Messages

1

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-30, 11:59:02 »

I mean, these 4K 32"OLEDs came just this year, it's novelty. 1-2 years and it will be mainstream and we'll see artist or professional oriented models as well. (like Asus ProArt instead of Asus ROG, and LG UltraFine, Dell Ultrasharp, etc..).

I hope that will be the case.

Can I ask for your opinion on what you consider the "best" monitors for our kind of work within a $500 budget? I'm currently using a Dell U2723QE, and I'm wondering if there's anything significantly better at a similar price point.

No, nothing. For 500 USD, the U2723QE is as good as it gets for work. IPS-Black panels (2000:1, so 20perc. better than any IPS panel), decent calibration because it's Dell Ultrasharp range, decent coating (some find it too glossy I think it's nice compromise for image clarity between matte and glossy), nice clean minimalist design.

That's about it. Nothing better on horizon, the only upgrade path for work from this is OLED.

2

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-30, 11:55:47 »

There is indeed auto-color management with latest Windows 11 update, or it's been there since January if you're on fast-track. I haven't tested it as I don't run these builds with it yet.
It's called..."auto-color management". https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/auto-color-management-in-windows-11-64a4de7f-9c93-43ec-bdf1-3b12ffa0870b

If not that, then there are few more things to consider:
- Do you have wide-gamut Display and are you running wide-gamut mode in OSD? (Native, or DCI-P3/AdobeRGB). Unless you have monitor that greatly exceeds sRGB color gamut, you will not see noticeable color shift. This shift would also be strongest in Red tones.
 ICC profile merely interprets color in OS, it runs on top of what the monitor's OSD is set to. That's why ICC is always paired to specific monitor mode, and if you switch it's not longer applicable. So for wide-gamut environment, you would run Native or specific wide-gamut mode in OSD, and then calibrate after that to ICC which matches the desired color-space. The possible working combination go from higher to lower (so Wide-Gamut to Low-gamut) or equal to equal (HG to HG or LG to LG).
- What do you mean "make sure the ICC profile is set", Working Space ? When you import file, you can convert to profile (which should be default settings if you don't get asked), or assign profile (which is meant to interpret colors when profile is missing). Since I am not on 2025 with OCIO, my 3dsMax (or Corona VFB for that matter) doesn't save with any color-profile attached to file formats.
- Your file (render) should be converted to space you intend to work in and the working space should like-wise be set to generic (non-device specific) color-space (sRGB or P3/AdobeRGB/.. for Wide-gamut. If you load your monitor ICC, you will disable color-management.


- If you want to be sure, set working environment in Photoshop to sRGB (that is default). On importing render, set the mode to "convert". On opening, convert the render to sRGB color-space. Make sure the auto-mode in Window is disabled if by any chance this latest update is on. And only after that, compare 3dsMax Corona VFB and your opened render.

I don't understand right now 100perc. which exact combination you're doing, but in my opinion you most probably negated color-management and are seeing incorrect (but identical) colors in both 3dsMax and PS. That's actually quite easy scenario to achieve. Seeing identical colors doesn't mean you have correct color-managed workflow pipeline.

It doesn't matter though, I can guarantee you 3dsMax until 2025 simply isn't color-managed, it can load Gamma 2.2 and that's about it. With the OLED I have right now, single-toggle of sRGB in NoVideo tool shows almost 20perc. perceptible difference in red saturation, matching the srgb coverage of WOLED panels (125perc. QD-OLED up to 150perc. even)

Yas so I'm definitely a newbie for when it comes to ICCs and managing this stuff (thank you for getting into it with me) but nonetheless - I do think it might work better in the latest W11 build across all apps?

I do have a wide-ish gamut display that covers 90% of the Adobe gamut and roughly 70% of Rec 2020 which naturally makes the everyday "web" colors quite saturated if I don't "clamp" it back to sRGB using the display's OSD. Suffice it to say though, for my line of work at least, I am predominantly concerned about the sRGB output so the display is set to hardware clamp to sRGB.

I'm trying to validate what kind of an effect the ICC profile has and with all of what you've mentioned above I'm not sure how it could be wrong.

- With the ICC profile loaded into Windows via Color Management, the 3ds Max / C4D VFB image looks the same (side by side) to the one in Photoshop where I can set the RGB working space to the ICC profile.
- If I have the ICC profile loaded in Windows and in Photoshop I select the standard sRGB profile (the one that comes with Windows by default) then the two images don't match.
- If I try to validate the colors the ICC profile produces with my xRite i1 Display Pro, then the average dE is 0.4 with the highest being 0.8 . I do this via Calibrite where I load the ICC profile into the app and have it do validation.

I could be missing something here though.

OK, super simple:

- You're not meant to have your ICC profile in Photoshop as working space (or for that matter, embedded in any image). Your display profile is for mapping output, not your working space. Working space should be device-agnostic (can be the highest gamut possible but doesn't matter much since PS automatically makes calculations in CIELAB). This is effectively cancelling any color-management.

3

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-21, 16:45:02 »

I’m not sure. Sounds like a lot of hassle to me. For 1300 Euros, you’d expect everything to work smoothly out of the box. I might just stick with a cheaper IPS for now.

Yeah, they're sadly gaming and gaming-only monitors. Definitely not plug&play for work as of yet. But doable, since for archviz I don't think the setup is as critical as it is for print&photo/etc..

The only purely for work OLED monitor, based on bankrupted JOLED company (and their specific JOLED ink-printed panel, different from WOLED/QD-OLED), LG 32" OLED 32EP950 is discontinued and was very expensive, even discounted I've never seen it for less than 2500 Euro I think. It was also only 240 Nits and 60HZ and very, very strong matte foil (LG just loves to do this to monitors...).

I mean, these 4K 32"OLEDs came just this year, it's novelty. 1-2 years and it will be mainstream and we'll see artist or professional oriented models as well. (like Asus ProArt instead of Asus ROG, and LG UltraFine, Dell Ultrasharp, etc..).

4

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-21, 16:12:16 »

Hmm, so maybe I'm doing something wrong but here's the procedure:

- Create an ICC profile (via calibration etc)
- Load the ICC profile in Windows Color Management
- Start up 3ds Max, create a random color intense render and save a PNG file
- Open up Affinity (or PS), load up the saved render and make sure the ICC profile in Affinity / PS is set to the ICC (Explain?)
- Compare the VFB you have open with the file in Affinity / PS

So doing that I can see the Corona VFB matches the Affinity / PS document that is set to the ICC profile.

I've also tried live switching between the default sRGB Windows profile and the ICC I created and that also shows the difference as I switch between them.

Since I'm not touching any of the OCIO tools in any of the apps, could it be a Windows update that enabled this? :)

There is indeed auto-color management with latest Windows 11 update, or it's been there since January if you're on fast-track. I haven't tested it as I don't run these builds with it yet.
It's called..."auto-color management". https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/auto-color-management-in-windows-11-64a4de7f-9c93-43ec-bdf1-3b12ffa0870b

If not that, then there are few more things to consider:
- Do you have wide-gamut Display and are you running wide-gamut mode in OSD? (Native, or DCI-P3/AdobeRGB). Unless you have monitor that greatly exceeds sRGB color gamut, you will not see noticeable color shift. This shift would also be strongest in Red tones.
 ICC profile merely interprets color in OS, it runs on top of what the monitor's OSD is set to. That's why ICC is always paired to specific monitor mode, and if you switch it's not longer applicable. So for wide-gamut environment, you would run Native or specific wide-gamut mode in OSD, and then calibrate after that to ICC which matches the desired color-space. The possible working combination go from higher to lower (so Wide-Gamut to Low-gamut) or equal to equal (HG to HG or LG to LG).
- What do you mean "make sure the ICC profile is set", Working Space ? When you import file, you can convert to profile (which should be default settings if you don't get asked), or assign profile (which is meant to interpret colors when profile is missing). Since I am not on 2025 with OCIO, my 3dsMax (or Corona VFB for that matter) doesn't save with any color-profile attached to file formats.
- Your file (render) should be converted to space you intend to work in and the working space should like-wise be set to generic (non-device specific) color-space (sRGB or P3/AdobeRGB/.. for Wide-gamut. If you load your monitor ICC, you will disable color-management.


- If you want to be sure, set working environment in Photoshop to sRGB (that is default). On importing render, set the mode to "convert". On opening, convert the render to sRGB color-space. Make sure the auto-mode in Window is disabled if by any chance this latest update is on. And only after that, compare 3dsMax Corona VFB and your opened render.

I don't understand right now 100perc. which exact combination you're doing, but in my opinion you most probably negated color-management and are seeing incorrect (but identical) colors in both 3dsMax and PS. That's actually quite easy scenario to achieve. Seeing identical colors doesn't mean you have correct color-managed workflow pipeline.

It doesn't matter though, I can guarantee you 3dsMax until 2025 simply isn't color-managed, it can load Gamma 2.2 and that's about it. With the OLED I have right now, single-toggle of sRGB in NoVideo tool shows almost 20perc. perceptible difference in red saturation, matching the srgb coverage of WOLED panels (125perc. QD-OLED up to 150perc. even)

5

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-17, 13:39:31 »

I am 100perc. (no 99.9) that 3dsMax is non-calibrated until 2025 version, which does feature OCIO color management and capability to load color profiles. If Corona inside 3dsMax already respects that, I don't know, thought I have some doubts as I haven't seen any release note mentioning compatibility.

Cinema4D had color management for far longer time.

Regardless, NoVideoSRGBClamp is much better solution as it acts like 3D LUT inside OSD, it's super-imposed on top of everything else. It can also load ICC profiles too and do the same.

6

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-16, 17:08:49 »

Old Benq PD3200U. I pondered updating to some of the faster mini-led IPS panels but I found them quite mediocre (and expensive for such) so when OLED went mainstream this summer I decided now it's finally the time.

The WOLED based LG 32GS95UE-B was absolutely perfectly in every way almost except for the vignette crap (which LG calls "Convex Power Control", apparently to lower power draw, to save electricity.. ? It's not like the monitor doesn't have few additional classic OLED ABL algorithms that you can turn off, but you can't turn off the CPC).
I expect the PG32UCDP to be likewise perfect.

These are gaming monitors though, and they come with some wonky calibrations. The colors were good in all modes, but they feature slightly tweaked gamma profiles where all the profiles have stronger black-clip. This is imho done to make the contrast appear more impressive. OLED have infinite contrast in theory, but in practice, during daylight, there is no strong wow-effect (night-time is something else). So they made this weird 2.2 gamma which crushes blacks. Needs either custom calibration (but only LG offers hardware calibration, Asus relies on ICC profiles, so will be ignored by majority of Windows including Max/Corona) or using Blacks Stabilizer, which is boosts the blacks. That's not exactly calibration... but the result works.

For clamping colors to sRGB space during work, I am using https://github.com/ledoge/novideo_srgb instead of using the OSD profile, which find limited in functionality (and not exactly perfectly calibrated anyway).

At the moment, in 1000 to 2000 Euro budget, you can get mediocre "IPS Black" panels (Contrast 1:2000 is actually just 20perc. more contrast that typical 1:1000 IPS, because of logarithmic perception) with 60HZ and edge back-lighting, mostly so-called "Fast-IPS" panels which barely touch 1:1000 (usually they're 1:850-900 at best) at 120-144HZ at lower price range, or Mini-led based at upper price range, but even with 2000 Zones, you have to turn it off for any non-video work, it's just not sufficient, you would need like 20 000 zones at minimum on 32" monitor.

So 1200-1600 Euro for actual 4K 240HZ 270 Nits SDR brightness DCI-P3 color-gamut OLED monitor... that's pretty amazing. Compared to the above, which is just lot of money for subpar and inferior tech.

Another topic is the baby-sitting (hidden taskbar,etc.. )...

7

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-10-16, 16:17:23 »

My ASUS ROG Swift OLED PG32UCDP (not to be confused with QD-OLED panel based UCDM model) took unfortunately 2 more weeks to arrive, I've received it just yesterday. I've sent my 32GS95UE-B back 2 weeks ago as well.
But I presume they will be roughly identical, except for the ABL algorithms which can be fully turned off on Asus, but not on LG.

Shortly, LG implemented super-weird ABL that creates "Vignette" across like 60perc. of the screen, even with PeakBrightness OFF, so uniform SDR brightness.
That makes it impossible to do any professional graphic work because half of your screen is different brightness than the centre. It's not traditional ABL which turns up&down brightness across whole screen.

Because of that, the only WOLED-panel OLED monitor that can be used professionally, is the ASUS version, because Asus allows to turn all this crap OFF in OSD menu. For LG, you need to use special menu that voids warranty and also resets every-time the monitor as much as goes to sleep (so 20 times a day).

I wouldn't consider QD-OLED panels for work because lack of polarizer means they have purple tint in every daylight settings. I presume majority of us aren't gaming vampires so that is big no-no for color-critical work.

Funny thing is that despite the LG 32GS95UE-B and ASUS PG32UCDP being identical monitors, you can get the LG as low as 1100 EUR on Amazon and Asus is 1600+ Euro. ASUS tax in Europe..

8

General CG Discussion / Re: Have you seen Unreal Engine 5.5?

« on: 2024-10-04, 17:24:43 »

I still use Max/Corona mainly because of workflow features (Slicer mat, all the Include/Exclude tricks, Overrides, etc..), things that help Design&Architecture projects that have revisions being big part of the process.
And also because I need 100perc. precision, not even 99perc. would suffice. So the extra-level of detail/sampling/etc... that pure dedicated path-tracer engine outputs is still beneficial.

In faster, more purely result oriented work, I am not sure I wouldn't be using Unreal already. For something like Real-estate marketing, I think the switch would absolutely make sense. Faster visual development, super fast rendering, easy VR/Animation/etc.. outputs, etc..

Technical limit is meant in regard to computation (lower floating point precision) making sim. (algorithms) either more prone to errors or simpler, introducing more bias, less quality - physical incorrectness. Simple fact. Even regulatory standard for industrial simulations demands double precision.
It's good for games, imagery and illustrations, but lacks for predictive rendering, visual prototyping, engineering, ...

Can really agree with it. The more you are on the design side of the industry, the more is classic off-line renderer still valuable. The more is your work veering into pure marketing imagery, the more attractive Unreal and other real-time solutions look.

And then there are all the hybrids, like D5 renderer, etc.. I don't have time to test them, but they can be possible bridging solution.

9

Work in Progress/Tests / Re: Juraj's Renderings thread

« on: 2024-10-04, 15:08:52 »

Yes the beds are scans, the textures on top are also scan, so it's 2X Detail, and on top of that, AI can improve it further, but not without good 3D base.
I plan to upload one older bed for free soon. Just too much stuff going on in life :- )

10

[Max] Resolved Bugs / Re: Crash with OSL wParallax

« on: 2024-09-21, 10:22:38 »

In my opinion no, I stopped using almost all OSL, not just this one. The risk of random crash was just too high.

The alternative for Parallax planes OSL, is just .EXR mapped box. It works just as good, but requires positioning a box instead of just plane... it's less useful, but still useful.

11

Hardware / Re: Which Monitor is best?

« on: 2024-09-18, 08:21:31 »

That Dell is very good, the "black-IPS" panels are very decent, but the monitors are very expensive for what you get (which is just slightly better IPS..).

I will write review of recent WOLED monitors (OLED panels from LG, I tried both LG and Asus version). QD-OLED (the Samsung version without polarizer) is not good fit for work. I'll make a post next week.

12

[Max] I need help! / Re: material editor SLOW - i think its a CORONA issue?

« on: 2024-09-13, 11:01:32 »

Update from my testing:

- Show Textures in Viewport ON/OFF = No difference (using standard ShadedViewport, no HQ)
- Materials applied to scene or existing only in material editor = No difference
- Type of material, amount of textures = Some influence?

I have very optimized Windows setup. No ControlFlowGuard, Ultra-performance mode, higher-process priority for 3dsMax, no network setup (all files local, full-path mapped. It's nothing to do with this.
I have zero plugins in 3dsMax. It's not that either.

It's Corona/Corona materials.

I can replicate ultra-slow material editor with single object and two materials in material editors. Since to me even fresh resetted scene just swapping two default Corona Material Editors are like 1-2 seconds to switch.
It's nothing to do with my Windows or PC, 3dsMax Physical material take 0.0001 second to switch. It's instant. It's just Corona material that is immensely slow.

And once I start IR, it's just catastrophe. I don't remember if it was always like this.... but I've been on big PCs (Xeons, Threadrippers) for so long that the issue might have worsened with that, or with just later Corona versions. I don't know, I have no frame of reference. But it's massively frustrating.

13

Hardware / Re: AMD 9950x

« on: 2024-09-13, 10:53:05 »

Do you get smooth material editor? Switching CoronaPhysicalMaterials? In and Outside of Interactive Rendering.
I am pondering buying one just to test how much better it works compared to Threadripper.

14

[Max] I need help! / Re: material editor SLOW - i think its a CORONA issue?

« on: 2024-09-05, 13:18:35 »

I will oppose all the advice in this thread, because I can already tell you, it will not help. Any big-PC (Threadripper, Xeon, etc..) in high-core version, is pain like this in material editor unless as you correctly shown, you use native Physical Material.
Corona, will have super slow material editor in any remotely sized scene. And it's not snappy even in completely empty scene, unlike native.

This has absolutely nothing to do with proxies. This is technical issue on Corona's side that they just don't care about. I guess majority of users aren't on 64-core machines.

BTW, my settings:
Standard viewport (so no HQ)
Every big mesh is proxy. (most of long opening is due to bugs like "corona assets" etc.. and similar stuff, having proxies makes scenes smaller, but it hardly makes difference in opening after scenes start to feature bloat).
Viewport texture settings 1024px for all 3 types(laughably blurry, so despite having 16GB of Vram, I only use like 2GB per scene because otherwise everything will be even slower).
Basic material editor for editing materials. I only use Slate to create them, but because it's so slow, all the little changes (changing IOR 10perc. here or there, etc..) I do in basic.
All textures mapped locally, on local disc with exact paths.
No plugins whatsoever. No ForestPack, no nothing.
It doesn't matter which Max version. It's the same as long as I can remember. Really makes zero difference.

It's not anything else, it's Corona. Yes you are correct.

This does in no way help with slow material editor, and esp. slow material editor during IR. That's like unusable, I waste like 90perc. of my time and 99perc. of my mental health waiting on shit to unfreeze.
It's what it is :- (.

If it's really all because of QT, then that should have been tried ages ago.

One thing I never tested, if it's connected to materials being applied to scene ( and/or additionally, having "shown in viewport"). So I will test:
- disable show in viewport in big heavy scene
- dis-apply all materials (I don't know, apply them to single box and hide it) just keep big material editor full of materials.

15

Hardware / Re: Threadripper & Ryzen only builds (3rd Gen starts on page 50)

« on: 2024-09-03, 15:21:30 »

It looks solid. The retailer doesn't specify the memory, but I hopefully that is RDIMM (Registered ECC memory), which Threadripper now requires, and makes like 50perc. of the build price increase.
Threadrippers have become more expensive themselves, but the RDIMM memory is big part of it.

I believe the 32-core 7970X to be the sweetspot. All the cost that RDIMM + Motherboard eats up makes the 7960 quite poor value. If you're already spending 5K, might as well get the 32-core.
It's also the best performing one for daily tasks outside of pure rendering performance.

It's still worth it if it's the main PC for both work & rendering. But if you have rendering farm, I am not so sure anymore.