Author Topic: Threadripper & Ryzen only builds (3rd Gen starts on page 50)  (Read 225979 times)

2019-07-31, 01:08:14
Reply #495

twoheads

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Interesting things you write about Ryzen9 3950X indeed, and big thanks for overheating my brain in the middle of the night ;)

It seems new threadrippers + MOBo's will be expensive (hence, too expensive for my budget) so for now i guess it's not the direction I'm heading.  I know it's hard nut to crack but what would you do in my situation? seriously 2990wx or 3950X with 64GB? Is PCIe4 worth waiting, will I utilize it's all potential? 3950X sounds tempting but still 2990 means more cores = shorter render times.

RTX 2070 "super" looks good, and the price is fine.

You mentioned water cooling before, is there any reasonable solution other than custom made visibly better than Noctua UH14S?
Coolant + expensive parts it's no go zone for me anyway, but I had to ask.
 

2019-07-31, 08:36:02
Reply #496

engiu

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Hi guys, small OT: in the BIOS I have the memory frequency set to auto but theoretically RAM goes at 2133Mhz (as you can see from the picture). Should I force it to 3000Mhz? I have the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz. Thanks.

P.S.: I have two 32GB (2x16GB) kits, 64GB overall.
« Last Edit: 2019-07-31, 09:15:14 by engiu »

2019-07-31, 12:12:46
Reply #497

Juraj

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Interesting things you write about Ryzen9 3950X indeed, and big thanks for overheating my brain in the middle of the night ;)

It seems new threadrippers + MOBo's will be expensive (hence, too expensive for my budget) so for now i guess it's not the direction I'm heading.  I know it's hard nut to crack but what would you do in my situation? seriously 2990wx or 3950X with 64GB? Is PCIe4 worth waiting, will I utilize it's all potential? 3950X sounds tempting but still 2990 means more cores = shorter render times.

RTX 2070 "super" looks good, and the price is fine.

You mentioned water cooling before, is there any reasonable solution other than custom made visibly better than Noctua UH14S?
Coolant + expensive parts it's no go zone for me anyway, but I had to ask.

I will start with the easiest answers first :- )

Custom loop is indeed expensive, mine costed 900 Euro (with fans) and just two weeks ago I had to completely rebuild this (!!), not just take it apart...but to take all the individual parts apart as well. Because there was ton of algae everywhere, everything was green!
So much for me trusting EKWB that the parts are "ready to use" (without cleaning fully).

Aftermarket ready to use solution is only Thermaltake LiqTech II 360. The latest revision (of this second "II" generation, so fourth revision in total since it came to market 2 years ago) is supposedly safe and it is lot more powerful than Noctua U14S ( less than 10C temperture delta when normalized to same accoustic performance I would say).
But the bad taste remains, the reputation was set and.. you just have to trust it. Costs 2x more than Noctua which is good price for its performance. I don't think there is risk the latest one will leak, but there is chance you will have to warranty it after year because of internal build-up of (rust/algae/..). No one can tell.

Ryzen 3950X vs 2990WX. Until early tests come in, it's hard to tell. It might definitely be a better buy, at least for those who will always only need 64GB total memory, since you can get 4x16 2933-3200MHz CL14-CL15. It's hard to tell how it will perform with those 32GB DIMMs at 128GB configuration, and if anyone will test it so you won't have to be guinea pig.
(It was infuriating to me when all the testers tested 2990WX with 32GB Kits, sorry this is not for gaming what are you doing guys...)

Regarding PCI 4.0, those are completely useless for now and for near future as well. You would still have to buy X570 instead of X470 because of better VRMs. The best X470 boards have 6+2 (CPU + Memory) Phases, while X570 will come with 14+ Phases, just like the best boards for 2990WX (MEG/Alpha). All the Ryzens Gen3 are ok with X470, but I would say 3950X will definitely need the VRM. It's 105W on base clock only, it will definitely be 180+ W in full turbo.

« Last Edit: 2019-07-31, 12:16:57 by Juraj Talcik »
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2019-07-31, 12:35:34
Reply #498

Juraj

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Hi guys, small OT: in the BIOS I have the memory frequency set to auto but theoretically RAM goes at 2133Mhz (as you can see from the picture). Should I force it to 3000Mhz? I have the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz. Thanks.

P.S.: I have two 32GB (2x16GB) kits, 64GB overall.

You can try loading XMP profile first and see if it's stable. Usually there are two profiles (XMP1 & XMP2, the second being usually faster). XMP will set frequency, timings but also lot of other stuff, if that proves problematic, you can set timings and frequency manually.

Set it to 2933, not 3000. Both will work but the first is native multiplier for Ryzen.
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2019-07-31, 15:02:35
Reply #499

engiu

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Hi guys, small OT: in the BIOS I have the memory frequency set to auto but theoretically RAM goes at 2133Mhz (as you can see from the picture). Should I force it to 3000Mhz? I have the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz. Thanks.

P.S.: I have two 32GB (2x16GB) kits, 64GB overall.

You can try loading XMP profile first and see if it's stable. Usually there are two profiles (XMP1 & XMP2, the second being usually faster). XMP will set frequency, timings but also lot of other stuff, if that proves problematic, you can set timings and frequency manually.

Set it to 2933, not 3000. Both will work but the first is native multiplier for Ryzen.

Thanks,
there's no way to set any XMP profile in BIOS...if I set only the frequency to 2933Mhz?

2019-07-31, 15:24:45
Reply #500

Juraj

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Hi guys, small OT: in the BIOS I have the memory frequency set to auto but theoretically RAM goes at 2133Mhz (as you can see from the picture). Should I force it to 3000Mhz? I have the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz. Thanks.

P.S.: I have two 32GB (2x16GB) kits, 64GB overall.

You can try loading XMP profile first and see if it's stable. Usually there are two profiles (XMP1 & XMP2, the second being usually faster). XMP will set frequency, timings but also lot of other stuff, if that proves problematic, you can set timings and frequency manually.

Set it to 2933, not 3000. Both will work but the first is native multiplier for Ryzen.

Thanks,
there's no way to set any XMP profile in BIOS...if I set only the frequency to 2933Mhz?

Of course there is, it's usually right on the front page, in EZ mode.

But you can set it manually yes, just set the timings as well.
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2019-07-31, 17:28:58
Reply #501

cjwidd

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I have reviewed the majority of this thread as I prepare a new PC build for my home workstation - thank you all so much for sharing your thoughts.

If possible, I would like to assemble new and older parts to save some money, please see below:

NEW
CPU: AMD Threadripper 2950X 3.5 GHz 16-Core Processor            
CPU COOLER: Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3 82.52 CFM CPU Cooler            
MOTHERBOARD: Asus ROG ZENITH EXTREME ALPHA EATX TR4
MEMORY: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64 GB (4 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory
PSU: SeaSonic PRIME Gold 1300 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply

OLD
CASE: Corsair 750D ATX Full Tower Case
GPU: Asus GeForce GTX 1070 8 GB Video Card
CASE FANS: Noctua NF-F12 PWM 54.97 CFM 120 mm Fan

1. Are there any obvious, outstanding issues with this build?
2. The 2990WX is out of my price range at the moment, but is there a reason to upgrade to the 2970wx vs. the 2950x? As I understand it, the 2970wx inherits some of the issues from the 2990wx without improving significantly above the 2950x(?)
3. What is the prevailing issue with Threadripper builds and Corona? I have seen multiple reports of less than satisfied customers reporting Corona benchmarks for Threadripper builds; it seems the issue surrounds total available RAM and / or PSU.

« Last Edit: 2019-07-31, 17:32:19 by cjwidd »

2019-07-31, 18:06:44
Reply #502

Juraj

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I would say the build is good.

My thoughts on 2950X vs 2970WX vs 2990WX:

2950X right now is the weakest of the CPU in multithreading, but has the same single-core performance for workstation tasks like viewport or Photoshop, and can actually even be faster here than 2970WX/2990WX.
It's also weaker than the upcoming 16-core Ryzen9 3950X. But there are still reasons to go for weaker Threadripper when stronger Ryzen is available:

- You want to upgrade to Threadripper 3xxxx series when they come. With powerful board like MEG or Alpha, you will be able to support the upcoming 32core "3990WX" (I don't know how they will call it) which will have better architecture and stronger single-core performance than 2990WX, potentially more threads per physical core (rumors). The boards will probably won't be powerful enough for any potential 48/64c versions if such would come, as that will require even more than 16 phases. (28core i9 is good example, the crazy boards have 28 phases, ridiculous but necessary).
- You want 128 GB (8x16) memory. As I wrote above, Ryzen can take 128 GB as well, but only in slower 32GB modules right now on market.
- You could potentially go for even cheaper 1950X if you want to upgrade to 3xxx series in Q4/2019/Q1/2020.

If you don't plan to ever upgrading to 2990WX/3xxx series, than you don't need MEG/Alpha type of boards and can by any cheap <200 Euro board for x399. Even tiny mATX and build yourself a portable PC :- ).

"Corona issues":
- Corona is lot more memory bandwidth demanding than any other synthetic benchmarks on market. Hence the difference between CinebenchR15 score and Corona results. CinebenchR20 is better, but still doesn't utilize much of the memory bandwidth.
- Lot of people bought slow memory or didn't set the memory to correct speed in bios. Threadripper absolutely needs 2933MHz (CL14-CL16). It could potentially benefit little bit from 3200 MHz but this speed is just not stable in 128 GB configuration, and questionably in 64GB configuration when rendering something intensive (like denoising in Corona).
- The whole architecture due to infinity fabric seems to have some issues to reach its true potential. This isn't anything major, the CPUs still kick major ass due to their price but... Corona simply works faster on Intel at the moment ("Conspiracy" = It's on Intel's framework so, but maybe it's not related at all :- ).
- We can wait to see how this behave with Zen2 when someone buys them for Corona. The architecture has improved.


- Maybe, just maybe, X599 platform for Threadrippers 3xxx will feature 8-channel ? Who knows, that would solve some issues with Corona rendering.

Threadripper is still the best choice as 2990WX beats i9 7980XE/9980XE (I have both) and the only Intel which is faster is the crazy expensive 28-core W3175X and even that is very debatable as the chip is so power hungry it absolutely needs water cooling. And that is outside the fact that the chip sells for 3499 Euro, the boards cost 1799 Euro and it requires expensive 6-channel memory kits and either 500 Euro AIO custom made by Asetec, or 900 Euro custom loop like I did for my PCs. So the whole thing is 2-3x more expensive for  what 5 perc. better ?

Here is how they compare for those interested:

2990WX @ 4.1 GHz (maximum non-LN2 overclock), roughly 600W output. 34 Seconds in Benchmark.
3175X @ 4.5 GHz (maximum non-LN2 overclock) roughly 1200+ (!!!!) W Output. 30-32 Seconds. The Aquarium chiller than Intel used to cool their exhibition PC had 1600W cooling capacity. This shit is impossible to use under table.

The crazy Intel is 10perc. faster in Corona (and less than 5perc. in everything else) only when you massively overclock it to point where it eats double the juice and outputs 3 times the heat.

It's not contender. 2990WX might not live up to dreamy potential but it still absolutely kicks Intel ass to curb. It's not even comparable for anyone who is not shilling for Intel. 3 times the heat, 3 times the price. So much for fight. Long live the Threadripper :- ).
« Last Edit: 2019-07-31, 18:24:48 by Juraj Talcik »
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2019-07-31, 18:46:16
Reply #503

engiu

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Hi guys, small OT: in the BIOS I have the memory frequency set to auto but theoretically RAM goes at 2133Mhz (as you can see from the picture). Should I force it to 3000Mhz? I have the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz. Thanks.

P.S.: I have two 32GB (2x16GB) kits, 64GB overall.

You can try loading XMP profile first and see if it's stable. Usually there are two profiles (XMP1 & XMP2, the second being usually faster). XMP will set frequency, timings but also lot of other stuff, if that proves problematic, you can set timings and frequency manually.

Set it to 2933, not 3000. Both will work but the first is native multiplier for Ryzen.

Thanks,
there's no way to set any XMP profile in BIOS...if I set only the frequency to 2933Mhz?

Of course there is, it's usually right on the front page, in EZ mode.

But you can set it manually yes, just set the timings as well.

Found it! Thanks, now they're working at the right speed!

2019-07-31, 21:59:16
Reply #504

twoheads

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Interesting things you write about Ryzen9 3950X indeed, and big thanks for overheating my brain in the middle of the night ;)

It seems new threadrippers + MOBo's will be expensive (hence, too expensive for my budget) so for now i guess it's not the direction I'm heading.  I know it's hard nut to crack but what would you do in my situation? seriously 2990wx or 3950X with 64GB? Is PCIe4 worth waiting, will I utilize it's all potential? 3950X sounds tempting but still 2990 means more cores = shorter render times.

RTX 2070 "super" looks good, and the price is fine.

You mentioned water cooling before, is there any reasonable solution other than custom made visibly better than Noctua UH14S?
Coolant + expensive parts it's no go zone for me anyway, but I had to ask.

I will start with the easiest answers first :- )

Custom loop is indeed expensive, mine costed 900 Euro (with fans) and just two weeks ago I had to completely rebuild this (!!), not just take it apart...but to take all the individual parts apart as well. Because there was ton of algae everywhere, everything was green!
So much for me trusting EKWB that the parts are "ready to use" (without cleaning fully).

Aftermarket ready to use solution is only Thermaltake LiqTech II 360. The latest revision (of this second "II" generation, so fourth revision in total since it came to market 2 years ago) is supposedly safe and it is lot more powerful than Noctua U14S ( less than 10C temperture delta when normalized to same accoustic performance I would say).
But the bad taste remains, the reputation was set and.. you just have to trust it. Costs 2x more than Noctua which is good price for its performance. I don't think there is risk the latest one will leak, but there is chance you will have to warranty it after year because of internal build-up of (rust/algae/..). No one can tell.

Ryzen 3950X vs 2990WX. Until early tests come in, it's hard to tell. It might definitely be a better buy, at least for those who will always only need 64GB total memory, since you can get 4x16 2933-3200MHz CL14-CL15. It's hard to tell how it will perform with those 32GB DIMMs at 128GB configuration, and if anyone will test it so you won't have to be guinea pig.
(It was infuriating to me when all the testers tested 2990WX with 32GB Kits, sorry this is not for gaming what are you doing guys...)

Regarding PCI 4.0, those are completely useless for now and for near future as well. You would still have to buy X570 instead of X470 because of better VRMs. The best X470 boards have 6+2 (CPU + Memory) Phases, while X570 will come with 14+ Phases, just like the best boards for 2990WX (MEG/Alpha). All the Ryzens Gen3 are ok with X470, but I would say 3950X will definitely need the VRM. It's 105W on base clock only, it will definitely be 180+ W in full turbo.



Geeeez, I sympathize with you man. It Sounds like joke but not funny one. Its a shame you pay 900 euros for premium AiO and you get Baltic sea instead.


Anyway, the balance tips to 2990WX + 128 GB for now. I really want to get rid of constant worry "do I have enough ram for this or that".

2019-08-01, 01:36:59
Reply #505

cjwidd

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Thank you so much Juraj, as always, I really appreciate your help

2019-08-01, 06:19:37
Reply #506

Vlad L

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I don't know if it is still reasonable to buy 2950x as 3900x is only a bit weaker in corona benchmark being twice cheaper and not demanding a more expensive MB and cooling and of course with a higher single core perfomance and I suppose better OC capacity. Only, as Juraj said, in order to upgrade it with less expense in the future. One more advantage of the threadrippers is 64 pci lanes but it matters only if you're going to build a multi-GPU build in the future (looking at these real-time videos of UE4 RTX interiors you may want to get one)

2019-08-01, 11:28:00
Reply #507

Juraj

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I would not buy 3900X unless money was very strong concern. Upgrading in future to 16-core, which I believe will be the highest core amount Ryzen for next two years at least, would not make sense financially and it's still just 12-core.
It is on par with 16-core Threadrippers, but those can be upgraded up to 32-core versions (2990WX and "3990WX" or what it's going to be called) with current board on markets.

In my opinion it's either 3950X in September, 1950/2950X if you plan to upgrade the CPU later, or 2990WX.
I would decided based on memory and upgradability.

The PCI lanes don't really matter for GPU computing either, they don't send much data through, you can run them at 4x lanes and your Vray-GPU or F-Storm score will not change.
NVLink (if buying 2080/2080ti) is lot more important for GPU renderers that support the feature.

And since NVLink is only 2-card connection, both AM4 and TR4 platforms will do equally well. TR4 offers quad-GPU setup, but because MEG and Alpha have bigger VRMs on top, they don't have space for dual quad-slots so 4-Gpus in NVLink is impossible on all but Aorus board.
This will not change in future, as the only way how to get 4 PCI dual-slots and big VRM is to get board that is even bigger than E-ATX, i.e EEB formats like ROG DOMINUS for W-3175X.

3950X will paradoxically require 300 +/- Euro board out of it as well, and same strong Noctua Tower, so MB + Cooling costs are the same as Threadripper (MEG is only 400 Euro board right now).

I have seen lot of reviews for 3900X, the current Zen2 Ryzens are not overclockable. The boosts are already as high as the bins allowed. The CPU will be as fast as the one you get.
And truth be told, I think the same of 2970WX/2950WX, the PBO is only worth it for mildly faster renderings if you don't have farm but single-core is already at its highest regardless (It will not go higher than 4.1 GHz, that's where the architecture limit  lies).

And of course, fixed-core multiplier is bullshit. 3.5 GHz all-core & 4.1GHz single-core is MUCH better than 3.8 GHz for both. 5-10 perc. faster renderings are not worth sacrificing Workstation performance. Workstation needs to be responsive, not provide little bit more rendering speed.
« Last Edit: 2019-08-01, 11:52:43 by Juraj Talcik »
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2019-08-01, 11:52:09
Reply #508

Nejc Kilar

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Small correction Juraj, PCI-E lanes can matter for different reasons.

1) There is a noticeable speed difference when working with x4 or x8. It isn't a make it or break it type of a thing but if I recall correctly Puget Systems did some tests and it gets to ~10% difference. It also depends on how big the scene is and how big of a VRAM pool you have (24GB will need more time to fill than say 4GB - Something I don't recall Puget taking into the account).

There is a negligable difference between x8 and x16 though - at least on consumer cards.

That being said, with PCI-E 4.0 the PCI-E 3.0 x8 becomes PCI-E 4.0 x4 so there is that I guess. <- Fun sentence.

2) You can technically get 2 x 2 NVLink going but remember, for NVLink to be enabled on consumer cards you need to enable SLI. To enable four way SLI though you'll need a supported motherboard and for SLI you need at least PCI-E 3.0 x8 on each slot. Even then though you'll need to do a little headless GPU magic to get NVLink going on 4 cards.

Now I'm not sure if you really need that SLI certification for 4-Way SLI but I guess I'd trust Nvidia that they've artificially locked it like that.

This doesn't apply to current TR motherboards as much as it does to dual socket Epyc / Xeon systems because those usually have like 4-8 PCI-E slots with no SLI certifications but can support at least x8 even when all are populated.

Hope I'm making sense here :)

(Puget link: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/NVIDIA-GeForce-RTX-2080-Ti-PCI-Express-Lane-Scaling-in-OctaneRender-and-Redshift-1259/)

2019-08-01, 11:57:06
Reply #509

Juraj

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Are you kidding me, you seriously nitpick for this ? Let's look at this graph shall we ;- )



1 PERCENT. Everything I said absolutely stands. Where did you see 10perc., when comparing Redshift 1 Lane vs 16 Lanes ? That's such unrealistic scenario.

Whatever...you said your "achtually", I hope it was useful for someone. I am back to work. I guess I will need to write 10 disclaimers that I don't mean everything literally and that I write shortcuts for practical meaning.

Quote
2) You can technically get 2 x 2 NVLink going but remember,

And I didn't say anything regarding to this. I mentioned it being 2-card link as restricting factor in motherboard layout. There is no X570 & X399 board that has both strong VRM and 4 dual PCI-e slots, because such layout is physically impossible.
And how it will likewise won't change for x599.
In fact I mentioned Aorus as outlier which can get two NV-Links running in theory, so I never alluded that you can't use multiple NV-Links, whatever the conditions of their use are.

So for mainstream users (and people in this thread are debating Ryzens/Threadrippers and GTX/RTX cards), 4x2080ti Layout with strong CPU is much harder to get going than it was for previous gen CPUs and 4x1080ti. So I wouldn't worry much about MB choice, and just live with fact that two strong RTX cards in NVLink will be best choice in workstation unless you're on server platform.

For practical reasons, CGI artist absolutely doesn't need to care about PCI-lanes on AM4 vs TR4, whether he is using GPU rendering or not.
« Last Edit: 2019-08-01, 12:09:14 by Juraj Talcik »
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