Author Topic: Tried octane  (Read 6986 times)

2020-03-01, 21:27:16

siggemayn

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I was forced to choose Corona because I had a Mac. So I bought a beast of a pc, amd 16 core, 2x RTX 2080ti - thinking the only right thing to do was to go octane/redshift. Boy was I wrong - yes it's obviously faster, but takes so much more work to something to look just decent, off course I can't expect great results right from the bar with new software - but then I went back to Corona just for fun - immediately cancelled octane and went back to Corona - it's just so damn easy and fun to work with. vDB support would be nice, but it's ok I love the interface.

It bottles me why more people aren't using Corona at this point, is actually really fast on my new pc as well. Sometimes the grass just isn't greener on the other side.

Has anyone else tried to jump ship?
« Last Edit: 2020-03-02, 05:13:01 by siggemayn »

2020-03-02, 09:22:34
Reply #1

Nejc Kilar

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Heh, I really don't want to turn this thread into a "renderer vs renderer" thread but I would like to share my opinion as well. So to that end, I'll just throw a couple of things that I think Corona should do better and other renderers typically do better :)

- UVW transforms
We currently have super limited ways of doing UVW transforms and I totally think this is a Maxon oversight (resolved in R20 with the UVW node) but it is what it is. All of the other renderers have resolved this ages ago because you can't rely on the projector shader alone - It works locally and so each map you'd want to change you'd need to change independently. Imagine having a lot of maps and each was being driven by its own project shader - you scale one map you need and it works fine but scale multiple maps and you need to go in each one manually. Further complicating things, you perhaps change the mapping and ... All of the sudden, you need to go in each and every map in all of your materials.

What is even funkier is that the project shader is currently bugged so besides using a Layer -> Transform to scale maps, there virtually isn't a way to do this properly with Corona which makes it really hard to use for ... Well, anything complex really :D

- Opacity maps
Yep, I know we need to use Corona Bitmaps to increase the performance of materials with opacity maps. Still, it's buggy and wonky yet is one of the most crucial things a renderer can do.

So, typically you can stack materials in the object manager so that you can do things like decals and labels. You got a base material and then a material with an opacity map on top. Stacking itself works fine but it tanks performance ~10x. I went from renders taking 30 seconds to taking 1 hour.

Sure, you can apply a Corona bitmap to the opacity slot of that top material but it is again, unreliable. Sometimes it completely breaks material stacking in the object manager and you get a weird result out of it. Sometimes it appears to be working though.

Now, one could use a Corona layered material but that leads right into my other point about...

- Map previews
I don't think there is a renderer out there that doesn't have a feature that lets you preview the maps you are working on either in the viewport or in the IR. So take the layered material from the above - you have a base material and a label material on top. You used an opacity mask for the label material but you have _no idea_ how it maps onto the object.

Sure, you can use the final beauty IR but that only works on simpler objects and in simpler scenes.

What I typically end up doing is creating a normal c4d material, place that opacity map in the diffuse slot, apply it to the material and then map it to the object that way - because I can see it in the viewport.

Now sure, its a workaround and it isn't that time consuming but combine this with the fact that its troublesome to scale multiple maps in the first place (UVW transforms) and it becomes seriously tedious to do these types of things.

A simpler example would be doing a wood shader. You apply a dirty glossiness map on top of the wood glossiness map and now all of the sudden you don't know how that dirtiness map scales.

- IR reliability
I'm such a fan of the IR that Corona has, its crazy. I still remember the early 3ds Max alphas and it being one of the first CPU renderers with an IR option - certainly the most feature full at the time. Still, I often find the C4D version to be unreliable. It starts resetting randomly when you have Xpresso tags in your scenes, it sometimes randomly forgets to do Bump maps properly until you restart it, material overrides can still be buggy and don't update properly... It has actually happened to me that I was working on an object with the IR being turned on, 20 minutes later I do a final render and it looks -completely- different. I get it, sometimes it won't update properly but I find other renderers to be much more reliable in this regard.

- Node Edtior
So this one is a major pet peeve of mine because I just don't think it is ready for prime time yet. Anytime I've used it for more than 10 minutes I've gotten corrupted materials in the IR (random colors pop up) or corrupted materials in the nodal editor. I simply don't feel confident using it because if I spend 20 minutes working on a shader and it then bugs out beyond repair (nodes literally get lost), I just can't bill that to the client. I haven't used it with team rendering yet but I'm still hearing that its not totally reliable there either.

So yeah, I wanted to throw these out there because personally (well, and some of my colleagues and clients) these are the things that keep making me use other renderers. Quite honestly, for projects that require complex material making and where I want to be effective during work (reliable features) I actually prefer renderers that crash often (khm khm :P ) :P

I'm a really big fan of the Corona renderer, I was here since the beginning of the 3ds Max plugin - I'm really excited about all the stuff that is happening to the renderer. Still, with that said, I do want to be critical and hopefully help improve the product. I know the devs don't have it easy and even Maxon could do a better job with some of the above and offer native tools and options but let's face it - that just isn't the case right now. That said, what is important to note is that most other renderers have resolved these things internally - they are basic things that a renderer needs to have imho.

So yeah, I hope this doesn't come off as too negative or something. I just took 20 minutes off a busy day to write it all up so that it hopefully helps someone :) I'd also like to point out that the users that I interact with share similar sentiments although they aren't hanging around these parts :)

edit: oh and... Multi instances ;)
« Last Edit: 2020-03-02, 09:53:42 by Nejc Kilar »
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2020-03-02, 10:04:25
Reply #2

leo3d

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Buy a threadripper 3990X and you ll see that Corona is very faster ;)

2020-03-02, 15:26:16
Reply #3

Stefan-L

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i also own all available renders on c4d, and we in our studio for the work we do(archviz) proudly use vray or corona on cpu (yes mostly on tr2+tr3 cpus),, and are very happy with it.

i think in the end today which renderer you use is like choosing like a camera brand, canon, nikon, sony, etc, in the right hand all can do really good work,
today it mostly depends it on the artist, - on modelling, setting lights, camera views, make materials and so on....

Stefan
« Last Edit: 2020-03-02, 19:16:19 by lllab »

2020-03-02, 16:11:33
Reply #4

Nejc Kilar

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i also own all available renders on c4d, and we in our studio for the work we do(archviz) proudly use vray or corona on cpu (yes mostly on tr2+tr3 cpus),, and are very happy with it.

i think in the end today shich renderer you use is like choosing like a camera brand, canon, nikon, sony, etc, in the right hand all can do really good work,
today it mostly depends it on the artist, - on modelling, setting lights, camera views, make materials and so on....

Stefan

I agree and respectfully disagree at the same time :) You can create literally anything these days with pretty much any renderer - Even with Mental Ray as we've seen years ago, even before Corona came to be. In my opinion, Corona just makes a lot of things easier and it does some things extremely well.

Still, if I need to spend 20 minutes carefully guessing Transform values to get my masks to  align, that to me is seriously wasted time, especially so if it comes from my billable hours. That is a fairly basic task really.

Conversely, having renders go from 5 minutes to 1 hour because I wanted to put a couple of labels on an object can be seriously detrimental to a workflow especially considering it is taken for granted in "competing packages"+ the 3ds Max version of Corona too. I know C4D is fairly hard to work with but again, everyone else solved these issues years ago :\

Don't get me wrong, I'm a really big supporter of Corona because it does so many things awesomely well but I feel like we need to patch some fairly big holes still - especially if we want to enable users to do complex things easily and even more importantly, reliably.

To use your analogy, I think its a bit like choosing a Nikon camera that does amazing pictures (!!) but in order to take pictures with flash turned on you need to duck tape a couple of things together hoping it'll work instead of just pressing a button.
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2020-03-02, 20:01:30
Reply #5

Designerman77

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i also own all available renders on c4d, and we in our studio for the work we do(archviz) proudly use vray or corona on cpu (yes mostly on tr2+tr3 cpus),, and are very happy with it.

i think in the end today shich renderer you use is like choosing like a camera brand, canon, nikon, sony, etc, in the right hand all can do really good work,
today it mostly depends it on the artist, - on modelling, setting lights, camera views, make materials and so on....

Stefan

I agree and respectfully disagree at the same time :) You can create literally anything these days with pretty much any renderer - Even with Mental Ray as we've seen years ago, even before Corona came to be. In my opinion, Corona just makes a lot of things easier and it does some things extremely well.

Still, if I need to spend 20 minutes carefully guessing Transform values to get my masks to  align, that to me is seriously wasted time, especially so if it comes from my billable hours. That is a fairly basic task really.

Conversely, having renders go from 5 minutes to 1 hour because I wanted to put a couple of labels on an object can be seriously detrimental to a workflow especially considering it is taken for granted in "competing packages"+ the 3ds Max version of Corona too. I know C4D is fairly hard to work with but again, everyone else solved these issues years ago :\

Don't get me wrong, I'm a really big supporter of Corona because it does so many things awesomely well but I feel like we need to patch some fairly big holes still - especially if we want to enable users to do complex things easily and even more importantly, reliably.

To use your analogy, I think its a bit like choosing a Nikon camera that does amazing pictures (!!) but in order to take pictures with flash turned on you need to duck tape a couple of things together hoping it'll work instead of just pressing a button.


Hmmm... I never noticed 10X more render time because of stacking a material with opacity map on top of another one in C4D + Corona...
Just noticed that it messes up the displacement map below it (somehow pushes the displ.-mapping aside... it´s not in place anymore ).

I guess I´ll do a quick test on that stacking problem you mentioned.

However... in my opinion there is a much worse problem in Corona C4D: Corona "high quality" denoiser doing way less denoising on bump maps and round edge-map than on the rest of the scene.
I reported that multiple times to the devs - since it literally made working impossible for me until the devs introduced the AI denoiser... Thanks God they did... otherwise I would have changed to Arnold.
However, because of that strange "high quality" denoiser, I lost weeks of work and money last year!






2020-03-02, 20:26:32
Reply #6

johnnyswedish

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Hi siggemayn!

I used VRay before... The complexity of settings and texture rules were beyond what I have time for. I work on SILLY deadlines and have to bash out great results in no time 😭. OMG.. One client a year that gives you time and understanding... With CORONA you can past C4D projects straight in. CORONA to me is the only renderer we can trust and get fab results... FAST and to client deadlines. F, me, I would love to have time and tweak and tweak until my ❤️ is content. Here is to the CORONA DEVELOPERS 🥳🥳🥳🥳🙏👍 John

2020-03-02, 21:23:07
Reply #7

Nejc Kilar

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@Designerman77
Yeah, I'm finding that the more you stack the worse it gets. I'm talking going from 20million rays per second to like 500.000 and less.

Afaik the denoiser is tuned to treat certain shaders differently so that it can retain details there without smearing them too quickly. Whether that is a good thing or a bad is a good question but personally, I tend to aim for 2-3% noise thresholds and so the denoiser basically does very little. Maybe check out the Nvidia or Intel denoisers?

@johnnyswedish
For cranking up fast renders I too have very little to say with regards to Corona. It's the more complex projects that I find harder to work with because of the above :) And yeah, V-Ray came a long way too, give it a shot in 3ds Max ;)
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2020-03-02, 22:10:54
Reply #8

Stefan-L

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"I used VRay before... The complexity of settings and texture rules were beyond what I have time for."

vray since years has ZERO settings (one uses always the defaults), so same simple as in corona ;)
corona has a nice IPR and light mix, which is an advantage over the current vray of course.

i also never have seen 10x slower in stacking, not sure which cases that would be.

for denoiser we build outself a small intel denoiser tool as c4d plugin which i use if i need a denoiser(denoises images from disc)
 i never use the ones build in with the renders.
« Last Edit: 2020-03-02, 22:21:33 by lllab »

2020-03-04, 01:42:08
Reply #9

Designerman77

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@Designerman77
Yeah, I'm finding that the more you stack the worse it gets. I'm talking going from 20million rays per second to like 500.000 and less.

Afaik the denoiser is tuned to treat certain shaders differently so that it can retain details there without smearing them too quickly. Whether that is a good thing or a bad is a good question but personally, I tend to aim for 2-3% noise thresholds and so the denoiser basically does very little. Maybe check out the Nvidia or Intel denoisers?


I did so many tests with the "high quality" denoiser... man , I could write a book. Fact is: it does not denoise round edges even at low noise numbers.
So images literally fall apart in two pieces... namely areas with bump map and round edges vs. much cleaner looking areas without bump&round edge.

However, as mentioned - thanks God the devs introduced the AI denoiser, otherwise I would have left Corona.

Different "treatment" of noise would really make sense in darker areas, such as room corners, etc. There the noise is still visible long after lighter areas are optical noise-free.
I proposed this to the developers one or two times... but only received reasons why "it´s okay how it is now"...




2020-03-04, 01:45:01
Reply #10

Designerman77

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"I used VRay before... The complexity of settings and texture rules were beyond what I have time for."

vray since years has ZERO settings (one uses always the defaults), so same simple as in corona ;)
corona has a nice IPR and light mix, which is an advantage over the current vray of course.

i also never have seen 10x slower in stacking, not sure which cases that would be.

for denoiser we build outself a small intel denoiser tool as c4d plugin which i use if i need a denoiser(denoises images from disc)
 i never use the ones build in with the renders.



I am curious how your self-developed denoiser works...

2020-03-04, 01:47:04
Reply #11

Designerman77

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Generally: the images I have seen so far from Octane mostly looked colder and more technical in terms of light calculation, light atmosphere.
Corona has a very pleasant lighting.
Arnold seems to have more natural lighting compared to Octane... at least for my eyes.

2020-03-04, 11:19:37
Reply #12

Stefan-L

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"I am curious how your self-developed denoiser works..."

ok, i try to make a simple 30sec video on it next days.  it works very simple.
you find it here in my shop:  https://3dtools.info/shop/denoiser-inteloptix-for-c4d-1920/ 

atm it is win only sadly ( we plan to make a mac version to as some requested this)

basically we made it as c4d post effect, you simply choose and and can set % to blend with original.
it is intentional a tool with almost no setting.

it can denoise the render result in PV, or you can open saved images from disc (also many at once) and denoise and save them to as copy to disc again via the c4d picture viewer. 
it uses the intel denoiser code internally which i think is quite nice, at least for our work the solution i prefer if i need to denoise, in special with the blending option.
works with images from any engine that uses pathtracing (corona, vray, etc).

cheers
Stefan

2020-03-04, 15:00:04
Reply #13

TomG

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Just as a note, the Intel Optix denoiser is what Corona's "Intel CPU AI" option uses.
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2020-03-04, 16:57:52
Reply #14

Stefan-L

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yes i thouht so actually.

we use it not only with corona, but also other renders, and we usually render and then denoise the saved images from disc to fine tune them (via our own little tool). is probably more about (our) workflow
« Last Edit: 2020-03-05, 20:12:11 by lllab »