Author Topic: Poll - Do you profile your displays?  (Read 1308 times)

2024-11-28, 12:31:42

piotrus3333

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hello citizen of data driven world,
if You don't mind spending one minute of your valuable time I would be grateful. Brace for advertising content as somebody needs to pay for all this.

poll:
https://strawpoll.com/ajnE18evAnW

Thank you.
Marcin Piotrowski
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2024-11-29, 12:30:53
Reply #1

pokoy

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Interesting... pretty much 50/50 right now with 24 people.
In the music production world, if 50% of the people wouldn't care for proper monitoring and mastering much of the music would sound like reproduced through a tin box, proper input/output leveling and post production is a key factor. Not sure why the graphics world doesn't care too much, probably because our visual perception is much more forgiving than our auditory senses.
For example, I can see and recognize someone's face in the dark, different lighting conditions etc. But hearing just a bit of a difference in a voice you already know can cause a lot confusion pretty early.

2024-12-02, 13:35:18
Reply #2

TomG

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I wonder if it depends on the target? If ever you are doing something in print, then those folks profile. If the work will just be on displays, then those folks don't because every display will be differently set up so even with profiling you have no idea what the end customer will see (that is, not our users client, but their clients... e.g. render an image for a client who will put it on their website selling that apartment space / advertising the upcoming restaurant opening / etc. and the viewers of the website could end up seeing any old thing in terms of profile).
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
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2024-12-02, 14:30:48
Reply #3

piotrus3333

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I assumed bias towards profiling among people who clicked the link. so I guess only 1/3 or less (among mostly Max and some Maya users) put in the effort.

but true - interesting.
Marcin Piotrowski
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2024-12-02, 14:53:16
Reply #4

pokoy

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I wonder if it depends on the target? If ever you are doing something in print, then those folks profile. If the work will just be on displays, then those folks don't because every display will be differently set up so even with profiling you have no idea what the end customer will see (that is, not our users client, but their clients... e.g. render an image for a client who will put it on their website selling that apartment space / advertising the upcoming restaurant opening / etc. and the viewers of the website could end up seeing any old thing in terms of profile).
Nah, there's way more reason to properly profile your monitor. Proper black and white level alone can spare you some trouble.
In one or all of the Star Wars ep 1/2/3 (the new ones, not sure which ones anymore) you can see some hilarious black level misalignment where you can clearly see the cut out stance around space ships in some places. It's the most basic comp error there is, and it's all coming from people not caring about the display they use. Everyone assumes it's good enough if it has proper contrast. Now the fact that it slipped through ALL the stages after comp is telling, and to think no one caught it is just amazing. Wouldn't have happened with proper profiling, or even the most basic.

Ferrari and Coca-Cola will torture you for weeks to get their red color right. Sure, this is not the common job. But even in archviz, if you deliver your images and the sky is just a a bit too green or has too much magenta, the entire image is ruined imo.

2024-12-02, 16:45:27
Reply #5

TomG

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TY pokoy! Of course not saying that those folks delivering for web / digital viewing only SHOULDN'T color profile, just that maybe there is a belief that they don't need to (even if that belief is incorrect) and so they haven't done it :)
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
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2024-12-02, 16:49:14
Reply #6

Nejc Kilar

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I'm fairly new to the calibrating / profiling game (if you don't account for hardware calibrating) and what I'm noticing is that calibrating / profiling is just one part of the game. The other part is setting your applications to work correctly according to the profiles / calibration used.
Nejc Kilar | chaos-corona.com
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2024-12-06, 11:14:35
Reply #7

piotrus3333

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I'm fairly new to the calibrating / profiling game (if you don't account for hardware calibrating) and what I'm noticing is that calibrating / profiling is just one part of the game. The other part is setting your applications to work correctly according to the profiles / calibration used.

to be fair the ICC system is in theory quite "behind the scenes". profiling software usually takes care of loading the profile into Windows and done. everything just works. obviously it works as long as you stay within the ICC ecosystem...

Marcin Piotrowski
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2024-12-06, 15:45:24
Reply #8

lupaz

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I'm fairly new to the calibrating / profiling game (if you don't account for hardware calibrating) and what I'm noticing is that calibrating / profiling is just one part of the game. The other part is setting your applications to work correctly according to the profiles / calibration used.

to be fair the ICC system is in theory quite "behind the scenes". profiling software usually takes care of loading the profile into Windows and done. everything just works. obviously it works as long as you stay within the ICC ecosystem...


My understanding is that up until now that Max has color management, it was either useless or too complicated to work on ICC profiling, so people would get discouraged and abandon the idea, especially when some tell you that even your textures need to be profiled correctly in order for the whole thing to work.
In most cases it's time that doesn't get paid and you can get by really well without doing any of that.

I understand that it would be the proper thing to do, but in reality, as Tom said, in some fields of work clients just don't care about the perfect colors. They care about images that look great. That can be done without the extra technical work of color profiling.

I disagree that it's as if in music production they didn't care about mastering or whatever. The eye is more forgiving than the ear IMO.

Having said that...Is there a good an easy guide for those using Max and photoshop that shows the whole process of establishing the ICC ecosystem?




2024-12-06, 16:01:01
Reply #9

davetwo

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I always used to.
But I stopped bothering as monitors seem to be less 'off' these days and it's such a complicated subject (that 99.9% of clients and colleagues dont bother with either).
It is something that suffers a lot from prople trying to make things better and actually making them worse.

2024-12-06, 17:09:23
Reply #10

pokoy

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Yeah, I wish OCIO in Max was accompanied by something (ICC) with the print guys in mind, too.
As for ICC profiling, there are two ways:
1. Additional hardware - colorimeter, plugged in via USB - comes with software that'll guide you through the process and profile your monitor by displaying different colors on your display while measuring the results and calculating the profile from that. You can set it to different targets (luminance, gamuts etc).
The result is an ICC file. It'll then set your OS to use that ICC profile (or guide you through the process). You can use it on any display and you can use separate profiles for each display, too. Your display should however meet some standards in terms of the gamut, otherwise you may not get correct color reproduction. If your display only makes 80% of let's say the AdobeRGB gamut, your display will not be able to display all colors of AdobeRGB of course.
If you've done it once it's easy to repeat, which you should do every few weeks. Some places need high accuracy and will need do this on a weekly basis since displays tend to age.

2. A display with a built-in colorimeter (for example certain Eizo displays, I have one and it's fantastic). You profile it once to a target gamut. You can then set a timer to validate the profile automatically periodically, for example every friday at 3am.
The resulting profile is then - at least in the case of the display I own - stored in the display itself and the Eizo software will sync your OS to use it, too. The advantage is that the device is now calibrated independently - ie, you can plug any other PC to that monitor, it'll still look correct (you'd still have to take care of the OS to use that profile).
This is a very convenient and care-free solution and it's well worth the extra money. I'm talking about Eizo here but it may apply to other vendors.

In any case, I've been working for print a lot and it really helps to know that what you see is what you get. I agree you may not need that accuracy in display-only-times apps but whenever I talk to clients about colors, it really helps to know I'm on the right side of things and can quickly end any discussion once they realize their display/phone whatever is just not a proper device to judge colors.

I remember well working at a studio once and 3 of us were comping different shot where the same asset was in full display, each of us on a separate PC/display next to each other. It was a shiny red car with a very distinct color and each displayed the color differently. Everyone was tempted to correct it but no one was able to tell which display was closer to the truth since nothing was ever calibrated in that place. This problem is not present when you calibrate displays and is the no1 reason I always went with calibration since then.

2024-12-06, 17:21:37
Reply #11

piotrus3333

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OCIO sytem has support for ICC profiles. it’s just Max that does poor job supporting OCIO.

one way of going around it is adding the same functionality but with luts in custom ocio config.
Marcin Piotrowski
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2024-12-06, 17:45:00
Reply #12

pokoy

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OCIO sytem has support for ICC profiles. it’s just Max that does poor job supporting OCIO.

one way of going around it is adding the same functionality but with luts in custom ocio config.
Since you're an expert on this, what's your take - why is OCIO support in Max poor? I have no idea (still on max 2021 here), asking out of interest and would like to hear your opinion.

2024-12-06, 18:29:43
Reply #13

piotrus3333

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Since you're an expert on this, what's your take - why is OCIO support in Max poor? I have no idea (still on max 2021 here), asking out of interest and would like to hear your opinion.

no idea. I guess not the priority at the moment. Maya has still the same config from 2022 version for example. maybe the idea is ocio configs should be personalised anyway.

the colour focused Resolve only recently got full (or almost full) ocio support so it’s not like autodesk is an outlier.
but for reasons unknown they ship Max with one display transform (aces sdr), Maya with two yet VRED gets a few, AgX included.

important functionality missing:
OCIOLook transform (important for ACES)
virtual_display (important for everybody using icc profile)

Marcin Piotrowski
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2024-12-06, 18:43:18
Reply #14

pokoy

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Ah I see. I haven't looked too much at OCIO but it's crazy to me they go with one config and chose not to extend it with each update. Interesting to see May and VRED got a different treatment.
Both look transform and virtual display would be something I'd definitely like to see.

Some years ago I was in contact with the creator of VFB+, Rotem Shiffman, asking if he could update it to allow a color transform from a user-specified ICC profile. Well, it took him 2 days and it was in, worked and was perfect. Something Autodesk (and Corona, btw) haven't managed to add for way too long. Of course, this wouldn't care about input and rendering spaces etc. but the final step is already a huge help.

This is maybe another reason why people are not profiling or even just learn about the advantages - their expensive super-capable 3d app is worse at displaying colors than any image viewer or web browser which you can get for free. Isn't that just great.