
So maybe less fancy board, but a good PSU. I would not trust a rendering workstation to run off a PSU bundled with a cheap case :|

[Gabriel Torres]

Hmmm I'll ask. Not sure what case he is referring to (can't even find it online) but I'll pass that along. Maybe the B350 and a PSU.

Just out of curiosity, what is the problem witn an in case PSU?

(Once again, thank you all for the prompt replies....made me look like I know what I'm talking about here at the office! ahah)

Cheers!