Monitor Calibration

[Bowcutt1]

Hi All,

I have been looking into monitor calibration with hope that it will improve my workflow and result in better quality images.

My monitor is a dell U2713h

My observations so far are:

1 - Once calibrated colour managed software such as Photoshop, Coreldraw and Google Chrome (I think) etc look washed out in comparison to what i'm used to seeing in windows image viewer or Corona. It makes me think they look wrong in the colour managed application when I'm guessing they are in fact correct?

2 - What is the point of having a workflow where I spend hours getting everything to look correct in the corona frame buffer but then open it up in Photoshop and it looks completely different? IS there a workaround for this?

3 - Most people wont be viewing images on a colour managed screen but instead on a sRGB screen where my images will look over saturated and too contrasty.

4 - Unless I am specifically working for print or for a final output that I think will be colour managed would I be better off working on sRGB profile and getting it correct in this colour space.

I would appreciate any advice people could offer, colour management seems to be a bit of a wormhole once you start digging a bit deeper it's easy to end up going round in circles!

Cheers

Bowcutt1

[Juraj]

Hi All,

I have been looking into monitor calibration with hope that it will improve my workflow and result in better quality images.

My monitor is a dell U2713h

My observations so far are:

1 - Once calibrated colour managed software such as Photoshop, Coreldraw and Google Chrome (I think) etc look washed out in comparison to what i'm used to seeing in windows image viewer or Corona. It makes me think they look wrong in the colour managed application when I'm guessing they are in fact correct?

2 - What is the point of having a workflow where I spend hours getting everything to look correct in the corona frame buffer but then open it up in Photoshop and it looks completely different? IS there a workaround for this?

3 - Most people wont be viewing images on a colour managed screen but instead on a sRGB screen where my images will look over saturated and too contrasty.

4 - Unless I am specifically working for print or for a final output that I think will be colour managed would I be better off working on sRGB profile and getting it correct in this colour space.

I would appreciate any advice people could offer, colour management seems to be a bit of a wormhole once you start digging a bit deeper it's easy to end up going round in circles!

Cheers

Bowcutt1

1.) Unless you have done something wrong, they are in fact correct.

2.)3dsMax and Corona are wrong, they will always display in native gamut. If you work in wide-gamut environment, it means 3dsMax and Corona are over-saturated.
    Workaround is clamping down gamut to sRGB using hardware calibration, which is storing 3DLUT inside monitor OSD, not in system.
   
    Alternatively, there is different workaround, which is based on preserving the 'wrong' colors in 3dsMax/Corona. When importing your image to Photoshop, simply apply wide-gamut profile (ideally the one of monitor) and then convert back to whatever work profile you want. You will get identical result, which means both 3dsMax and Photoshop will have wrong colors. Some people like it ;- )

3.) It is exactly opposite. Because most people have display with limited gamut (or at best, full sRGB), they will see the image much closer to what is in Photoshop, than what is in 3dsMax/Corona.

4.) Exactly. That is why all these high-end wide-gamut displays feature sRGB mode.

Btw, you can still calibrate this display, but calibrate it to sRGB gamut only and store that profile in OSD.

The issue isn't calibration, it's the fact 3dsMax and Corona are not color managed. Which sucks a LOT.

[Rimas]

Agreed with Juraj on the above.

I bought an X-Rite i-1 calibrator and the Color Passport for my photography needs and I have to say - for me it's worth having a calibrated screen just for the reasons of my colors being correct (my screens were either too green or too blue before calibration). It doesn't solve ALL the problems, though... Different screens still look different, even if calibrated to the same color space (though I guess in my case it's down to one being IPS and the other TN with different brightnesses). I've also had clients come back asking to adjust colors of images where, in face, we later found out that their cheap laptop displays are horribly blue and dark in comparison to a calibrated display.
Phones will also display utter over-saturated garbage, unless you have the option to use the sRGB color space on it (which most people won't be doing anyway, since it requires digging into the settings).

I've come to realize that unless you're working with high-end agencies/clients (we're talking Apple or Samsung or Canon) - your beautiful calibrated colors are for you and only YOU to see... I was surprised that here in the UK most printing companies have no clue what color standards they use (should be ISO FOGRA39), if any.

It's a can of worms...

[Juraj]

Very true, we calibrate for our own measure, to know that the values we work with are within good ballpark :- )

There is no way to proof against what clients will see. But, I made it a bit of habit that when they criticize the colors with sort of weird remarks ("pink overtone" when there is none pink) I will tell them that we work with calibrated display and there there really isn't any pink.

Same with printers, there is very little chance your client will work with printer who really knows what they're doing with colors.
Once the image is out of your hands, all hell can break loose :- ). But at least you have good feeling of being able to trust your own eyes.

(very true about the different monitors still having distinctively different look even if meticulously calibrated to match each other. All the different types of IPS alone, with all different backlight systems (CFL/GB-LED/RGB-LED,etc..) still make it look different. It's good to stick to the very same display if you want peace of mind, or keep different type of displays if you use it for sort of "look-control" ).

[pokoy]

That's why proof printing exists. If you're producing for print, you absolutely need to proof print you images. In a perfect world - and with a high-end calibrated display - it will match 1:1 what you see on the screen.
There's always a trade-off, such as that paper just can't compete with a screen in terms of luminosity (that's why a display calibrated for print will be darker and than a display straight from the factory) and some colors won't be as vibrant due to the imperfections of the CMYK process and its limited color space. But you'd hand over the proof to your client and this is what will be used to judge and discuss colors, NOT their cheap screen/mobile etc.

One problem that I've come across a few times is that proofs from different print shops still may not look 100% alike... although in theory they should as they use the same standard. That's a mystery to me, but still, the differences will be small.

If you're producing for web/screen, calibrating still makes sense since you want a neutral grey and your blacks/whites to be within the gamut. Only make sure you're calibrating towards a brighter luminosity - something around 100-130 cd/m will be good. For print however, going as low as 30-40 cd/m may be needed to properly 'simulate' paper whiteness.

[peterguthrie]

Colour calibration makes me angry

[NicolasC]

Colour calibration makes me angry

ahahha Peter - nice summary of my state of mind about colour calibration :)

[Juraj]

2Pokoy: All that matters only if you're even invited to be part of that (print) pipeline. We're never for example are.

[pokoy]

It's different only in that your target white point doesn't have to be at 40 cd/m. And frankly, it's really good to have a standard measure to discuss your stuff with clients, that's why proofs make sense regardless of what you do. And in all the years working in a calibrated environment I didn't have to adjust colors for screen even once, so it's not like it's exclusive and only works for one target audience.

I wouldn't bother too much with all the side effects. Calibration may make you colors less vibrant, if it does it means that you've worked in a non-calibrated environment and your display was set up with too much contrast probably, that's all. If you've calibrated correctly, your display will now display black and white within the display's gamut, making sure your 3/3/3 and 250/250/250 colors aren't cut off at full black/full white as is the case with many displays without calibration. Also, your gray balance should be good now. Make sure you don't touch any monitor controls after calibration though.

From there on, work in PS just like you did before BUT before sending the image to your client make sure to convert it to sRGB, if you didn't work in sRGB in PS already.

As for the difference between PS and Corona - it should look the same if you use sRGB in PS. For other profiles, either 3dsmax or Corona would need to support ICC color management so you'd load the same profile you use in PS. Not sure if that will ever happen.

[Juraj]

I have no idea to whom (me? or the OP) and about what you are talking about. It seems like you misread something.

[Rhodesy]

I hate colour calibration as well. At the moment im finding brightness / gamma and contrast the issue. After calibration with my i1 pro the colour tones seem OK across my 3 monitors but the gamma and contrast really vary the brightness and saturation of the image. I suppose all monitors cant look the same otherwise we would all buy the cheapest and calibrate those!

Ive a 32 inch Benq as my main with a cheap 24inch Dell and a 27inch Dell Canvas. The Benq does really deep black so its great for contrast but sometimes it can look a bit dark and rich - so I brighten it but then it looks washed out on the cheap Dell (probably similar calibre to my clients screens) and the Canvas is somewhere in between because it cant match the higher contrast of the benQ. So no idea which is correct or how they print.

To the OP about saturation this used to drive me round the bend on wide colour gamut displays, to the point where i specifically bought the 100% sRGB Benq rather than the wide gamut version. I found a solution through trial and error over several years! Set your monitor to sRGB mode and in your calibration options (for me using the i1 pro) dont select the option for manual colour RGB adjustment - set it to auto. If you do the manual control then it takes it out of sRGB mode and opens up the full gamut again. Auto should keep everything in sRGB land in terms of what you see on your monitor. Certainly this works for me in C4D / photoshop and windows photos.

 

[Rimas]

The Benq does really deep black so its great for contrast but sometimes it can look a bit dark and rich - so I brighten it but then it looks washed out on the cheap Dell (probably similar calibre to my clients screens).

You have to remember that black is black and most screens can't display it properly (hence why you tend to brighten it on your good screen and end up with even worse results on others). My best advice is work on and get used to the colors of your best screen.

I'll have to try and see if auto setting does something else on my i1 Pro too - I always set it manually to calibrate for sRGB...

[Bowcutt1]

Hi All,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and sorry I took so long to respond, I'm new to the forum and didn't get the updates.

Cheers

[mylesmontgomery]

2.)3dsMax and Corona are wrong, they will always display in native gamut. If you work in wide-gamut environment, it means 3dsMax and Corona are over-saturated.
    Workaround is clamping down gamut to sRGB using hardware calibration, which is storing 3DLUT inside monitor OSD, not in system.
   
    Alternatively, there is different workaround, which is based on preserving the 'wrong' colors in 3dsMax/Corona. When importing your image to Photoshop, simply apply wide-gamut profile (ideally the one of monitor) and then convert back to whatever work profile you want. You will get identical result, which means both 3dsMax and Photoshop will have wrong colors. Some people like it ;- )

Have been trying to wrangle my head around this color profiling with our wide gamut monitors. For a while have always felt it wasn't quite right.

We have been working with the above work around for a while now but with monitors calibrated to Adobe 98 color space.

Juraj, is this the way you've been working by hardware clamping down to an srgb gamut, applying your monitor gamut in PS and working within your desired workspace?