Corona Renderer Forum

Corona Renderer for 3ds Max => [Max] General Discussion => Topic started by: fco3d on 2017-08-25, 19:58:38

Title: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: fco3d on 2017-08-25, 19:58:38
Whaaaaatt????

https://www.chaosgroup.com/news/render-legion-and-corona-join-chaos-group-family
Title: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: andrewdtejeda on 2017-08-25, 19:58:48
So this is happening now!? https://www.chaosgroup.com/news/render-legion-and-corona-join-chaos-group-family (https://www.chaosgroup.com/news/render-legion-and-corona-join-chaos-group-family) What can we expect with this? At my studio, there's both excitement and concern. I see that corona will be implementing Vray's DMC in 1.7. Is there any worry that one day Choas group will shut down Corona? Comments, questions, concerns, etc?

Cheers!
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: nauticus25 on 2017-08-25, 20:00:48
We are so far away from April 1st, yet I still had to check my calendar.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: hrvojezg00 on 2017-08-25, 20:02:37
Probably not shut down, but cripple, take all the goods and raise price, apsolutely! Many studio use Corona with alot of subscriptions, this is definetly changing it. Very bad move guys.
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: TomG on 2017-08-25, 20:03:10
https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/ (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: erick3d on 2017-08-25, 20:03:51
can't believe it !
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Naxos on 2017-08-25, 20:05:57
I have to admit that i'm a bit scared... but ok, for now it is a good thing...

Think about Autodesk buying Alias (Maya, StudioTools...) and let it live beside 3dsmax...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: TomG on 2017-08-25, 20:08:08
Be sure to read our blog post of course - https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/ (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: andrewdtejeda on 2017-08-25, 20:09:16
Probably not shut down, but cripple, take all the goods and raise price, apsolutely! Many studio use Corona with alot of subscriptions, this is definetly changing it. Very bad move guys.

Based on this post from Corona, it seems there should be little cause for concern.

https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/ (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: fco3d on 2017-08-25, 20:11:55
I don't know what to think really. Usually, I am a very positive person, but, in a general way both software do the same, so why a company that is trying to be profitable will want to have two of the same??
Corona team was really kicking Chaosgroup to make a better software, They were an absolute winner after Metal Ray, and Final Render and good old Brazil virtually died.
Development of VRay was consistent but after corona came in the game, boy those 'new features' came up pretty quickly.
Corona came with a big bang!!.
now what?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: erick3d on 2017-08-25, 20:14:40
wait and see, but i feel like hostage.
I don't believe in Chaos.....
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Monkeybrother on 2017-08-25, 20:17:45
The blog post sounds nice, of course, because you're trying to sell it to us. But there are too many examples of this kind of thing making things worse for the end user to make me worried. How long will Chaos Group keep two separate renderers that are very similar and in direct competition? I really don't see Corona and V-Ray being two separate products for very long. It's just sad that competition always get stomped out by the bigger guy. You got Autodesked.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-25, 20:48:02
Tragedy what to write here .. it sounds like a joke. Well, I started slow-moving emigrants on Fstrom.
Really sad day, maybe I can write something more later.
Long time ago I was not so angry, fu ** chao ***
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: warlock on 2017-08-25, 20:57:46
Was it Chaos group's fault guys, you think like that? Come on. I am waiting official announcement by Corona devs... But I am sad and i will post more about this.
 
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: TomG on 2017-08-25, 21:17:44
Was it Chaos group's fault guys, you think like that? Come on. I am waiting official announcement by Corona devs... But I am sad and i will post more about this.

This is pretty official :) https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/ (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)

And the live stream too - https://www.facebook.com/d2conferences/videos/698213080369213/ (https://www.facebook.com/d2conferences/videos/698213080369213/)

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2017-08-25, 21:19:33
Was it Chaos group's fault guys, you think like that? Come on. I am waiting official announcement by Corona devs... But I am sad and i will post more about this.

There is already official announcement from Corona devs :)
https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/

And if you read closely, you will actually find implications that it was Render Legion's decision to initiate this thing :)

(https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17233.0;attach=69596)

If Corona guys are the ones who have set this into motion, do you think they would do that if they thought it was a bad thing? Also, they negotiated it for over a year, it's not like it was a decision made overnight :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: tony_morev on 2017-08-25, 21:29:49
has anyone ever seen a big fish swallow a small one to turn it into a pearl?
i don't think so, a small fish always ends up being and even smaller turd ...
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-08-25, 21:51:00
https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/ (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)

sounds like sunshine and blue sky... but sorry, the reason a big company swallows a small one is very often to cancel out a competitor. we'll see what happens either the statements are true or corona will be gone in 1-2 years.
for me corona is? was? the biggest hope for a better render engine than vray. (waiting for the corona c4d) i would have preferred it to be independent! well now i will follow the development of corona c4d even more... i really hope too see the boost and not a decline...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: matsu on 2017-08-25, 22:05:23
I'm shocked, outraged and first ande foremost: disappointed. Chaos Group is turning into another Autodesk, and these types of deals are NEVER good for the users. The strength of Corona (outside of the actual renderer) was its position as a challenger - a challenger that could push development and competition.

It was fun while it lasted. I assume we'll start seeing forced annual releases, without interesting features and jacked up prices. Looking forward to that new challenger appearing...

:(
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: PROH on 2017-08-25, 22:19:37
hmm..... AutoChaos? or maybe ChaosDesk?

Worrying...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: ihabkal on 2017-08-25, 22:30:42
I am almost sick. If Vray is the Autodesk of the rendering world no good will happen of this. I always root for the over performing underdog and the underdog just went to sleep with the grizzly bear.
I expect in a year to have to pay $1500  for a Corona license, or Corna dissolved and integrated into Vray.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Freakaz on 2017-08-25, 22:36:49
What will change is that anoher 0 will be added at the end of the subscription pricetag.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: octavtirziu on 2017-08-25, 22:42:35
I am truly disappointed. Say what you want about tools being just tools but corona had a fresh look and feel. Now I have the feeling this tech exchange with vray will lead to a sea of monotonous vray-corona hybrid renders. :(
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: marioteodoru on 2017-08-25, 22:47:06
The first reason for people to get Corona, was to escape Vray! You just pissed off, all your user base! I can't beleive that. You guys had the potential to remove Vray from existence. But you've been borged.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: maru on 2017-08-25, 22:57:55
Guys, please stop the wave of hate, stay calm, and take a look at https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Flavius on 2017-08-25, 23:10:26
I cannot even express the huge dissapointment because of this news.

First of all, two competing products under the same umbrella... I won't even start to comment as I'm too angry now, but Softimage keeps coming into my mind. So is the disaster with the updates on Maya/3ds max.  Why would an inverstor/anyone pay money on two development teams for two competing products? Monopoly(or lack of competition) is the worst thing that can happen to the advancement of any products. Look at Intel, they've been doing 2% increase in performance with OUTRAGEOUS prices for years until AMD finally came with a serious competing product.

I'm curious if(when?) the phrase" You can buy our sister product for those features" will be heard soon :D

After working 7 years + with Vray, I was really glad moving to Corona in 2015 ( I should've done it sooner!). I actually had projects which I couldn't have finished on Vray. I decided to support Corona (because let's be honest, I could've gone the underground/free way) because I really liked the team, the atmosphere on the forums and it is a product very well made and Ondra and the rest really deserved all the help they needed. And the pricing was really fair!! I seriously cannot say the same stuff about V-ray pricing. Now I really feel like..the Starks bending the knee to the Lannisters.

I always liked small teams with great vision that can create something really good, in any industry. I like how Koenigsegg is teasing Ferrari and Lamborghini, even though they are much younger and smaller company. Competition is pushing things forward, bringing new ideas and pushing boundaries. V-ray couldn't do a damn decent Interative preview for AGES until Corona came in, which is one the main reasons that got me into switching. Years and years being stuck with V-ray with no revolutionary new ideas or huge improvement..Makes me sick only when I think on the splotches and all that shit IR and LC gave. And BF was impossible to use unless you owned your own powerplant and half of Intel's CPU-s. Then Corona came along and I was stunned I could use it on my old crapy i7920, IN REALTIME PREVIEW RENDERING! Now all this tech goes to the arrogance of V-ray and their stupid prices which didn't do anything revolutionary about it until Corona was a serious contender. I remember some posts, here or on Facebook, can't remember where, after Corona released the denoiser, someone said "I'm pretty sure what Vlado is starting to code tonight" Or somewhere long those lines.

It's a s*it day... As soon as I find an alternative I will have to leave Corona. I'm pretty sure pricing will rise in the future, and even if it won't happen, I simply cannot give my money to Chaos Group.

With Corona, it was the first time when I was actually trying to get involved with suggestions to improve the product and find bugs, even in my spare time, because, and I can't really explain this properly rationally, I wanted to help the Corona team as much as I could, mainly to be able to bitchslap V-ray a little bit for all the years being stuck with it with no huge improvement. This reminds me of a quote of my technical lead artist from my former company. Our main client was Philips, and sometimes it can be a very difficult client, and this guy told me "well, those are the comments. We are Philips' bitch, so they can bitchslap us when they want"

Ow well I guess it's all about the money in the end, and no pride and drive to be the king render engine.

Sooo what's Fstorm doing these days? still legal issues or something?

Also that thing written on the blog, history of bigger companies buying smaller ones, tells me to reserve my right to be extremely skeptical about it.

"Ondrej, Jaroslav and I feel like parents, and Corona is our baby" Well, you've just sold your baby...


Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: andrewdtejeda on 2017-08-25, 23:16:31
Guys, please stop the wave of hate, stay calm, and take a look at https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/

Honestly, as long as the worst doesn't happen (phasing out of Corona), this is pretty awesome. Independent teams doing what they think is best for the customers while being able to share knowledge with who used to be their biggest competitor. The benefits of it are already being seen in the newest dailies for 1.7. I'm extremely excited to be able to render both corona and v-ray materials, lights, etc with either engine. That compatibility alone is worth it's wait in gold. Hours of time can be wasted converting materials and lights.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: l.croxton on 2017-08-25, 23:17:40
I don't agree with the hate comments being sent, however I hope the developers understand that the fear of this is from the love that we have for this bit of incredible software that has been developed and indeed the community it has created. It's just something people do not want to see lost. I'm personally sure it wont be and hopefully this is just like how car manufacturers share technology which in turn helps to lower R&D costs and in the end gives consumers better cars while distinctively different enough to not feel as if you're just buying the same thing but with a different paint job. 

I'd personally be far more fear full if Corona was bought out by Autodesk...

I wish everyone involved the best of luck with this and the future for Corona is safe and ever improving! :)

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: denisgo22 on 2017-08-25, 23:24:32
Very strange news:(((
But for me, as 10 years Vray user this something fuzzily////
I am very glad to see in Corona---- Vray Clipper/DMC/Some improvements for speed and memory usage/DR improvements and others Vray's facilities, than i used in Vray projects////
But I am very afraid that the absence of competition will make the development much, much lazier:)
This can be seen from the development of the same VRAY in last several years for the time of appearance on the market the Corona render////
How many beautiful and convenient things appeared in Vray in last year: Interactive Production render,------------- than waiting for loooong time :))/Light Mixer, ------------not so useful as in Corona/Resumable rendering/Progressive Sampler/Cryptomatte and etc.
And all thanks to Corona:)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: ylucic on 2017-08-25, 23:26:02
I am truly disappointed. Say what you want about tools being just tools but corona had a fresh look and feel. Now I have the feeling this tech exchange with vray will lead to a sea of monotonous vray-corona hybrid renders. :(

R&D will be amazing from now on...

but I have the same feeling about this. Eventually there will be a slow merge of characteristics and features (with new price tags??) ...or two different applications for certain targets but one of them will just stay as the little baby brother of the other one ...Lele posted on the chaosg forum: "Want things quick, Corona, want to go deeper, V-Ray.", that would be a reality..... so much for making rendering fun again :c
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: matsu on 2017-08-25, 23:35:15
Guys, please stop the wave of hate, stay calm, and take a look at https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/
Nice words and all, but so far, I'm waiting to see ONE SINGLE merger of this kind, resulting in something benefiting the consumer/user. You just ruined the competition in the rendering business - ence all the hate.

Vray and Corona are too much of similar to keep developing them as seperate products in the long run. My bet is Corona will be around for a year or two, then it will be fully incorporated into Vray. Some time during this period, Corona subscribers will be offered a discounted switchover to Chaos's "render package". This is just how things work in this day and age.

Enjoy your new monies, though.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: matsu on 2017-08-25, 23:36:28
I am truly disappointed. Say what you want about tools being just tools but corona had a fresh look and feel. Now I have the feeling this tech exchange with vray will lead to a sea of monotonous vray-corona hybrid renders. :(

R&D will be amazing from now on...

Kinda like it's amazing with Autodesk's 3dsmax.........
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Benny on 2017-08-25, 23:38:47
On a positive note we could potentially see some cross pollination on the GPU side.  :)  If there was one thing that I felt would be an issue for Corona going forward, it was the apparent negligence of GPU technology. Vray has some very skilled people there I am sure.

Looking at this historically, the typical VRay user seems very technical whereas the Corona user more 'artistic' (not to suggest Vray users aren't artistic, but in general more interested in what is going on under the hood). I think someone like Vlado realized that it will be very difficult to offer one product that cater to everybody, and that there is room for two 'flavors'.

Having said that, I think going forward Vray will become more advanced and focused on larger studios, pipelines and VFX. It is not sustainable in the long run to have two, feature wise, almost identical products with the only difference that one of them in general is easier to use. The remaining market for the more complicated one would gradually become smaller and smaller.

I expect a similar development as between Maya and Max, which is basically the law of market positioning of products. Not necessarily bad for the bulk of users, but not as fun.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lolec on 2017-08-25, 23:55:59
Well, first of all CONGRATULATIONS to the corona team! I work in product development and know the huge deal something like this is, and how different is from what the rest of the world can percieve. You will get a lot of hate, no doubt, you will be called sellouts, stupid, traitors etc... Don't listen to that shit. You should be very proud!

Now, as a user, I have to confess I'm a little bit nervous, while I believe you made this deal with the best intentions and the interest of users at heart, it is very difficult to do right by that intention. I won't pretend to know what is your specific vision, and what are your secret awesome plans... I wish this is one of the few cases in which an acquisition results in better products and more innovation (human nature says it wont).

I hope you can soon share with us some of your specific future plans and end game, as the blog statements are very vague and really could mean anything, or at least are vague enough that they can change at any time. 

Future plans for both companies will 100% for sure have to change dramatically, would be interesting to know a little bit on how.

You certainly took a big chink of customers from V-ray in the archviz market and probably were planning on going after other markets as well.  As Corona is CHEAPER than Vray by a significant amount (even if it's very profitable), it absolutely doesn't make sense to allow Corona to gain any more ground now, or keep prices the same.

I agree that Corona and Vray have different DNAs, but the market forced Corona to compete with Vray and therefore increase the overlap between the two. I would love to know, now that you are under the same roof and the plan is (probably) to fully express this DNA without worrying about competing, what market do you want to tackle with full force?

Congratulations and remember to be mindful about your dreams and passion, as those vanish slowly without you noticing, don't allow that to happen to you! I've seen it too many times.


Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Crazy Homeless Guy on 2017-08-26, 00:09:01
Excited that Corona is getting VFX tools.  Now if they can just fix the huge ram consumption maybe this engine will be able to render more than just nice interiors and houses.  Corona would likely never have a shot at being used for anything more than visualization and product renders going down the path that they were pursuing, now their game has changed.  New tools and a lot more exposure in Hollywood.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Yuriy Bochkaryov on 2017-08-26, 00:26:55
we believed in you
and you betrayed us
Corona could become the meaning of your life, a product that gave you money and interesting work, such as facebook for Mark Zuckerberg
but you wanted money, a lot of money and this is very distressing
Autodesk bought Softtimage because he was afraid of competition, they promised that everything would be fine, that Softmage will develop, you zanete that now with the great Softmage?
The same thing will happen with the Corona renderer
This is your development, your brainchild, how could you sell it to the Chaos Group?
How could you sell it to your enemies that you defeated?
Money is not the most important thing in life

Do you know the game of Minecraft?
Do you know the creator of this game?
He sold his game to Microsoft
they paid him a lot of money
but he is not happy
because the development of this game - it was the purpose of his life
now he has a lot of money, but he has no purpose in life and he is not happy, although he is rich
Come to your senses, return everything back
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: TomG on 2017-08-26, 00:53:17
Yuriy Bochkaryov, Corona is still being developed by the same team, with the same goals and passion as ever. This was all about investing in the growth of the product that both you and we love so much! Like the article says, this was Render Legion looking for the right investor who understood our business, and with many options considered, this one was chosen - with over a year spent on getting the details of the arrangement just right, to ensure that the Corona we all love is one one hand protected, and on the other able to grow as the team has always wanted and planned :)

The Minecraft analogy just doesn't hold up, that was someone selling the product and walking away from the development, not staying at the helm of the development. - very far from the situation here as the blog article says.

Don't forget to think about this side of it all - our development team is set to double (just imagine what we can do with twice as many people!), and that this is all to "help us to push Corona Renderer and other projects even further." No-one is excited to think just what we can do, the same developers you've known and talked with so long, with these resources? ;)
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-26, 01:51:54
I don't know what to think really. Usually, I am a very positive person, but, in a general way both software do the same, so why a company that is trying to be profitable will want to have two of the same??
Corona team was really kicking Chaosgroup to make a better software, They were an absolute winner after Metal Ray, and Final Render and good old Brazil virtually died.
Development of VRay was consistent but after corona came in the game, boy those 'new features' came up pretty quickly.
Corona came with a big bang!!.
now what?

classic, so it blocks something that threatens ..
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: M0ntana on 2017-08-26, 02:19:37
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/015/219/You_Were_The_Chosen_One.jpg)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: stravamir on 2017-08-26, 02:28:19
Well, first of all CONGRATULATIONS to the corona team!...

I hope you can soon share with us some of your specific future plans and end game, as the blog statements are very vague and really could mean anything, or at least are vague enough that they can change at any time. 

Future plans for both companies will 100% for sure have to change dramatically, would be interesting to know a little bit on how.


How great would it be when mergers happen that we get transparency on plans of companies. But that's not how bigger companies work. When you are a small, friendly and personal business and also a challenger doing something different then you get a lot of really passionate users. These early adopters really want you to succeed. From the perspective of the company corona has a little bit of unique tech, great UI, and a lot of promise and potential. Now, to grow is a totally different challenge. It makes sense to join a bigger more experienced company that has what it takes to take it to another level. New challenges require new skills and corona's team is there to learn how to do business in a bigger league. On a different scale, in different markets. There is no reason to expect something radical will happen over night. Teams stay the same. Over next couple of years the culture of corona might change, and it's original enthusiast users will leave at the first sign of another cooler product. But new ones will come. The product will be stronger, faster, more capable. But the user base might become less passionate. You can call it growing up, or going big, or selling out, or what ever. But it's whats best for the product, and for money making. I expect corona to shoot for the moon and hit the stars. In next couple of years it's possible it will be there with vray, arnold and renderman as a render of consideration in every multi million dollar  production. Over a long period 5 years and on, depending on it's position there might not be a need to push it at all and things might slow down. And ultimately on the long run loosing a competitor will be bad for the end user. Hopefully something else will rise, and is rising as we speak to take that place. There will still be plenty of competition in this market to push things further. Over time the room for innovation might even become smaller as there render engines mature to the point that adding another 10% speed increase per year is considered respectable and all the render features are supported everywhere almost equally. What has been lost is an opportunity to keep developing independently and grow a lot on your own, this would have taken a lot of time and might not have worked out in the end. But it would be an opportunity for corona to show a middle finger to oscar winning renders. Some passionate early users joint the corona train when corona needed them most, when it was the hardest to use corona. They did it to stick it to other companies that got lazy. Looking at corona devs their passion is to create good rendering software and make boat loads of money and not to change the market, the world or stick it to the corporate class. So I guess you can keep on using corona for what it's worth - simplicity, features, speed, accessibility, and even price. And if it gets more expensive, well it will be faster with more features. Isn't that what you wanted?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: oncire on 2017-08-26, 02:46:33
i love corona...i have a mixed feeling about this... monopoly is always bad for the consumer.. competition makes you constantly innovate...When your business is the only one, innovation tends to be ignored...
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: jkcameron on 2017-08-26, 03:01:19
of course, not one mention on chaos groups site or news or press..... Grrrr.....

This is how it always is anymore. 

Ill pray that this isn't a couple year stall to the arch viz rendering sector.

Corona that is a compliment wrapped in criticism.  If the ink isn't dry... back out.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: GestaltDesign on 2017-08-26, 03:08:11
Quite honestly shocked!!! I have read all the statements, they say exactly what they have to say. However the game is NEVER as you are told in these cases, I am sorry but this is not hate, just stone cold honest experience. There is NEVER pure innocent intent in strategic aquisitions, it is about business. There will be a compromise, there always is and the users will pay the price. Chaos just pulled a blinder imho :(
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: melviso on 2017-08-26, 03:20:32
I just saw this news casually visiting evermotion.org or .com? No sure now when I saw the merger thingy.

How I feel about this? Not good tbh. I have always rooted for you guys. Loved the community you guys have built here and I remember trying out your corona A6 some years back and loving it because mental ray was such a pain to use. We couldn't use vray during our university course. Corona was an underdog and came to the rescue.

For a lot of people here, we have experienced all too well, big giant companies in the cg industry buying out their competitors and after a couple of years, these new apps are killed off or monopoly becomes the norm and users start getting ripped off in terms of features that should be added.

This is driving professional users towards opensource, for example Blender which has proved to be quite solid in all areas imho and are unrelenting in adding features. I will just say this. People are going to express how they feel. Nevertheless, I hope you guys know what you are doing, and in the next 5 years, this forum will still be up hopefully. :(

Wish you guys the best.
Title: Vray acquire Corona
Post by: iacdxb on 2017-08-26, 03:48:15
https://www.chaosgroup.com/news/render-legion-and-corona-join-chaos-group-family

I think its good news.


...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Pixelarck on 2017-08-26, 04:20:15
Have a mixed feeling about this (curently download the latest build to check the new improvements from Vray dmc sampler).
Hopefully Corona won't increased subscription fees and the community still the same.
Anyway cheers for the dev teams and keep it up the good work!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sinjongthae on 2017-08-26, 04:56:17
I hope this will b good thing, and it won't turn out to b a nightmare.
Have seen few of this and the small party never end up good. They r either die out or just trashed in some can.
U know wut, There's no way that im going back to that vray anymore -_- plus if corona pop out of existence then I probably start to change my course again.
RIP....
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: astrofalcon on 2017-08-26, 05:34:01
I think this is great news! I love both Vray and Corona... More lately Corona but let's be honest they are both amazing render engines.

If this speeds up the development for Corona for C4D I'm all for it! Maybe Corona and get Vray's amazing displacement as well!

- Shawn
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Jadefox on 2017-08-26, 07:50:46
I think this might just turn out for the better and hopefully we finally get a vray for sketchup...oops I mean Corona for sketchup, Corona
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: mugambi on 2017-08-26, 07:58:20
Think about it from a business perspective it does not make sense to develop two engines that are basically the same. Finally one has to give in. Am afraid it does not look good for corona development.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lacilaci on 2017-08-26, 08:22:08
I'm not much into the mass hysteria. Don't see anything wrong going on now, and sure there is a lot of experience from vray devs that corona can build up on...

But I have one question that I believe needs to be answered.

The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Christa Noel on 2017-08-26, 08:48:40
I cant believe this is real. I'm trying to not to underestimate everything.
I'm just hoping there will be no any changes in our cultures and especially the pricing...
devs, what are your plans for corona's pricing as your development team already planned to be doubled for up to 12 months?
and btw that's a very good point by lacilaci.

Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-08-26, 09:04:15
of course it is mentioned on chaosgroup:

https://www.chaosgroup.com/news/render-legion-and-corona-join-chaos-group-family

desipite all shiny words corona was simply sold out and it's fate is in chaosgroups hands now.
it can be that they really do have the strategy to keep both renderers alive for now, but in the end it is more efficient and more likely that they integrate one into the other. you can guess which one will stay.
Title: Re: Vray acquire Corona
Post by: Eddoron on 2017-08-26, 09:24:20
God no!
Why couldn't it be otoy or some other company.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-08-26, 09:25:42
cut the sunny salesmen talk, we just have to face it:
in 2 years from now all that was good in corona will be integrated in vray and then chaosgroup will let corona slowly bleed out. this is really the worst progression in the render business of the last 10yrs. trump would say: sad, very sad day.

and no, this is not hate talk,
what happened is a real life business transaction, the intentions of chaosgroup are pretty easy to understand, the intentions of the owners of corona to do this, though... uhhh...
Title: Re: RENDER LEGION AND CORONA JOIN CHAOS GROUP FAMILY
Post by: warlock on 2017-08-26, 09:25:56
Money talks and yeah pick biggest render engine and do another render engine better than that for very short time and sold it to biggest one back  and become rich. Users, who cares! I understand Blender spirit way better right now.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Yuriy Bochkaryov on 2017-08-26, 10:18:05
This was all about investing in the growth of the product that both you and we love so much! Like the article says,
investments from competitors?
sorry, I probably do not understand, but why should they do it?
they have their own product, and you have your own
you take away their market, profit, why should they invest in you money?
where is the logic?
they spent many years on the development of Vry and will only promote it, why should they develop competition?
you are in their way
They are afraid of you
for this reason, bought Corona

If a Mercedes buys a BMW and promises to develop it, will you believe it?

And the last question - you say that the development team has remained the same,
who is now the owner of Corona render?
who is the owner of the product?
Render Legion?
Chaos Group?

I want to believe that everything will be fine, but as practice shows, it will all end badly for Corona
Title: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: nesha_2 on 2017-08-26, 10:21:51
Just came to my attention. Most certainly the bad news. Looks like a competition removal. They will take technology they want and probably kill Corona or make it a stepchild with little to no updates. If true, that's a real shame. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Siahpoosh on 2017-08-26, 10:41:07
very sad news , bye bye corona renderer
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: dfcorona on 2017-08-26, 11:21:36
Wow this does not look good, and I don't even use Corona.  I do have Vray though.  When the team says "This was all about investing in the growth of the product that both you and we love so much." From a business stand point I only hear "this was the best move for us to make more money, good luck users." I don't see how this will work, Vray is huge, why would they want or care to keep and invest in there littler competition.  I can see buy out the competition so there is none and take there best tech and apply it to Vray. Either way it's good for me since I'm a Vray User, but this doesn't look good for Corona. But who knows right...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: speltospel on 2017-08-26, 13:47:18
Something genius pushed you (corona team) to create a Corona.
And something maximal stupid pushed the sell of the Chaos Group.

I do not believe that people who created the Corona. So mercantile. I did not follow the rumors and this news greatly upset me. Because the crown is the only product for the development of which I was happy.

In disputes with friends, I always put your team and Corona as an example. How did you beat vray. You just destroyed it. And now sold? and all this for the sake of money? you write that everything will remain as before. then why this deal?

in 1-2 years. you would have bought a vray. to finally destroy it.
you had everything in your hands...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sebastian___ on 2017-08-26, 13:54:25
Maybe the future is not that dark. It's not like they are a monopoly now and can rest and not innovate anymore. There's a lot of competition still. Arnold, and Fstorm and others.

If they would try to eliminate Corona in a few years, probably another rendering solution would pop up at some point.
Mixing the two in one single package would result maybe in a bloated and too complex plugin.

The only thing I would not like to see, is Corona becoming even simpler, focusing on good things like speed, but eliminating vfx oriented features. In order to not compete or overlap with Vray too much.
 
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sprayer on 2017-08-26, 14:14:45
Think about Autodesk buying Alias (Maya, StudioTools...) and let it live beside 3dsmax...
and what they do for improving? nothing. all stuff in 3d max to old, particles work at single core and many others too. Rewriting project was abandon.
And how many soft they close, stitcher unlimited for example what i used.
Brazil r\s from splutterfish was closed too, it was nice render engine
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sprayer on 2017-08-26, 14:16:01
The only thing I would not like to see, is Corona becoming even simpler,
Thats the reason why corona is so popular though -_-
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: apjasko on 2017-08-26, 14:20:36
What does this mean for the pricing model of Corona? V-Ray's pricing is outrageous. Primarily with the cost of additional render nodes. There's other concerns I have but I find it strange there has been no mention of the affected price. Which I'm sure was part of whatever negotiations occurred.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: denisgo22 on 2017-08-26, 14:33:35
The only thing I would not like to see, is Corona becoming even simpler,
Thats the reason why corona is so popular though -_-

I'm more concerned that Corona the would be much more complicated than now, after all this mergers,  And it will have menu switches like: -------
Default/Advances/Expert -------- in all tabs :))))
Already one presence of DMC sampler adds in render settings at least 5 new positions and switches/////////////
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sprayer on 2017-08-26, 14:42:24
I'm more concerned that Corona the would be much more complicated than now
Yes we need just one Render button what will read our mind and render what we want =D
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: mrittman on 2017-08-26, 14:55:41
Pricing of Corona will go way up. Updates will slow way down. Eventually they'll merge the two renderers. I mean in the end, why would they need to develop two? Let's be honest here.

This has probably been in the works for a while now. Probably why updates to the C4D version have slowed way down. Such a shame. I had high hopes for this renderer :(
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: warlock on 2017-08-26, 16:46:32
Vray users are very happy now, laughing at us. Corona users are not. Devs are rich, Vray is number one "again"...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: arqrenderz on 2017-08-26, 16:55:44
I really welcome this move, Corona will have the resources to progress (please dont become a big bloated companny that dont move becouse of burocracy)
vray has an insane amount of support from developers, and corona will have too!!
if corona dont dissaper under their hood, i really like this.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: erkuttaner on 2017-08-26, 17:30:19
(https://corona-renderer.com/stuff/fb/share_img2.jpg)


Just don't make rendering pain again :(
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: nesha_2 on 2017-08-26, 17:41:40
Seems like that. Sad but true.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-26, 18:36:46
Corona, two versions from now:

(http://i.imgur.com/4NE9yLU.png)

For a low low price of 2000€ (per year)!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: felixstrasser on 2017-08-26, 18:44:02
As a long-time Maxwell user i came across Corona in late 2014. Love at first sight. The quality was almost comparable, but with rendering times waaayyy shorter. Please keep up with the nonchalant way of artist-driven development!
I saw a few friendly acquisitions in my CG career (more than 20 years). Most of them ended with the termination of the product (thinking of splutterfish(brazil) etc.). Hopefully not. 
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Noah45 on 2017-08-26, 18:55:46
Congratulations to the Corona team! I just hope Chaos doesn't over complicate the simplicity of Corona.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-26, 18:56:36
I already see this brothel in tabs and those DMC shit back to roots like 1.09.3 vrey anyone remembers? Hahaha, the circle closes.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: pokoy on 2017-08-26, 20:09:26
While it's understandable that some of us are confused and others are shocked, please guys keep it civil, give the team a few days to come back to normal mode and let them explain their view of the situation.

Keep in mind that software development, R&D, maintenance and support is extremely costy, especially if you want to see Corona grow and see it ported to other 3d apps. Their main product is rooted in the 3dsmax community and if they want to support other apps not only do they need new developers with very specific skills but also to grow the team to maintain the code and another few people for user support. This has proved to be an extreme challenge for other companies (look at Maxwell) and while it sounds good to us users it only works with a lot of additional resources quite and high up-front costs. Without that it can break a company's neck - easy to see how that would backfire on the current 3dsmax userbase. This is something that Chaosgroup can help out with and it's a very reasonable move to look for partners who can offer the skillset they need.

If anything, this move means that they're dedicated to Corona's long-term growth, quite the contrary to the 'they're greedy' kind of accusations that some are throwing around here. Both companies have proven to be very user-oriented and artist-driven so let's assume they know what they do and why they did it.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: tom.focus on 2017-08-26, 20:10:38
This is terrible news. Plain and simple - The shareholders sold out. Enjoy your money.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lolec on 2017-08-26, 20:40:27

The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?

This is the big question! I would love to know what is the adjusted vision for both products, as there is no way they will stay in the same track as before (competing with one another).

What makes sense for me is that Vray would focus more and more in the VFX and production industry, people who spend all of their time rendering and would like a lot more control and flexibility, archviz users spend very little time rendering compared to VFX and they holdback the engine, Vray has to tailor to 2 audiences with very different expertise levels.  This market is also used to paying way more for software, so expect vray to become more expensive as it abandons "casual" users.

Corona on the other hand does not need to adapt to attract a single VFX user. They will probably stay where they are at and probably become simpler.  I imagine corona becoming a "virtual DSLR" focused 100% on capturing reality instead of faking it in any way.

Since corona is not even feature complete for archviz (hair, voumetrics, caustics, skin...)  the plans in the short and mid term will probably stay the same. 

But once corona feels complete for 80% of current users, it will probably start diverging more and more from vray.

For most corona users like mayself that are escaping the complexities of other engines, this is great news. For the small number of users that want corona to become something that it's not already, you are probably out of luck.


The one super exciting thing about this is compatibility between the two, get the best of both worlds without compromise. Except paying for 2 licenses of course ...


Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: speltospel on 2017-08-26, 21:01:37
chaos

I remember with horror these dances on the tip of the knife 0.005 trshold.
These settings for AA.

Corona changed the rendering like Zbrash changed the creation of the characters.
you do not think about what you do not need (topology, quad-poly, 5-stars points - you just create)
In the chaos groups this is not understood for more than 10 years. and no longer when they do not understand.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-26, 21:13:22
I don't understand why so many of you are so angry, after all, we do live in the real word. Corona probably didn't generate enough money to continue comfortable development, so Ondra took the opportunity, nothing to blame him for there.
And on the other hand Chaos group took the opportunity to kill it's competitor that started to take a noticeable chunk of (mostly) archviz market.

As for Coronas future, let's not be naive, it will probably meet Mental rays fate once it got bought by Nvidia. It will either become some overpriced pet project of Chaos group, or over time completely abandoned.

C'est la vie, end of an Corona era, others will come. Heck, two years from now 32 gigs graphics cards will become the norm and we'll wonder how we ever got anything done on those old CPU renderers.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2017-08-26, 21:18:45

The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?

This is the big question! I would love to know what is the adjusted vision for both products, as there is no way they will stay in the same track as before (competing with one another).

What makes sense for me is that Vray would focus more and more in the VFX and production industry, people who spend all of their time rendering and would like a lot more control and flexibility, archviz users spend very little time rendering compared to VFX and they holdback the engine, Vray has to tailor to 2 audiences with very different expertise levels.  This market is also used to paying way more for software, so expect vray to become more expensive as it abandons "casual" users.

Corona on the other hand does not need to adapt to attract a single VFX user. They will probably stay where they are at and probably become simpler.  I imagine corona becoming a "virtual DSLR" focused 100% on capturing reality instead of faking it in any way.

Since corona is not even feature complete for archviz (hair, voumetrics, caustics, skin...)  the plans in the short and mid term will probably stay the same. 

But once corona feels complete for 80% of current users, it will probably start diverging more and more from vray.

For most corona users like mayself that are escaping the complexities of other engines, this is great news. For the small number of users that want corona to become something that it's not already, you are probably out of luck.


The one super exciting thing about this is compatibility between the two, get the best of both worlds without compromise. Except paying for 2 licenses of course ...

Actually, the days when VFX rendering meant faking a lot of things are now mostly gone. It took the somewhat cumbersome VFX industry a while to adapt new, simpler, physically based approaches, but they have been enjoying it for a while. So VFX renderer does not mean complicated renderer. VFX renderer, by today's standards simply means feature complete renderer, at least when it comes to major features.

Corona is just hair, skin and volumetrics effects away from becoming a VFX renderer, and hair is already present in dailies, skin is already implemented and being polished, and last time I checked, volumetrics were still on the roadmap. I am also pretty certain that all of these 3 last major features will be implemented in Corona fashion: fast, simple and convenient to use while flexible just enough to cover vast majority of requirements.

They also mentioned on several repeated occasions that there are no plans to limit development direction of Corona in any way, so even if some more requirements for VFX work arise in the future, there's nothing standing in the way of them being implemented into Corona.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: ylucic on 2017-08-26, 21:23:09
Saw the recording of the q&a.
Nice to hear that if either of the teams makes a breakthrough in something it will have to share it with the other. But what about the implementation of those new things? Each team will independently decide put it in it's engine?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lolec on 2017-08-26, 21:48:30

Actually, the days when VFX rendering meant faking a lot of things are now mostly gone. It took the somewhat cumbersome VFX industry a while to adapt new, simpler, physically based approaches, but they have been enjoying it for a while. So VFX renderer does not mean complicated renderer. VFX renderer, by today's standards simply means feature complete renderer, at least when it comes to major features.

Corona is just hair, skin and volumetrics effects away from becoming a VFX renderer, and hair is already present in dailies, skin is already implemented and being polished, and last time I checked, volumetrics were still on the roadmap. I am also pretty certain that all of these 3 last major features will be implemented in Corona fashion: fast, simple and convenient to use while flexible just enough to cover vast majority of requirements.

They also mentioned on several repeated occasions that there are no plans to limit development direction of Corona in any way, so even if some more requirements for VFX work arise in the future, there's nothing standing in the way of them being implemented into Corona.

I was unaware of this, sounds good. It's hard to imagine one company allowing two overlapping products tailored to the same markets at different price points, but it's likely due to my lack of imagination ... and me spending 5 minutes thinking about it instead of 1 year like Ondra.   

One thing I do know is that the corona team has made many many smart decisions in the past, they probably structured this deal in the smartest way to make it work. Facebook is a great example of a company that figured out a great way to acquire teams in a smart way, with WhatsApp, instagram and oculus... The foundry is another good example. I bet the same minds that created the best render engine in the world, came up with a good structure.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Lwmotion on 2017-08-26, 22:44:41
I own both packages and my first knee jerk reaction was noooo but not totally surprised. Octane has sent a ripple through out the
rendering universe. Rendering apps need to step up their game or be left behind. Vray and Corona are great tools but both have
short comings. Vray has a solid rep and features for animation/fx needs but Vray RT after all these years still doesn't 100% match
the production renderer. Corona's interactive renderer shines in this regard and I love it's integrated Image Editor but Corona is missing
some core tools for animation/vfx and has been too focused on arch-vis stills. I ran into a painful wall trying to use it for animation.
That nonsense "Lock Sampling Pattern" option that's enabled by default and is needed for denoising is completely ludicrous! Got a
rendered sequence back from Rebus Farm to find the animation moving through a static grain pattern. That was a $100 worth of rendering
flushed down the toilet... WTF! Both packages could benefit greatly from each others knowledge and expertise. There maybe a future rise
in price but I'm happy to spend a little more on quality.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Siahpoosh on 2017-08-26, 22:59:39
another great CG software killed for money (like XSI,Naiad) , I never thought to say this , F****K you CHAOS GROUP and welcome to AUTODESK family
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-26, 23:40:54
It's somewhat disapponting to read all these responses. Guys like Ondra and the rest of the Corona team are extremely rare, and they chose to work (very hard) for you. They can do many amazing things for you in the future as well. Still somehow you turned from loyal supporters to pure hatred in a single day. Hate me all you like, however those guys have been nothing but good to you.

I've worked on V-Ray really hard for 15 years, long days and many nights including weekends, with very few vacations, and no sick leaves to get where I am today (no matter how much you despise my work). It's a tough road to walk. Is it so bad that those guys want a short cut? I think you will like the results. Corona will continue to serve you well.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: Eddoron on 2017-08-26, 23:57:39
Pricing of Corona will go way up. Updates will slow way down. Eventually they'll merge the two renderers. I mean in the end, why would they need to develop two? Let's be honest here.

This has probably been in the works for a while now. Probably why updates to the C4D version have slowed way down. Such a shame. I had high hopes for this renderer :(

Exactly what I was thinking. They said both teams would work on their own projects but for how long until they're swallowed? What will happen with the FairSaaS?
And don't forget the terrible company that makes the vray conversion for c4d that takes at least months for updates and then puts out a broken version with features not working properly.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: matsu on 2017-08-27, 00:12:08
Vlado, I understand that you're disappointed. I'm sure you were hoping for a community thrilled and happy about the merger.

I can only speak from my own point of view, but for me Corona was the very thing the archviz scene needed. I was using Vray from the beta days, and I was loving it, but as time went on, more and more issues started to show up, and tbh, it felt as you shifted all your focus from archiviz, to vfx. Also, the way the software grew... it just became increasingly cumbersome to work with.
Then Corona showed up, with a very fresh approach, and they truly seemed to understand the artist's point of view. I switched over one afternoon and never looked back. The software just delivered in every aspect and made my proffessional life about ten times more delightful. (Not to forget: At a very reasonable price!)
And what's most important: They brought competition. Which is extremely needed in these cases. Look at ADSK... the latest 3dsmax release is a joke! Complete stagnation. All they do is milk us of money through subscriptions.

So now, when I hear you're taking over the show.. I fear Corona's days are numbered, and that makes me sad and angry. Why? Because we've seen mergers like these before. Initially, the talk is all sunshine, and dev teams will go on, and that no product will be sacrificed etc...then fastforward 2 years, and the story is very different. Especially in this case, where the products are so very similar, and the user group is practically the same, I can't see why a company would want to use resources for some kind of parallell development. Then we all know Chaos will not scrap Vray...

If I am to be optimistic, we'll see a fusion of the two renderers (Corona's simplicity and foolproofness, with.. whatever benefits vray might add) and that you find in your heart (and wallet) to sell it at a decent price.
If I am to be pessimistic, you'll pick whatever tech Corona has that you miss for Vray, then discontinue Corona completely. Then hike the price of Vray further, since you have all this new and cool features.

It's up to you (or your investors?) to deciede. In the meantime, I'll just hope for another challenger to appear. Since this business badly needs good competition.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 00:20:00
Let's go with the optimistic version then.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Noah45 on 2017-08-27, 00:22:17
Vlado,I'm  not being a big deal in CGI. However, somewhat in Arch Viz for Retail, internationally.  My concern is that VRay is not friendly to non-programmers, Corona came along and friendly'd up a whole new base of users ...artists and designers... pls acknowledge their compassion with new releases of Corona.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 00:33:53
pls acknowledge their compassion with new releases of Corona.
That's exactly what we plan to do. You have seen Corona's roadmap; it will happen.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-27, 00:34:33
It's somewhat disapponting to read all these responses. Guys like Ondra and the rest of the Corona team are extremely rare, and they chose to work (very hard) for you. They can do many amazing things for you in the future as well. Still somehow you turned from loyal supporters to pure hatred in a single day. Hate me all you like, however those guys have been nothing but good to you.

I've worked on V-Ray really hard for 15 years, long days and many nights including weekends, with very few vacations, and no sick leaves to get where I am today (no matter how much you despise my work). It's a tough road to walk. Is it so bad that those guys want a short cut? I think you will like the results. Corona will continue to serve you well.

Best regards,
Vlado

Well, consider this.
You are a proud owner of one of these.

(https://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/rimac_concept_one_concept_car-wide.jpg)

It's beautiful, new, different, fast and so easy to drive, it doesn't even have a gear box! Everything you ever wanted from an electric car. A dream come true. And you've been using it since it was just a small 0.4 alpha that couldn't even get over bumps properly.

Then, one day the company is sold to guys that make these:

(http://foto-avto.narod.ru/foto/7/7239.jpg)

Yes, it's a vehicle that will get you from point A to point B, it can even carry a lot more load. But it's big, and ugly, and old, and the company that makes them never cared for EV-s. They are huge, and they make only their huge ugly trucks.
Naturally you are concerned, you are sure that the new big trucking company will ruin your beloved EV. They don't care about it, they just want the competition gone, they're in trucking business. We don't care how long they've been making trucks, we hate trucks.
At this point we are certain they will kill the production of our beloved EV, or leave it as it is but wit their big ugly truck price tag, or at best stick an electric motor in their big ugly truck and say "see, we're in EV business now".
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Benny on 2017-08-27, 00:39:31
First I would like to commend Vlado for speaking out here, can't be easy. At the end of the day, the emotional outpour is obviously a reflection of people's passion and in the heat of the moment. Hopefully no one hates nobody, we're all enthusiasts of the industry and Vray is what everybody compares themselves to.

I do feel that the previous poster, matsu, makes some valid points though but there is another aspect in terms of competition. Competition is important, but I think both Vray and Corona has more to worry about products like Unreal and Redshift/Fstorm than each other, since they approach the problem differently. Being so similar, joining forces is perhaps the smartest they can do. The difference with Autodesk is that they don't have dedicated visionary founders at the helm (the day Ondra leaves it is another matter) and have shareholders etc. Max and Maya is just a portion of a huge machine.

I also share the pessimistic/optimistic sentiments of Matsu, but at the same time I really do think Vlado together with Ondra realizes that Corona fills a gap in the market and that they in an ideal world reach different users. I switched to Corona because I wanted less complexity and I like stuff like the material preview, ease with IPR, no hdri dome, etc. Just easier for me. These things may not matter at all to someone following Grant Warwick's tutorials and wants full control and maybe integrate into a vfx pipeline. The day they reach feature parity, i.e. Corona has hair and whatever and Vray has bloom and glare in VFB and whatever, is the day it will be interesting to see what the users prefer. Not that I expect Chaos to share license percentage, but if they can share technology while having different user interface approaches I think we could get the best of two worlds, and it may not matter to Chaos which version the majority picks as long as it is one of them. Vray may for example cater to a more demanding market in terms of control, and Corona may offer the same functionality but less 'tweakability', which ultimately warrants a higher price for Vray as it is a smaller market that demands that kind of control.

Fair enough?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-27, 00:44:31
Initially, the talk is all sunshine, and dev teams will go on, and that no product will be sacrificed etc...then fastforward 2 years, and the story is very different.

This reminded me when master Zapp switched to Autodesk and promised to make MR usable, only never to be heard from ever again.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 00:57:34
At this point we are certain they will kill the production of our beloved EV, or leave it as it is but wit their big ugly truck price tag, or at best stick an electric motor in their big ugly truck and say "see, we're in EV business now".
That would be a pretty stupid thing for us to do, don't you think? Besides, one company can make many different models of cars (and they do!) at different price points with different characteristics and with different users.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Cinemike on 2017-08-27, 01:00:20
I just hope the Corona team will keep developing the bridge to Cinema4D by themselves.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 01:03:40
I just hope the Corona team will keep developing the bridge to Cinema4D by themselves.
Of course! Why would we want to change that?

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: steyin on 2017-08-27, 01:16:08
Hopefully this will allow Corona to spread to more software. My office is dedicating itself to vray now because we can use it in revit, rhino and max. I pushed for Corona but lost out.


That aside, I'm not sure how to feel about this. My office also had a sit down with one of the vray vps, and what we were told about what's coming made me nervous about Corona's future. I can only hope that this benefits Corona now, and that it stays affordable for my personal use in the future, cause I'm sure as hell never going to be able to afford vray on my own.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: denisgo22 on 2017-08-27, 01:16:43
I just hope the Corona team will keep developing the bridge to Cinema4D by themselves.
Of course! Why would we want to change that?

Best regards,
Vlado

I hope also in Vray  will be new opportunities that should have been there for a long time, etc. as a normal scattering system, that in the Corona appeared in the first place :)))
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Siahpoosh on 2017-08-27, 01:23:21
It's somewhat disapponting to read all these responses. Guys like Ondra and the rest of the Corona team are extremely rare, and they chose to work (very hard) for you. They can do many amazing things for you in the future as well. Still somehow you turned from loyal supporters to pure hatred in a single day. Hate me all you like, however those guys have been nothing but good to you.

I've worked on V-Ray really hard for 15 years, long days and many nights including weekends, with very few vacations, and no sick leaves to get where I am today (no matter how much you despise my work). It's a tough road to walk. Is it so bad that those guys want a short cut? I think you will like the results. Corona will continue to serve you well.

Best regards,
Vlado
you guys are who decided to use shortcut by destroy your competitor. this is a shortcut for chaos group , not corona team.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: JoachimArt on 2017-08-27, 01:25:48
Since the corona team insists that it is in their best interest to continue on the same path and keep the prices around the current level, this could be a very positive thing for us all with a lot of really cool things closer on the horizon. And I think it's worth giving them a fair chance to prove it. I think the FAQ and news page lacked a bit of proper information that is important for the corona customers, leaving us all in a bit of shocked state.

That said, my initial reaction was the same as everyone else. I became a fairsaas subscriber to corona mainly because of the pricing and how easy the renderer gives you good results. I'm mainly a 2d illustrator and 3D is just a fraction of what I do. It wouldn't make sense for me to pay the price of v-ray for something I use maybe one day a week in average. And I think a lot of the corona customers has similar thoughts. They have found a renderer which was different than the usual ones, better default values and less complex but with awesome results (and don't forget the nice pricepoint). This is probably the core of all this frustration, being afraid to loose what we love or see it being swallowed into v-ray. Which is why an ignorant investor that only would poor money into corona would have seemed less intimidating.
This line of thought is based on so many similar acquisitions in this same industry.

Vlado, it's important to understand that all this frustration (or call it hate if you like) comes from strong emotions about something we LOVE... and now being afraid we will loose. It's a natural over-reaction if you feel strongly about something.

As long as Chaos group let corona live on, in its own way, I'll stick around a happy camper. :) - and probably everyone else will too.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Noah45 on 2017-08-27, 01:31:29
Vlado, thanks for your response...

My thoughts for the day..." Speed rendering of retail has no time to be troubleshooting through a plethora of variables (VRay), that's what I love (d) about Corona "

Make rendering great again! :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 01:38:56
you guys are who decided to use shortcut by destroy your competitor. this is a shortcut for chaos group , not corona team.
Nothing is being destroyed. There are two sides to each deal; it's not like we forced the guys at gunpoint, right? We've had very long discussions together about how to make this work and we are confident that we can make it happen. Corona will continue its development. I know you trust me only as far as you can throw me; it only means that we'll have to work hard to prove it.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-27, 01:42:40
That would be a pretty stupid thing for us to do, don't you think? Besides, one company can make many different models of cars (and they do!) at different price points with different characteristics and with different users.

Best regards,
Vlado

All true, but MANY people here actually used to be truckers. They drove the big ugly truck, struggled with its size, hated rev matching, had leg cramps from heavy clutch.
Then they switched to a beautiful EV and life was beautiful, it allowed them to just enjoy the ride, which is all they ever wanted.
And now, out of the blue, their beloved EV is owned by the very trucking company that made them hate driving?! Hell no!
Being emotional and impulsive many are thinking no way I'm supporting them ever again, I'll rather switch to this, especially not knowing what the future brings, and seeing other mergers like this go south.

(http://www.miamicharters.com/wp-content/uploads/Miami-Hustler-Speedboat-Charters.jpg)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 01:50:40
This is probably the core of all this frustration, being afraid to loose what we love or see it being swallowed into v-ray.
The "swallowing" part never works; we've seen it too many times. That's why we think that keeping Corona, but contributing to its development, will work best.

Quote
Vlado, it's important to understand that all this frustration (or call it hate if you like) comes from strong emotions about something we LOVE... and now being afraid we will loose. It's a natural over-reaction if you feel strongly about something.
You won't be losing it. Also, our intention is to give you even more and better tools to get your job done.

Quote
As long as Chaos group let corona live on, in its own way
This was a part of the deal from the very beginning. Do you really think Ondra would have agreed to it otherwise?

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 01:57:43
All true, but MANY people here actually used to be truckers. They drove the big ugly truck, struggled with its size, hated rev matching, had leg cramps from heavy clutch.
I'm truly sorry I caused you such pains. It was never my intent. All I've ever wanted is our software to be helpful.

Quote
Then they switched to a beautiful EV and life was beautiful, it allowed them to just enjoy the ride, which is all they ever wanted.
Perfect, because things will stay this way.

Quote
Being emotional and impulsive many are thinking no way I'm supporting them ever again, I'll rather switch to this, especially not knowing what the future brings, and seeing other mergers like this go south.
I understand and of course you will do whatever makes the most sense to you.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 02:02:26
My thoughts for the day..." Speed rendering of retail has no time to be troubleshooting through a plethora of variables (VRay), that's what I love (d) about Corona"
Why on Earth would we want to take that away from you?

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: danio1011 on 2017-08-27, 02:11:31
you guys are who decided to use shortcut by destroy your competitor. this is a shortcut for chaos group , not corona team.
Nothing is being destroyed. There are two sides to each deal; it's not like we forced the guys at gunpoint, right? We've had very long discussions together about how to make this work and we are confident that we can make it happen. Corona will continue its development. I know you trust me only as far as you can throw me; it only means that we'll have to work hard to prove it.

Best regards,
Vlado

Thanks for being present on both the CG and Corona forums, Vlado.

It would actually be really interesting to know more details about 'the deal.'  If there was some sort of pre-nup that keeps Corona from being swallowed or squelched (or prices being raised, etc) it would probably put a lot of minds at ease.  It seems like a certain level of independence is key to innovation and growth, even if there is a sharing of ideas and code with them being under the same roof now.  It would be interesting to know if this is built into the agreement (i.e., in writing).

Echoing other users, I was enjoying the competition and the quick turn around on new features.  Corona's Light mix, for example, changed my Arch Viz life.  VRaylightselect didn't become full featured until Corona's light mix came around, and one could assume that with the competition that was happening that a further integration of light select into the VRay VFB wasn't far behind.  The same with VRay's adaptive lights but in reverse. 

Anyway, it's just a wait and see situation now unless more details come out or we see the fruits of the deal.  As a side note, I'm pretty sure the MC from the D2 video is going to show up at my house and break my kneecaps because I posted this...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2017-08-27, 02:21:15
I don't know why we have so much drama here. Guys, can't you simply relax a bit and change your point of view? Our society is so fucked up lately that is hard to trust our own shadow now....  -.-

Read clearly the messages and all the info you can find on the web!

You think Ondra and Vlado are so stupid to make such an agreement?
You think Ondra sold out his passion, dedication and hard work and he is on a secret island now drinking mojito for the rest of his life?
You think the experience and hard work of Vlado can't be a great contribution for a healthy future of Corona render?
You think Vlado is a serial software killer? Seriously?

Just calm down and start to be positive with all this, there is no need to worry and make all this drama. This agreement is the best thing could happen for the Corona community and all the team. Don't be scared about it... Vray still has a very big number of users worldwide and I don't think killing the Corona engine will bring to them more money or users, don't you think? Would be such a bad and bastard move.
We don't have the rights to know more about the agreement and the reasons behind it but start being positive and trust people's words, passion and sacrifices.

Personally I am sure a new fantastic era started for both engines and we will see some very cool tech stuff in the future.

Thanks,

Dionysios -
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 02:26:22
If there was some sort of pre-nup that keeps Corona from being swallowed or squelched (or prices being raised, etc) it would probably put a lot of minds at ease.
The deal was only possible because we agreed that Corona must continue to be developed independently, as the Corona team decides. We also agreed that Corona's price point is important for its success.

Quote
VRaylightselect didn't become full featured until Corona's light mix came around
Actually, Arnold's implementation in version 5 was the more pressing concern :) Also, two large clients really needed it. We still have to do the LPEs too.

Quote
As a side note, I'm pretty sure the MC from the D2 video is going to show up at my house and break my kneecaps because I posted this...
That's too cryptic for me but I hope you kneecaps will be fine :)

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 02:30:02
Vray still has a very big number of users worldwide and I don't think killing the Corona engine will bring to them more money or users
You are not wrong :)

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 02:47:13
They said both teams would work on their own projects but for how long until they're swallowed?
Corona will continue to be developed by the Corona team as they decide.

Quote
What will happen with the FairSaaS?
It will remain fair.

Quote
And don't forget the terrible company that makes the vray conversion for c4d that takes at least months for updates and then puts out a broken version with features not working properly.
That's on us; we were young and inexperienced and we made a mistake. We will not make it again with Corona.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: danio1011 on 2017-08-27, 02:49:06
If there was some sort of pre-nup that keeps Corona from being swallowed or squelched (or prices being raised, etc) it would probably put a lot of minds at ease.
The deal was only possible because we agreed that Corona must continue to be developed independently, as the Corona team decides. We also agreed that Corona's price point is important for its success.

Good info and not unexpected, just glad to hear.  Maybe it's been said before and I missed it.  I feel like that's kind of the crux of the matter for a lot of us.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure the MC from the D2 video is going to show up at my house and break my kneecaps because I posted this...
That's too cryptic for me but I hope you kneecaps will be fine :)

Hehe, referencing this epic moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlVBsIenzg#t=13m10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlVBsIenzg#t=13m10s).
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: aldola on 2017-08-27, 04:46:53
This is a very smart move for both companies.

i think that as users we will benefit a lot, i don't know why do you see vray as an enemy, its a tool like corona and its based on the same principles hard work and passion.

i think that corona will benefit a lot from chaos group support for development, and this will benefit us all


no reason to be afraid or cry

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Njen on 2017-08-27, 06:05:53
Oh my goodness, so much wailing and gnashing of teeth...I think everyone needs to take it down a notch.

Oh and Vlado, how's that non-motion blurred caustic on motion blurred objects feature request coming along ;-)

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: GestaltDesign on 2017-08-27, 07:41:28
Two products and two price points.....of course Corona will be compromised otherwise the business model is screwed. 101 stuff guys. Nonsense that both will follow the same development curve as if they were competitors....there will be forced differentiation or the model is broken. It's painfully patronising to suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Monkeybrother on 2017-08-27, 07:44:52
Vlado,

Some people are getting very dramatic and I don't know where the sudden hate for Chaos Group comes from, I never heard anything bad about you before this. But a lot of people here came from VRay and would never go back ("It Just Works" should be the Corona slogan), and naturally people are worried. Historically, deals like this rarely turn out good for the company being bought and I think that's where the fear comes from. I think you (as in you and the Corona team) could ease the tension by giving us straight answers. The blog post being referenced is just basically a sales pitch, it doesn't help. I still have a hard time seeing that you'd keep two competing renderers in the long run and that is what's worrying me personally.

The deal was only possible because we agreed that Corona must continue to be developed independently, as the Corona team decides. We also agreed that Corona's price point is important for its success.

When you say "agreed", is this in writing?

matsu wrote:
If I am to be optimistic, we'll see a fusion of the two renderers (Corona's simplicity and foolproofness, with.. whatever benefits vray might add) and that you find in your heart (and wallet) to sell it at a decent price.
If I am to be pessimistic, you'll pick whatever tech Corona has that you miss for Vray, then discontinue Corona completely. Then hike the price of Vray further, since you have all this new and cool features.

... to which you answered:
Let's go with the optimistic version then.

What does that mean? That a fusion is the goal of this deal? What would the benefits be for Corona in that case? Its simplicity is what makes it good.



VRay is a good renderer and it served me well for years, I have nothing against you personally, but I'm not going back to wrestling with render settings in VRay again if you kill off Corona. I'd rather find another alternative altogether. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think that's what a lot of people here are thinking.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sprayer on 2017-08-27, 08:41:21
You think Ondra and Vlado are so stupid to make such an agreement?
You think Ondra sold out his passion, dedication and hard work and he is on a secret island now drinking mojito for the rest of his life?
You think the experience and hard work of Vlado can't be a great contribution for a healthy future of Corona render?
You think Vlado is a serial software killer? Seriously?
Because we already see it how was closed splutterfish (brazil r/z) to make new interactive visualizer and where it now after alpha release and several years development? How autodesk buying team and abandon development. That's why we afraid
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lasse1309 on 2017-08-27, 09:42:27
Guys, guys!

relax :D
collaboration is strong - and can be stronger than (played) competition.
Corona came up one days, yes - and v-ray changed as well since then, also became easier to use.

But does that mean v-ray stagnated during the years they left competition behind and there wa no corona?
NO! They constantly improved as well.

We are using both v-ray and corona in xoio parallely depending on the project and what makes most sense.
Honestly the vision of compatibilty seems very intriguing :D

Don't let the bad ADSK example how it should not work let yourself think it is the right way and give Chaos Group and Render Legion
a chance to show how it should and can work.

Collaboration can set forces free which are bound when "fighting" the other guys.
Only positive things can breed positive outcome.

Vlado and Ondra both are fascinating characters who would not have made it that far without a big chunk of intrinsic motivation.
Those is what fascinates and also makes their products as strong and great as they are.

Be fair, guys.
I hear words like "killing", "destroying", "terminating".
Is that what it is about? We are here to CREATE  - not to destruct.

Love
Lasse
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 10:13:23
When you say "agreed", is this in writing?
We added text to the contract to ensure that Corona continues to be developed, yes.

Quote
What does that mean? That a fusion is the goal of this deal? What would the benefits be for Corona in that case? Its simplicity is what makes it good.
It means that we will help the Corona team with anything they might find useful, like 2d displacement, clipper, OpenVDB and Phoenix support and other things, and it will continue to be offered at a decent price.

Quote
but I'm not going back to wrestling with render settings in VRay again if you kill off Corona. I'd rather find another alternative altogether. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think that's what a lot of people here are thinking.
I know that, of course. You should be able to use the tools that you are happy with. I've always said so on the V-Ray forum, even long before this happened. If Corona works better for you, it's great and we want to keep it this way. I don't have any delusions that you would go back.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: JoachimArt on 2017-08-27, 10:23:32
Quote
The deal was only possible because we agreed that Corona must continue to be developed independently, as the Corona team decides. We also agreed that Corona's price point is important for its success.

This is exactly the kind of things that were just partly explained in the news story which the corona users needs to hear (over and over apparently :D ).
I really hope this all works out the way you intend it to do, it can be an even brighter future for both renderers. Thank you Vlado for taking the time to explain things further.

It would be nice if everyone calm down a bit now, stay positive and hope for the best. It's smart and decent people behind both of these renderers ;)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 10:24:18
Because we already see it how was closed splutterfish (brazil r/z) to make new interactive visualizer and where it now after alpha release and several years development? How autodesk buying team and abandon development. That's why we afraid
Yes, there are those examples. However I believe that there is a difference; we are both small companies compared to Imagination Technologies and Autodesk, and we both deeply care about the products we develop. Imagination Technologies is a hardware company and their only interest was to develop those acceleration boards. It's also not clear how long Brazil r/s would have survived on its own (believe it or not, rendering is not a terribly profitable business). The whole M&E sector is a blip on Autodesk's bottom line. On the other hand, both our companies have a common goal - to give you the best tools to visualize your ideas and one of those tools is Corona.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Monkeybrother on 2017-08-27, 10:58:46
When you say "agreed", is this in writing?
We added text to the contract to ensure that Corona continues to be developed, yes.

Quote
What does that mean? That a fusion is the goal of this deal? What would the benefits be for Corona in that case? Its simplicity is what makes it good.
It means that we will help the Corona team with anything they might find useful, like 2d displacement, clipper, OpenVDB and Phoenix support and other things, and it will continue to be offered at a decent price.

Quote
but I'm not going back to wrestling with render settings in VRay again if you kill off Corona. I'd rather find another alternative altogether. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think that's what a lot of people here are thinking.
I know that, of course. You should be able to use the tools that you are happy with. I've always said so on the V-Ray forum, even long before this happened. If Corona works better for you, it's great and we want to keep it this way. I don't have any delusions that you would go back.

Best regards,
Vlado

Thanks.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Flavius on 2017-08-27, 11:00:47
Ok,

Now that I've cooled down a bit, and seeing Vlado spending time here replying maybe the devil isn't so black, hehe. J/k.

There are still some unsettling things, I just don't understand why, from a business point of view, invest money in extra hardware and extra salaries and all the added tax on top of that to develop two softwares that have the same output. If we are being told that Corona will have VFX and so on, then what will be the difference? The interface and render settings? What for, why have two softwares? Something is not right... And doubling the Corona dev team, but pricing to stay the same ... Is Chaos Group doing charity work here? People reacted the way they did, mainly based on ...well history and what happened when a bigger fish swallows the smaller one, and that we really liked the way Corona was developing now/pricing/ dev team attitudine and the whole atmosphere. Of course there is a general sentiment of fear and uncertainty. The great majority of people reacted in a negative way but I think they had a proper reason to do so. I was stunned when I first saw the news.

I am 50/50 at the moment... IF

1. Pricing doens't go insane.
2. Corona will not become with fifty million render settings
3. It will continue a proper development road with ALL the needed features and I will not hear "You have our sister product V-ray for x/y/z"
4. Ondra still posts poneys

Then I'm happy.

And I'm not a V-ray hater, I've been using it for for than 10 years, but I was happy when Corona freed me from the shackles of render settings and normal and distance thresholds from the Ir map.

And, for no particulary reason, here is one of the my first CG images ever done. (contest on defunct 3dcaffeine forums, Wordplay theme-Scholar-ship)
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: iacdxb on 2017-08-27, 11:19:23
Hi Vlado,

Nice to see you here at C4D forum.

I am new to Corona at learning stage. I am/ was also VrayforC4D user since many years. I saw many user who were using VrayforC4D and now using Corona and everyone told me leave VrayforC4D and go for Corona. No doubt what Eddoron said.

Best of luck with corona, hope we will see Corona more productive, enhanced and polished.


Regards,
Imran.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: romullus on 2017-08-27, 11:24:40
What a mess! I merged all the threads into main one. Please stick all your discussions on this topic in one place.

By the way, does anyone knows if Ondra or someone else from Corona Team has made some comments on that yet? I'm visiting only the forum, so might be missing some crucial info :/
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: pokoy on 2017-08-27, 11:27:10
Because we already see it how was closed splutterfish (brazil r/z) to make new interactive visualizer and where it now after alpha release and several years development? How autodesk buying team and abandon development. That's why we afraid
Yes, there are those examples. However I believe that there is a difference; we are both small companies compared to Imagination Technologies and Autodesk, and we both deeply care about the products we develop. Imagination Technologies is a hardware company and their only interest was to develop those acceleration boards. It's also not clear how long Brazil r/s would have survived on its own (believe it or not, rendering is not a terribly profitable business). The whole M&E sector is a blip on Autodesk's bottom line. On the other hand, both our companies have a common goal - to give you the best tools to visualize your ideas and one of those tools is Corona.

Best regards,
Vlado
True. Imgtec was mainly interested in having a raytracer/pathtracer renderer, back then NVIDIA acquired mental ray, AMD had their own plans with similar technology, and as a hardware house imgtec needed Brazil in their portfolio to be competitive (shareholders etc.). And there WAS active development taking place, Caustic cards WERE handed out to alpha testers, it's just that imgtec lost their vision and the decision makers had not understood in time that their hardware won't be able to compete in the PC market, and the gaming market just didn't need raytracers.

On another note, as a 'first-hand-witness' of the Caustic takeover and the subsequent EOL of Brazil I have to say that the comments on their forums have NEVER been so hostile towards the acquiring company. People were sad, mad but not downright offensive as in this thread.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: hrisek on 2017-08-27, 11:38:18
I'm sad :( If on the market are 3-4 big companies, than companies have to be competitive with other companies. If one important company is going to be part of other important company, than is no chance to get competitive market. Prices will change (upper, not lower), updates will be with less new features. Autodesk has done it many times (actually Autodesk has discontinued Softimage software...). Well, i hope Corone will get 1.7 and prices will not change.
Greetings
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Fritzlachatte on 2017-08-27, 11:45:38
The people all over the world (wide web) love David and Goliath comparisons. But this one doesn´t really fit.

What I always recognized and actually found sympathetic over the years, was the respectful intercourse with Chaosgroup and vice versa.
If people weeped because of Vray peeves, Ondra "and his crew" never found a discrediting word. It was some kind of coexistence at eye level.

There are many new chances and the idea of beeing able to use a vray model directly without the need of balancing gloss, bump etc. is nice.
A few years ago vray was a newcomer and the holy grail. Even today I wouldn´t compare them with Autodesk or Adobe. But if you want to do so, chaosgroup are more a garagestore combined with those players.
Has anybody ever thought, that Renderlegion just didn´t earn enough money. With me, they earned a few bucks for a very kind student´s license for playing around and just experementing a little bit.That is just a drop in a bucket. But worse are those, who are not even willing to invest anything, just trusting in piracy. I believe "our guys" have been just too nice! Professionals in R&D but not in financial questions.
I know there are coexistences, Porsche wanted to swollow Volkswagen, but as time told us, VW gulped Porsche, both are on the market, more than before! But if RL isn´t careful or blue eyed, they will end like Lancia, being a quirky mascot on the siding.

But all people here should learn, because they can´t change it anyway " in dubio pro reo!" give them time before you roll out the shitstorm. btw.Fstorm wants to earn money as well and their
(or his) alphaphase was much much shorter.

The only thing I don´t like is the way, how RL /Vlado encircle the price tag question. It is affronting their customers intelligence. By overemphasising, corona will be continued, they spare out the 2nd common question.  "We have decided not to disclose transaction details.Let’s not make it all about the money. "     
It might be okay if RL thinks it is indispensable these days, but hey, we all know at the end it is all about the money, and this is where "friendship" usually ends.

But guys, it isn´t worth forming a riotous mob :-)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: j_man on 2017-08-27, 11:53:25
Hi,

I thought I would speak up to help rebalance as there seems to be a lot of negativity about this.

I was lucky to be on hand to persoanlly congratulate the Corona team at D2. This is a clever match that will ensure the survival of Corona and accelerate the development of features with technology that Vlado and the team at the ChaosGroup have worked hard to develop since the start of VRay. I am looking forward to closer intergration of the two and using whichever renderer suits the needs of the task at hand with as little fuss as possible.
Thank you to both the Corona and VRay teams for being on hand to answer question personally at the D2, and to Vlado for taking the time to talk directly to people on the forums. Exciting times!

Josh.
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: Marvey on 2017-08-27, 12:31:36

Quote
And don't forget the terrible company that makes the vray conversion for c4d that takes at least months for updates and then puts out a broken version with features not working properly.
That's on us; we were young and inexperienced and we made a mistake. We will not make it again with Corona.

Best regards,
Vlado

Good news!! corona  for c4d team is doing one amazing job with the conversion!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Rhodesy on 2017-08-27, 13:16:53
Yes can't wait for the final c4d release. It's a shame CG doesn't have full control over the Vray C4D version as we saw modo integration race past us. Also hope some more time can be put in to a corona sketchup plugin now.

I'm really hoping there can be a fully universal cross app node based material editor. It makes so much sense rather than embedding all the settings in each app and working around each local restrictions and limitations. Just use the hosts mapping tools that's it. Is this possible?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: BBB3viz on 2017-08-27, 13:28:23
I'm with Lasse on this. I think this is a good move for me as a user for several reasons:

First I think Vlado deserves a lot more credit than he's being given here (or at least the benefit of the doubt). Think about it: how many companies of the size of Chaos do we see that are still owned by the guy who developed the product in the first place? This is why all comparisons with ADesk, a listed company that works for investors, spends vastly more on marketing than it does on R&D, has only contempt for its users, and has locked itself in a business model that is driving both the company and its customers into the wall, are absurd. You should judge a company on its track record, and Chaos' track record on everything from innovation to customer care is completely pristine. To me, that makes a huge difference.

Second, I'm a both a V-Ray and a Corona user because both have significant advantages over the other and offer things that are not available in the other. And, like Peter Guthrie, I'm very excited about the cross-pollination that may come out of this deal, in terms of each team getting access to the discoveries of the other, and the things that we love in both packages finding their way into the other. Corona is a great product, but it's not perfect (displacement, RAM consumption, no GPU, tricky animation all come to mind) and if the deal can speed up improvements in those area, what's not to like about it. Hell, even if both products were to merge one day, would that even be such a bad thing? Maybe not, if it means combining the upside of both products into one and having to maintain one license instead of two. It might end up being cheaper and making my life easier.

And even if the products are to stay separate, which seems to be what was contractually agreed, what's wrong about Ondra's team getting access to more financial firepower and a treasure trove of tech to be mined as he wishes? I can't thing of any circumstance in which it would be bad news. In fact, this has already started happening and I can't remember anyone being unhappy with all the good things that have already come out of this cooperation for Corona, even though we didn't know there was some Vray tech behind it. Same goes for Vray: I'm a big fan of the direction it has taken in the recent past.

Last, I'm surprised by the amount of criticism that's being thrown at the Corona team for taking the money such a deal implies. Why? These guys have worked hard for years, built a fantastic product, amassed a large audience. It seems only fair that they should be rewarded for it. This is especially the case when you look at the care they appear to have taken to ensure that their product lives on and their users get a better deal out of it. I say bravo and congrats!

To me, this is only good news on so many different levels. And I wish the skeptics, whose misgivings I understand, would at the very least give the new team some time to prove itself.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: ^Lele^ on 2017-08-27, 13:40:59
Lele posted on the chaosg forum: "Want things quick, Corona, want to go deeper, V-Ray.", that would be a reality..... so much for making rendering fun again :c

I believe it's all well cleared now (and will be clearer in the future), but my writing could indeed have been a bit more accurate, sorry for that.
But the point stands: if no one in the Corona user pool needs deep EXRs (i am making a thought experiment here, it may or may not reflect reality.), why should Corona implement them and inevitably increase clutter?
On the other hand, should the feature be requested, well, it so happens the one for V-Ray is production-proven (as it was production-requested!) a few times over, and it could perhaps be ported if needed, which is overall much cheaper on resources than for the RL team to go through all the coding phases anew (A.K.A. re-inventing the wheel.).

I hope I was clearer this time around, sorry again for the poor wording.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: j_man on 2017-08-27, 15:14:07
.  As a side note, I'm pretty sure the MC from the D2 video is going to show up at my house and break my kneecaps because I posted this...

Do you mean Peter the co-founder and CEO of the ChaosGroup?

J.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Demogorgon on 2017-08-27, 16:06:07
Vorona render.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: scottofazphx on 2017-08-27, 16:08:14
Alot of hate and sadness here, and ill add to that. I think this is a horrible move, im sure Render Legion has its reasons and i hope its for more then just a paycheck. As others have said i came to corona from vray, from the endless sea of tweaking settings and rendering over and over and over. Anyone in business knows what this leads to. This is the end of corona, might take years but development will stop and eventually be phased out. Look at the Macintosh and the Lisa products from Apple....cant have two competing products that do the same thing from the same company thats to much $$$ R&D costs. Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Title: Re: Chaos group (Vray) acquires Render Legion (Corona)
Post by: Nikola on 2017-08-27, 16:12:33

Quote
And don't forget the terrible company that makes the vray conversion for c4d that takes at least months for updates and then puts out a broken version with features not working properly.
That's on us; we were young and inexperienced and we made a mistake. We will not make it again with Corona.

Best regards,
Vlado

Good news!! corona  for c4d team is doing one amazing job with the conversion!

I appreciate your support Marvey. I'm just sitting at my computer and I am trying to figure out by trial and error how to properly allocate Multipass Buffers in Team render in all cases (I hope this is the last bug). It's sometimes quite frustrating to use poorly documented Cinema 4D API, which is the main reason why there are the delays in the releases (not the Chaos Group), but I still think the work (to have well-integrated Corona in Cinema 4D) is worth it. Thank you again, and you can look forward to tomorrow's daily build if I fix the bug I am working on it right now.

Best regards,
Nikola
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: duke on 2017-08-27, 16:39:57
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here with Corona being more simple than Vray. For the past 3.5 years (since Vray 3.0) I adjust only 2 (two) settings in Vray - Noise Threshold and Render Time and then I press Render. That's it! Since Vray 3.0 there is no more fiddling with light or material subdivs, irradiance maps and other switches and settings. Out of the box it's as simple as Corona.

Unfortunately, people still perpetuate the myth that Vray is more complicated which is understandable maybe because they stopped using it before version 3.0 came out. Of course, if you are a power user, you have the ability to unlock all the pro settings and fine tune it to the maximum like before version 3.0. I challenge anyone to point me out what exactly is complicated with Vray in the recent versions (or even version 3.0 for that matter which is now more than 3 years old).
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: speltospel on 2017-08-27, 16:54:19
Dear Vlado
no one hated the Corona team. what are you talking about. Everyone adores these guys.

everyone hates Vray (chaos) for what you did. you swallow them.
A small flower made its way through the asphalt. you ripped it off.

there is a saying "keep your friends close and enemies even closer" so You just bought your enemies.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Flavius on 2017-08-27, 17:09:03
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here with Corona being more simple than Vray. [...] Out of the box it's as simple as Corona.

I have to disagree, I admit I stopped using V-ray right when 3.0 was launched. I've worked in the product viz industry and there, changes of +5/-5 in HSV where catastrophic. The main problem was the lighting. In Vray I had to make 3 lights, one which was only affecting diffuse, one for reflection and one for..specular. With Corona, one light is enough as somehow things are way more realistic and balanced.

I don't hate ChaosGroup, but I know this. If it wasn't for Corona, I would have a much shittier situation and I wouldn't have one of my main clients. And If it wasn't for corona awesome FairSaas license, I really don't know what I could've done. I surely couldn't pay 850 euros for Vray
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: duke on 2017-08-27, 17:20:51
It's somewhat disapponting to read all these responses. Guys like Ondra and the rest of the Corona team are extremely rare, and they chose to work (very hard) for you. They can do many amazing things for you in the future as well. Still somehow you turned from loyal supporters to pure hatred in a single day. Hate me all you like, however those guys have been nothing but good to you.

I've worked on V-Ray really hard for 15 years, long days and many nights including weekends, with very few vacations, and no sick leaves to get where I am today (no matter how much you despise my work). It's a tough road to walk. Is it so bad that those guys want a short cut? I think you will like the results. Corona will continue to serve you well.

Best regards,
Vlado
you guys are who decided to use shortcut by destroy your competitor. this is a shortcut for chaos group , not corona team.

From New Horizons – plans for 2017 and beyond (https://corona-renderer.com/blog/new-horizons-plans-for-2017-and-beyond/)

Quote
Why did Render Legion decide to join Chaos Group?
We were looking for a strategic partner who would like to help us grow and who shared the same vision in the CG field. Chaos Group was able to offer us important knowledge in this field, with the resources and expertise to achieve our goals.

Quote
We shifted our focus to looking for a strategical partner instead, someone who shares our passion for CG graphics. We realised that such a partner could be Vlado and Peter from Chaos Group.

Neither Vlado nor anyone else at Chaos Group wants to destroy Corona. As you can see, it's the Corona team who approached Chaos Group for partnership. I think that some of you are way too emotional, which is understandable. So much so that you are willing to make up lies. As the developers of Corona put it, this will benefit both Vray and Corona users.

Last but not least, to further dispel the lies that Chaos Group want to destroy Corona, take a look for example at the upcoming Corona 1.7 release. It will use Vray's DMC sampler which will massively decrease render times. 2x render speed up on average from what I read. I won't say that this is "destroying" Corona. More like destroying the noise in Corona's renders faster. :)


I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here with Corona being more simple than Vray. [...] Out of the box it's as simple as Corona.

I have to disagree, I admit I stopped using V-ray right when 3.0 was launched. I've worked in the product viz industry and there, changes of +5/-5 in HSV where catastrophic.
What is +5/-5 in HSV? Never heard of this.

The main problem was the lighting. In Vray I had to make 3 lights, one which was only affecting diffuse, one for reflection and one for..specular. With Corona, one light is enough as somehow things are way more realistic and balanced.
That's strange. I've never had to create 3 separate lights instead of one with any Vray version. I'm not sure why you did this. Looks like you didn't do your materials properly if you had issues with speculars and reflections.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 17:27:26
there is a saying "keep your friends close and enemies even closer" so You just bought your enemies.
There is another saying that goes "an enemy is just a friend you haven't made yet." I like it better.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 17:43:20
This is the end of corona, might take years but development will stop and eventually be phased out.
I don't think that will be the case. Corona's code and architecture is quite modern and will carry it forward for a long time.

Quote
Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Maybe it will be around, but the truth is that V-Ray is getting old. I don't know if you've seen Cars 3, it's a very nice movie and somewhat relevant to the discussion :)

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 17:46:34
If it wasn't for Corona, I would have a much shittier situation and I wouldn't have one of my main clients. And If it wasn't for corona awesome FairSaas license, I really don't know what I could've done.
That's great and we want to keep it this way.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 17:50:06
A small flower made its way through the asphalt. you ripped it off.
I don't think we ripped it off, I'd like to think we gave it more space to grow and regular fresh water.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Jadefox on 2017-08-27, 18:26:25
Hats off to you Vlado for taking the time and responding to a very shocked community
I can comment and respect that
oh and remember, make rendering great again : )
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lukx on 2017-08-27, 18:27:48
Good to see Vlado here :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-27, 18:45:01
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here with Corona being more simple than Vray. For the past 3.5 years (since Vray 3.0) I adjust only 2 (two) settings in Vray - Noise Threshold and Render Time and then I press Render. That's it! Since Vray 3.0 there is no more fiddling with light or material subdivs, irradiance maps and other switches and settings. Out of the box it's as simple as Corona.

Unfortunately, people still perpetuate the myth that Vray is more complicated which is understandable maybe because they stopped using it before version 3.0 came out. Of course, if you are a power user, you have the ability to unlock all the pro settings and fine tune it to the maximum like before version 3.0. I challenge anyone to point me out what exactly is complicated with Vray in the recent versions (or even version 3.0 for that matter which is now more than 3 years old).

Cautiously .. :), it's not myths. Vray -noise Threshold? Maybe only those two settings you know, the rabbit's horn is deeper than you think ..
peace with you. :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-27, 18:56:06
Cautiously .. :), it's not myths. Vray -noise Threshold? Maybe only those two settings you know, the rabbit's horn is deeper than you think ..
peace with you. :)
Maybe it would be best to leave this discussion for another thread :)

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: romullus on 2017-08-27, 19:05:19
Preferably for another forum too :]
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: duke on 2017-08-27, 19:13:18
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here with Corona being more simple than Vray. For the past 3.5 years (since Vray 3.0) I adjust only 2 (two) settings in Vray - Noise Threshold and Render Time and then I press Render. That's it! Since Vray 3.0 there is no more fiddling with light or material subdivs, irradiance maps and other switches and settings. Out of the box it's as simple as Corona.

Unfortunately, people still perpetuate the myth that Vray is more complicated which is understandable maybe because they stopped using it before version 3.0 came out. Of course, if you are a power user, you have the ability to unlock all the pro settings and fine tune it to the maximum like before version 3.0. I challenge anyone to point me out what exactly is complicated with Vray in the recent versions (or even version 3.0 for that matter which is now more than 3 years old).

Cautiously .. :), it's not myths. Vray -noise Threshold? Maybe only those two settings you know, the rabbit's horn is deeper than you think ..
peace with you. :)

Sorry to break it to you but yes, IT IS a myth. :) I know Vray like the fingers on my hands, I've used it for 13 years now and I know every single setting front to back and back to front. Fortunately, since version 3.0 in 99% of my daily use I no longer have to touch anything except Noise Threshold and Render Time. I'm not sure why you don't want to accept the truth. The facts are the facts and they don't change if you say "it's not as you say it". Of course, we have to give credit where credit is due because if it was not for Corona, maybe Chaos wouldn't have changed Vray to be out of the box a simple user friendly render engine.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: yagi on 2017-08-27, 19:18:53
What can I say but, WOW! I'm heartbroken. Can I ask that chaos relinquish the agreement if possible and leave our beloved corona alone, if it's not too late? I don't mean to say it but we all know what the competition going on between these two brought about, both developers had to sit up better than ever before especially chaos group as I noticed they emulated some of the things corona brought in innovatively...."competition is healthy" Let's face it. I don't know how much money was involved to cajole the minds of the corona team into agreeing into the contract" just bare in mind u don't need a gun at their heads to force them into signing a contract, a mouth watering amount or opportunity will suffice even better than gun-point would" ...even John snow would bend the knee :( . Yes, it was their free will to do so at their best interest doesn't mean they haven't made a mistake only chaos could clearly see. The only way it would work is if both parties truly mean well for each other and have purest of hearts and intentions that won't get corrupted by greed in the near future, because even the best of friends fight and back stab each other in this wicked world as we know it, it's just common in Buisness! I've paid good money for corona, invested in, prayed for, and appreciated the developers thus so far so having to witness this day has hurt me just as much as my wife cheating on me! Then later she tells me I did it for our future n the kids? Like seriously, there has to be a phenomenal and strategic reason for sleeping with your competitor or enemy. I will have to think this through and either wait for the end of corona soon n move to something new or just have faith that everything is going to be alright cos I just can't go back to vray or mental ray. So pls, chaos, make my corona greater than ever and keep each others promises so I won't hate you both and regret this unbelievable union. Cheers
Btw: I'm not married :I
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ondra on 2017-08-27, 19:23:52
I finally returned from D2, caught some sleep, and read the entire topic. Thanks to vlado for responding to a lot of concerns. I will respond to some more posts I picked where I have something to add - most fears were already touched upon in our announcement and by people here. It all comes down down to single thing: some users not trusting us. And I mean trusting me and rest of Corona team, not Chaosgroup, as this was not a hostile takeover, and we even initiated the deal. It is pretty clear that nothing we say will convince some people, so I am asking you:

Come check with us in 6 months, or a year, and see what the situation is then. Hopefully you will be convinced by then. I understand that you have seen some bad things happen to other companies, but there was not a single instance of Chaosgroup killing off a competitor. This is like refusing to ever date and get married, because 2 of your friends got divorces...

The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?

Yes, this will happen, but it has been happening already. We were rejecting feature requests because of extremely low value to work/complications ratio, but because they just flat out contradicted the corona philosophy (for example: support for obscure little-known VFX plugins, support for fakes such as disabling backside reflection, specular reflections instead of full GI glossy reflection, fake AO rendering modes, ...). But still we were forced to make Corona closer to VRay that we would have wanted, and it already shown negatively with some people leaving Corona because it became "too complex" for them. Now it will be easier for us to realize our vision of high-quality, fast, zero-hassle renderer without having to think of bottom line (keeping up with VRay in every aspect). Do you need a very special legacy feature for 1 in 10 projects? Switch to VRay for it! You assets will work out of the box with no converters, and your subscription will give you license.

Note that this does not actually mean "archviz only" or "no VFX allowed" - our vision is actually to make these markets as hassle-free as we made archviz ;)

cut the sunny salesmen talk

We tried that for the D2 announcement, and some called it "wildly unproffesional" ;)

Already one presence of DMC sampler adds in render settings at least 5 new positions and switches/////////////

If there is a new tab in 1.6.2 or latest daily, please report it on mantis as a bug, because new switches for DMC are not necessary and we did not add them ;)

The only thing I don´t like is the way, how RL /Vlado encircle the price tag question. It is affronting their customers intelligence. By overemphasising, corona will be continued, they spare out the 2nd common question.  "We have decided not to disclose transaction details.Let’s not make it all about the money.
Do you mean the price of product or price of acquisition? The first one was already answered - it will not change. The second one does not influence the customers in any way, so we have decided to not publish it.


It might be okay if RL thinks it is indispensable these days, but hey, we all know at the end it is all about the money
If we were really after money, both I and vlado would be working for google or facebook, making more people click on ads. Rendering is not really lucrative business; render farms make probably more money on Corona than we do. We enjoy doing what we do, and that is why we survived in this business - over the years we have seen other renderers trying to do the cash grab that came and went. Corona wouldnt be successful if i was not willing to invest my last student money into it to keep it free as long as possible. It was not about the money back then, and it is not now ;).

Anyone in business knows what this leads to. This is the end of corona, might take years but development will stop and eventually be phased out. Look at the Macintosh and the Lisa products from Apple....cant have two competing products that do the same thing from the same company thats to much $$$ R&D costs. Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.

Actually, if this was about money, then it would make perfect sense to kill off V-Ray now, as its development team is 10 times bigger, and hence costs 10 times more money, and keep only Corona, which most people here would agree is "better" ;)

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: mugambi on 2017-08-27, 19:36:26
Somehow we have to accept and move on. My speculation is that there is more than meets the eye that we don’t know, RL made the first move.
So much in life happens, and in such situations you better make peace and leave your baby to the most suitable parents of who has the knowledge and capacity for growth for your baby.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: JoachimArt on 2017-08-27, 19:46:01
I feel like thanking Vlad, and now Ondra too, for being so patient and answered the same questions and panic attacks over and over in a peaceful matter. Corona for me is the best thing that has ever happened to rendering and I now feel quite confident it will continue to stay that way. Cheers :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-27, 20:06:26
Sorry to break it to you but yes, IT IS a myth. :) I know Vray like the fingers on my hands, I've used it for 13 years now and I know every single setting front to back and back to front. Fortunately, since version 3.0 in 99% of my daily use I no longer have to touch anything except Noise Threshold and Render Time. I'm not sure why you don't want to accept the truth. The facts are the facts and they don't change if you say "it's not as you say it". Of course, we have to give credit where credit is due because if it was not for Corona, maybe Chaos wouldn't have changed Vray to be out of the box a simple user friendly render engine.

He respected very much :) but he does not impress me .. cautiously :).off top.
In the evening I try to write more and some of my "BUT"

Vlado - thanks for coming here.

Regards
dog.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Fritzlachatte on 2017-08-27, 20:20:24
@ Ondra
Quote
    It might be okay if RL thinks it is indispensable these days, but hey, we all know at the end it is all about the money

If we were really after money, both I and vlado would be working for google or facebook, making more people click on ads. Rendering is not really lucrative business; render farms make probably more money on Corona than we do. We enjoy doing what we do, and that is why we survived in this business - over the years we have seen other renderers trying to do the cash grab that came and went. Corona wouldnt be successful if i was not willing to invest my last student money into it to keep it free as long as possible. It was not about the money back then, and it is not now ;).

Then I am sorry, that you got me wrong. When I wrote, it is all about the money, it means,( as it was a little circumscribed in my prior text), that you just want to survive in your business, as it is everywhere. Not to become rich and grease.
I am no CG-artist, and sorry for beeing more an interested amateur with another background. But in my and every other business it would be 1:1 the same.
To your former question: 
Quote
Do you mean the price of product or price of acquisition?
Of course I meant the 1st one, the 2nd doesn´t have to interest me.
I just have seen too late, that this question was later commented under your blog post, sorry. But thanks for taking your time for answering. I generally didn´t want to make my post look harsh in any kind ...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ondra on 2017-08-27, 20:31:08
oh, then the answer in our blog post is purely on the second question, not the first one.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Rhodesy on 2017-08-27, 20:32:00
Vlado has been very patient in the face of a lot of hostile vray bashing which is unjustified and also misleading with the more recent vray versions. Got to admire him for that. I too was quite shocked and initially disappointed yesterday but the more I think about it the more of the positives I'm seeing. The fact that both Vlado and Ondra are sticking their necks on the line and reassuring us personally does fill me with more confidence too.

My thoughts are just how is this going to effect vray. What features is vray going to take over from corona as it already has everything? The key differences between the two are simplicity but more than that now (as that gap closes with each vray release) is coronas out of the box ultra realistic light sampling. Is vray going to take that on to refresh its older lighting calcs?

Like I mentioned in an earlier post I would love a universal material editor across host apps and even now across both corona and vray and even share vray scene file code. That would make asset creation and purchasing amazing. Just being able to get a universal format that works out of the box. please make this feature happen!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: melviso on 2017-08-27, 20:53:02
 I think Ondra has every right to do what he wants. It is his renderer afterall. People's reaction is proof of how people have come to love the renderer and its community. Myself included. So it's only normal for people to want to protect or defend something they love. Give it time, people will come round. About the deal between Ondra and Vray devs, 5 years from now will give us answers. A lot will happen between that time frame so perhaps, the best line of action is to wait and see.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Fritzlachatte on 2017-08-27, 20:57:23
Adam:
Quote
What with the pricing and licensing policy? Will be some serious changes? We’d like to stay at normal price as usual.

Tom Grimes:
Quote
Pricing will stay the same.


This is what I meant with "answered/commented".
Shouldn´t be confound with acquisition in terms of "buy-out", but maybe I´m slow on the uptake and don´t get the clue. But my question either way was answered.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Benny on 2017-08-27, 21:29:44
I don't think that will be the case. Corona's code and architecture is quite modern and will carry it forward for a long time.

Quote
Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Maybe it will be around, but the truth is that V-Ray is getting old. I don't know if you've seen Cars 3, it's a very nice movie and somewhat relevant to the discussion :)

Hmm, I actually feel you somehow spilled the beans here but few seems to have noticed.  :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vicmds on 2017-08-27, 22:08:47
I'm happy for the team! It is a business after all. If we all think of ourselves - as individuals - as small businesses, we'll understand it's all about balancing honest work with profitability (which can absolutely be honest on its own). The same applies for proper companies. Until now, these fine people gave us no reason to doubt them.

Of course I'm somewhat concerned about Corona losing its affordability in the long term. I believe I'm in a more peculiar category of users here, since 3D visualization is not my main activity. But because of how affordable and straight forward this renderer is, and having had experience with other Autodesk software, it was quite easy to integrate 3ds Max into my daily workflow.

It seems Corona opened many doors for this new type of user. Now I can use it for product design, graphic design, proper engineering or Archviz - both for final visualizations and project development - without going bankrupt. And achieving excellent quality. With internal use, this quality is now expected from me every day.

I hope the team keeps noticing us, as I strongly believe there are users on very different parts of the spectrum!

Congratulations and regards!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Askhab on 2017-08-27, 22:13:43
We saw how fast was Corona bringing new cool features and how V-ray woke up and joined the competition. Now there will be no competition and this is saddest thing for both products
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: ThomasCoote on 2017-08-27, 22:18:34
I have full trust in the Corona team, it's Choas Group I'm not so sure about. I may have missed this somewhere, but how much control do you guys retain with regards to pricing, decision making, and whether or not to even continue offering Corona as an alternative to Vray.

If the Chaos Group guys say to you in a year, we want to mothball Corona, what's your recourse? Is their say final?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sjmoir on 2017-08-27, 22:34:14
I don't think that will be the case. Corona's code and architecture is quite modern and will carry it forward for a long time.

Quote
Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Maybe it will be around, but the truth is that V-Ray is getting old. I don't know if you've seen Cars 3, it's a very nice movie and somewhat relevant to the discussion :)

Hmm, I actually feel you somehow spilled the beans here but few seems to have noticed.  :)


I noticed... I think Ondra and Vlado are up to something...

I love V-Ray and Corona, great products designed by clever teams, both have a track record of being a decent bunch of people. I think it's great news. Embrace change! Exciting times ahead, congratulations to all involved.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-08-27, 22:37:02
I don't think that will be the case. Corona's code and architecture is quite modern and will carry it forward for a long time.

Quote
Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Maybe it will be around, but the truth is that V-Ray is getting old. I don't know if you've seen Cars 3, it's a very nice movie and somewhat relevant to the discussion :)

Hmm, I actually feel you somehow spilled the beans here but few seems to have noticed.  :)

... yes, this is an interesting comment :) but what is it with cars 3? why is it relevant?
and why the heck doesnt the browser stay in the thread when you post something? :D
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: alessandromichelazzi on 2017-08-28, 00:26:14
Come on guys, is like having a Ferrari and a Lamborghini in the same garage!

I saw this announcement from the first moment as a big advantage for everyone. As myself, I'm already a Corona and Vray on Modo user. We're just using the right tool for the job we've to do. 
And now Ondra and the team, as asked in Wien, with bigger budget and resources, please port Corona also for Modo!!! :))))
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Monkeybrother on 2017-08-28, 09:14:13
I don't think that will be the case. Corona's code and architecture is quite modern and will carry it forward for a long time.

Quote
Vray is the flagship from Chaos, so it will always win.
Maybe it will be around, but the truth is that V-Ray is getting old. I don't know if you've seen Cars 3, it's a very nice movie and somewhat relevant to the discussion :)

Hmm, I actually feel you somehow spilled the beans here but few seems to have noticed.  :)

... yes, this is an interesting comment :) but what is it with cars 3? why is it relevant?
and why the heck doesnt the browser stay in the thread when you post something? :D

Google says "At its root, Cars 3 is a story about getting old and figuring out how to accept that you can’t stay on top forever."
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Lucutus on 2017-08-28, 09:21:23
Corona joining chaos group....even if i really try to feel happy abput it...it doesnt work at all.
I cant remember of a "fusion" like this in this industry that had a happy end.

In the first one or two years it might seem that the "benefits" from this "fusion" are great but on the long rung i fear that this was the first day of corona dying.

From the point of view of chaos group i can only see one reason for "investing" in corona....eliminating a rival.

greetz

Lucutus
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: hrisek on 2017-08-28, 10:13:15
In our company i'm working with Vray for animations (big projects, with huge amount of objects, large areas) - because i need clean renders with some simplest solutions (interpolated GI but no splotches). For still frames like archiviz i'm using Corona 1.6. It's very good deal for us to have a choice at any moment of project what we have and which engine is better at this moment. For fast works and when we have only few hours to prepare something less realistic but with animated camera and objects - than we are using Lumion 7.5 . It's a choice. I want to have a choice. I hope Vray Team, which have one of the best support team around CG market (support for users is really fast, similar to Corona Team support for users), will give us a choice in next years and Corona will be still alive.
Greetings
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: filipskrzat on 2017-08-28, 10:26:08
Let's face it, we are all just worried about falling into mainstream again :D

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Christa Noel on 2017-08-28, 10:30:39
Let's face it, we are all just worried about falling into mainstream again :D
yup, simply just face it.
:D
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Fritzlachatte on 2017-08-28, 10:31:20
Patience is a fine trait.

We all should look forward and imagine new interesting constellations. If we really could switch licenses, if I understood right, there could be the chance to test out e.g. Vray for Unreal Engine.
Maybe there would be a crossover and the corona scene works with Vray for Unreal as well. With the opportunity to have a straight transferpipeline with Epic´s tool Datasmith many older dreams could become true. It reminds me to the days when fiddeling around with the Duke Nukem 3D editor, but with stunning visual appearance.

Last week I met a woman, always talkin about beeing "open minded" until my gorge was rising, but this is what many people should be, a little bit more "open minded"!
It is more about interesting stuff to come in future, instead of just e.g. caustics etc.
 
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Fluss on 2017-08-28, 10:45:56
Well, there is a little bit too much drama here, but i understand that people can be feared by such a news.

Personnally, I'm worried of one thing : innovation.

I'm afraid that this brings us to just features being ported between the two engines. Some features will be ported the Vray or the corona way from one engine to the other. That speed up the process but that does not mean that it was implemented the best way. So plz, don't fall into the copy/paste workflow and try to keep the critical eye to always try to implements things the best way they can, by asking the community and not just implementing features that way coz that's how it worked in the other engine.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vhector on 2017-08-28, 11:11:23
So if you guys are working together now. Vlado has to bring snaps and cookies to the EUE too?



Off course, being negative has no use anyways. And in this case I have trust in both parties. Persons who have passion and works hard for their product. But indeed let's see what it brings in long therm.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: viscorbel on 2017-08-28, 11:43:27
If there's one company I always admired in this world of CG, it's Chaosgroup. They've always been stand up guys focused on delivering a great product and Vlado has my utmost respect as a developer and human being.
So for me, this is great news!

It's ridiculous to think that suddenly Corona will acquire all the 'problems' from Vray. It's much older, much more widely used and caters to a much larger audience. Of course it's settings have bloated over the years (largely by requests of users) and it's slower to update as it needs to be stable and backwards compatible all the time. Corona is a young engine in a narrow niche and now it has access to resources to grow into something great. I bet there's one or two things that Chaos's guys wish they've done differently over the years and that experience imho is worth a lot.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: BBB3viz on 2017-08-28, 11:46:30
I wouldn't worry about innovation, because there's still plenty of competition around to keep our friends motivated.

Although Octane lacks many features compared with Corona and Vray and the lack of integration in Max makes life difficult, it still renders a lot faster on my setup than Vray-RT and I continue to use it quite a bit. Then there's FStorm, which I never tried but keep hearing good things about, as well as Redshift.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Alexp on 2017-08-28, 12:09:21
(http://i.imgur.com/MVqUgaj.gif)

Relax!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: jmottle on 2017-08-28, 12:53:34

Personnally, I'm worried of one thing : innovation.



Or we could consider that each respective company no longer needs to waste development cycles reacting to each other, and instead can focus on features and technology that moves the entire industry forward.  There are some pretty brilliant people developing both apps.  As this thread seems to be filled with analogies, here is another: Two heads are better than one. :)

For whatever it's worth, in speaking to both Vlado and Adam, both on and off the record, there is nothing I heard that suggests that their path forward is anything but well intended and exactly as they are telling everyone. But people need to read and listen to what they are saying and stop reacting only to a headline and making assumptions/speculations.  Both companies have stellar reputations in the industry, and are some of the most straightforward and transparent people I've known in this industry. Why everyone assumes they have all of a sudden moved to the dark side eludes me.

I think we're in for some exciting times ahead.

Jeff Mottle
CGarchitect
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: LuckyFox on 2017-08-28, 12:57:48
great news!
Hey Austris! We miss you too.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: melviso on 2017-08-28, 14:31:05
I was discussing this with a friend yesterday and quite frankly. This is needed cause I think offline renderers are going to have to contend with game engines in the near future. say the next 2 or 3 years. Realtime graphics is almost there in terms of photorealism. It's just a matter of time.
I have found myself experimenting more and more with ue4. By the time we have the next generation game engines, offline renderers might be facing very stiff competition. Game engines are already finding use in Vfx and movies currently. I remember reading somewhere of Star Wars movie using ue4 in their production process. VR is already gathering momentum in the archviz field. So maybe teaming together might be something the devs are considering as game engines become the norm for rendering in movies/archviz.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: burnin on 2017-08-28, 14:41:19
Seems healthy news for nowadays. It's how small companies can survive the over bloated dinosaurs eating, biting & shitting all over.

If you guys & girls are really afraid, be scared because you're dependent on AD's 3DS Max :p ... your generation will never more do a switch to any other app like Houdini, Blender, Modo, C4D, LW... and force the creation, or even better, making of seamless integration on other platforms for future generations of indies, artists, studios & hobbyists. Because this 'visual works' don't stop at mere CG. CG is just a tool, a hand that holds the brush.

Thus I especially hope for Houdini & Blender to get VRay & Corona in a package... Blender is close, yet still far...

Although, what could really change the map & be one of most amazing things is, if also SideFX (Houdini) & then some more companies like Pixar, Pilgway, Pixologic, Blackmagic... start joining, slowly evolving into 'CG creative union' :D... creating a worthy conglomerate to balance out the industry monopoly from AD and alike.


Anyways, the idea is great, just keep moving forward!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: A515 on 2017-08-28, 15:38:04
Vlado, it’s nice that you decided to write despite the cold welcoming from almost everyone here but that should be understood concerning how Vray looks nowadays, what it offers and at what kind of point it is when it comes to archviz.

If that takeover was concerning e.g. Unreal Engine it wouldn’t be such an important and big event as it is in case of Corona. Undoubtedly it is a special moment in I would say last 10 years when the monopolist has been bitten in the leg and is now limping. Look at the fact how many people come away from Vray looking for simplicity and possibility of choice that goes along with the really good and low price which of course is not the main factor of Corona’s success but one of the elements of it’s thriving.


I know Vray since version 1.09.03 and before Vray I have tried with Splutterfish Brazil which at that time looked more advanced and I was just beginning… so I’ve decided that I want to learn fresh engine while it’s developed and still in an early phase because it’s easier to be up to date that way than going through hundreds of forum pages and chasing the tail. What’s more, the archviz business was just starting out, tutorials were poor and low quality, there were no youtube channels and whatsoever. Generally speaking, there was a great hunger for knowledge, no money, hardware capabilities simply funny (comparing to what we have now) and nothing there to learn from so there couldn’t have been better conditions. The teams were just forming to be able to run for dreams together instead of chasing others…


People on the market has created archviz business themselves but it’s the Vray that has created foundations and made it even possible … until some time. Like it or not but these are the facts and none of us should forget about that. I’m lucky because I remember the very beginnings and I could quietly participate in that process but there are people who know Vray from version 1.5 Rc3 or higher and so on … For them, it was like trying to understand university mathematics without the primary stuff … you can do it but it demands lots of stubbornness and the current generation is rather lazy and they want the results … immediately.


It’s archviz people that have created the very first small film studios. And as the time went by archviz in Vray’s development started to be substituted by vfx which simply means big money.


I think you’ve forgotten thanks to whom you’ve expanded. Progress is needed and it demands lot’s of money but one should always remember where the beginnings were and thank’s to whom (in my opinion) you came into being.


Back in the days, I couldn’t have imagined working on different software than Vray. To me, it’s still the home of CG business besides the 3Ds 3.0 under DOS system of course. Despite bugs appearing here and there, mess, not even mentioning about complexity and the price I couldn’t have imagined working with something else.


I was always standing for Vray and in its defence and telling people, that if they want to do something in this business and learn things they should learn Vray. I don’t know if there can be a better ad than a fanaticism :) …


I have perceived Corona as one of the new fashions in CG and simply the „next wise guy” that is trying to tilt at windmills. As you know yourself very well Vlado there were lots of such people then and attempts and it seemed like everyone is trying to write his own new engine (refer to evermotion). Today it’s just a funny thing to talk about with proper people by the glass of beer … ;)


Back to Vray … it didn’t come to my mind even once to look around for a new soft despite the price was constantly going up, vfx was developed more and more and archviz features were marginalized with some minor fancy adjustments which at the end didn’t help with work at all … drama. I’m curious how much will cost Vray 4.0 together with Corona’s hybrid … or maybe we won’t be able to have Corona without the Vray’s license … amazing. The question is what will you do if people will be so fed up that they don’t want to even hear about you anymore … will you force them somehow to use Vray or give the choice?


Let’s move on …


Recently we’ve seen kind of a revelation — Grant Warwick. There was finally a fresh breeze in the air and he changed the approach to Vray by 180 degrees. Finally, someone has explained in a simple manner, neatly and clearly how the sampler works and where have you been at that time? I bought the course despite I could say I know Vray but I bought it because Vray used to surprise me always and rarely it was a positive experience.


The only one worth the attention ever created was this GW course in my opinion. The others I’ve seen were embarrassing and I always wondered how come that people pay money for them … but this was the magic of Vray itself I guess and it was usually supported by you (logos, official partnerships) or at least it was made to look that way despite the knowledge there was close to zero and very superficial. Drama and my great compassion for those who had to go through it all, paying for the course just to realize they're in the ass and the rabbit’s den is really huge … But the magic of Vray still lasted and I was always defending it like a faithful dog when someone was trying to discredit it. The master was only one and it was Vray … sadly.


And all of a sudden Corona appeared. I started from v6 just to prove to myself and to others that it’s just another temporary fashion and that the engine is not a miraculous tool for generating images. As the time went by a couple of interesting works showing engine capabilities appeared (not talking about simply nice images). The engine’s job is to. Render and the image is created by the artist. By the way lack of understanding, it is probably the reason why young guys are switching from one render engine to another so often hoping that the software will do the job for them.


I thought to myself that Corona’s forum is relatively young and there are not so many threads and pages to go through (maybe 500 important there were at that time) so I started reading first — it was just like with Vray back in the days. The energy that you could feel in what the people were writing was simply amazing. I could feel the hope that it is possible to work faster and in a much more simple way. Plus the engagement of the creators and their great interest in feedback given to them by the community … (I don’t write much, I’m rather reading and formerly I used to read your posts passionately, Vlado).


After getting through lots of posts and threads plus observing other people (Juraj, Maru, Ondra, Dubcat thanks for all the knowledge) I came to the conclusion that I will install Corona and just try it. It was just like a one way ticket. You start using it and just cannot stop. First biggest suprise for me was the amount of tabs in rendering section … I called my friend to ask where should I look for the settings and he simply told me that there are no more … I almost had tears in my eyes :) The impossible became possible. The wall that I have built around myself and Vray and was defending so many years was destroyed in seconds. Of course the knowledge remained and I’m thankful for that.

Updates and new Corona versions popped up suprisingly often. The community was great and created by people who are able and want to share their knowledge. The voice of users was heard and features were almost immidiately implemented in the next beta versions of the engine. All of this showed and proved that it can be fresh in this business, work can be simpler and in many ways much better than Vray. So don’t be suprised that today so many people is pissed off that Vray is taking over Corona because they associate your company with complicated, hard to use and expensive engine that from some time haven’t done ANYTHING important for archviz business. Your policy is also unpredictible. Have you seen any valuable tuts for Vray in last 3-4 months? No and it’s because people left the engine in favour of Corona. There is no point in using complicated soft and wasting time while you can do things immidiately in Corona (just my opinion).

Now the latest Vray 3.6 version … almost copy and paste features from Corona (despite I perceive a lightmixer as a redundant tool in a current form and RAM expensive in Corona). The power increase in rendering is of course noticable in Vray but it’s questionalble that a new person will be able to use that power at all. At leats I don’t think so …

This is why it’s so hard to agree with that fusion to so many including me. Anger and anger on more time and hardly anyone is willing to be optimistic. The proces will probably go up until 2018 and everyone is probably scared and feel abandoned by  the Corona team. People feel disappointed because they have put a lot of time and effort in it … someone has to do extensive testing and so on right?

Someone has mentioned that there will be more programmers in a Corona team? Twelve? So how come you say the prices of Corona won’t go up? You don’t need to be economist to see it doesn’t add up. But let’s leave it for now as it might be 50 euro (or 49,99 whatever).

I’m more concerned about the fact that you will start implementing your way of thinking in Corona development - overcoplicated way of thinking that is deaf on the regular and sometimes beginning users. And in worst case it will end just like this. 


What is the pesimistic version? In 2 years Corona will be gone (or will not exist and be developed the way it is developed today). I don’t mention the price policy. It might be hot topic but most of the people here are serious professionals that are aware of the fact that good product must cost.

The only positive is that maybe you will learn something from Corona and won’t let any more the other competitors to grow so big. Nokia company wasn’t that lucky like you are today … :) You are taking over Corona. Brand that has great public, fantastic success story and is still progressing.

I beg you please don’t fuck this up…

By the way if so big studios like Platige Image get rid of Vray in favour of Arnold and others do follow like Juice you should start thinking. It’s not just the case of the operating systems.

Thanks Vlado once more that despite so many tough comments (including mines) you’re here and read and reply. You’re active like back when the Vray was 1.09.3 42 45 and so on.

Regards,

Ex Vray’s faithful dog fawning over FS …
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-28, 15:55:40
What is the pesimistic version? In 2 years Corona will be gone

No, it won't be gone. It'll just get jammed into V-ray (which will get another 7 tabs with 84 roll-outs) and be sold as part of it - "(un)biased mode".
All with appropriate "teams have decided that this is the best move, all that you love is now under one roof, better then ever, working together to bring the best rendering engine to you, the artist" sales pitch.

Mark my words! :laughs ominously:
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: zuliban on 2017-08-28, 19:02:13
Hopefully now i can have buckets back in corona ;)

Since all the negative part have been discussed already, i read from Vlado that vray is old and corona is of course newer, does creating right now a newer engine means any new technology?  that is not path tracing ? maybe something new that can handle caustics in a better way?

i have seen other renders like Arion that have its inhouse brdf and have DOf that still others renders don't have, with obstruction and CA from far and front and small iris overlay for stuff like eyelashes i would like these kinds of stuff in the future for both renders !.

it would be nice too to have real camera tone mapping response operators and not only using luts to mimic it.

Also i imagine in like 2 years both renders will appear the same since both will be sharing stuff ... so the question why stay as 2 when you can create a new render instead of 2 that practically will be the same?

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: olotl on 2017-08-28, 19:04:56
I own a private licence to support corona and I also use it at work. If the price stays the same and the software development continues with this impressive speed, there is really no reason for me to switch. I guess most users forget that chaosgroup is not autodesk.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: JGallagher on 2017-08-28, 19:12:35
Congratulations Corona team! Finger's crossed that everything goes as smoothly as planned.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: h4018401 on 2017-08-28, 19:14:25
Ondra, use all the extra resources you can get from ChaosGroup to make Corona better.
Vlado, don't transform Corona to Vray, no one wants to see ''advanced'' and ''expert'' tabs anymore.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: spadestick on 2017-08-28, 19:22:24
Quote
If the Chaos Group guys say to you in a year, we want to mothball Corona, what's your recourse? Is their say final?

This depends how tight Legion's agreement with Chaos Group is.

"Chaos" - How very apt. Settings are a mess.

Would be nice to know more details - like does Vray Devt have full access to Corona's secret path-tracing algorithms?

Because if they do - we're prepared to see a souped up Vray using pure or tweaked Corona algos which will make Vray totally outshine everything else on the market. Won't be long before the Autodesk bought Arnold devt team starts eyeing the Corona algo embedded within the beefed up Vray, to the tune of whatever Chaos asks $$$$$$$$ for in return. Next thing you know, Autodesk starts suing the entire original team at Corona for stealing their code. You have to love the lawyers... beautiful creatures.


Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2017-08-28, 21:25:28
https://labs.chaosgroup.com/index.php/rendering-rd/cg-garage-podcast-137-ondrej-and-vlado-corona-and-v-ray/

Here's some more behind the scenes info, which I hope should probably clear some more doubts ;)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: rambambulli on 2017-08-28, 21:34:23
I don't know I happy or said. I never hated Vray. I was too stupid to use it. For wannabees like me, Corona is perfect.
For the first time we also (or at least we thought) could make renders like Peter, Bertrand and Juraj.

We also could render. And now we are afraid we go back to being noobs again.

The Corona team never lets us down. Vlado creates beautiful software. So what can go wrong?

That they team up and make a better modeling software as Max (and please let us dump Autodesk asap)? Or they start making light baker plugins for Unreal and Unity. Or ...?

Come on guys, give this team chance!!
Congratulations Corona and Vlado. Good luck in the future...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-08-28, 22:25:54
i dont see the power of corona just in having simpler settings.
for me it is also seems to be developed very professionally.
this is sadly not the case with a lot! of renderers out there, and then you're walking on crutches all the time!
if you have complicated projects and workflows you depend on good and well integrated concepts.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Benny on 2017-08-29, 04:20:18
Google says "At its root, Cars 3 is a story about getting old and figuring out how to accept that you can’t stay on top forever."

That is definitely one side of it, but even more importantly it is about realization and mentoring/nurturing of the next generation into greatness.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: qbic-ft on 2017-08-29, 04:55:27
I'm a Vray user and I tried Corona sometime ago. To me is pretty obvious that Chaos Group wants to have two great tools with two different targets:
 Corona the best architectural visualization engine and Vray the best VFX engine and of course with some common features but at the same time different enough to make sense to develop two engines...So, I'm not going to produce movies, commercials, etc so to me, Corona will be my engine of choice in the near future
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Hamburger on 2017-08-29, 06:23:59
A lot of people really need to grow up. It's software, it's business not a sport team to follow!

ChaosGroup are good, Corona will be in good hands.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sinjongthae on 2017-08-29, 07:10:03
Ondra, use all the extra resources you can get from ChaosGroup to make Corona better.
Vlado, don't transform Corona to Vray, no one wants to see ''advanced'' and ''expert'' tabs anymore.


Yeah, totally agreed.
Honestly, I don't wanna spend whole season to read Corona Complete Manual like wut I did years ago with V-ray Complete Manual just to fully understand how it works.
 -_- Hope I won't need to learn coding and program my own Renderer in the near future, lol.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: zmeski on 2017-08-29, 08:14:16
Ondra, use all the extra resources you can get from ChaosGroup to make Corona better.
Vlado, don't transform Corona to Vray, no one wants to see ''advanced'' and ''expert'' tabs anymore.


Yeah, totally agreed.
Honestly, I don't wanna spend whole season to read Corona Complete Manual like wut I did years ago with V-ray Complete Manual just to fully understand how it works.
 -_- Hope I won't need to learn coding and program my own Renderer in the near future, lol.

back in a days when things like a manual were useful, if i remember properly, the technology both HW and SW was completely different.....thats why you have used vray in the 1st place - because it coudl handle your tasks better and more efficent...the comps were not where they are today and everything was more or less a cheat...so you had to learn how to do that.

lets skip all the hysteria and wait for even brighter future.

Be happy Corona has ended in Chaosgroups hands rather than in the hand of some greedy corporate or venture fund that knows SHIT about rendering and is all about money and doesnt give a fuck about users.

HAving Vray and Corona under one hood is great and will be great, youll get a lot of tech much sooner than when Ondra and the crew woudl have to develope it again and basically the same way...its waste of resource.

And why FOR GODS SAKE woudl Vlado start adding spinners to Corona when all the dev will be in the Ondras hands? This doesnt make sense it would go against the primary decision which is having two best racing cars in the garage....one easier to handle with automatic gear shift and one more complicated with good old manual clutch.  But put a great rider in a seat and both will reach the finish more or less the same.

Its pure perfect forward thinking from both and for once for the greater good of user.

Not every company has to be like Autodesk so why dont you start thinking a bit more optimistic guys??

Stop the bashing, stop the hatred, grow up and lets draw a thick line and look forward to 1.7 final :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sinjongthae on 2017-08-29, 09:03:13
It's better to assume about the worst case, else u got on backdoor to run too.
U got a good point too about working under one roof, but I rarely see it works well in most case. Probably, it only happened in my country. :/ That's y I learn how to think backward :|
Best wish, oh! I hate wishing and I don't. But still, to most people including me is hoping to see huge progress in both development.
As long as both forces r cool, so are we?
Cheer...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ondra on 2017-08-29, 10:55:50
It's better to assume about the worst case, else u got on backdoor to run too.
well the worst case is that a meteor hits you in the face tomorrow, so why even bother doing 3D then? ;)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sinjongthae on 2017-08-29, 11:27:38
well the worst case is that a meteor hits you in the face tomorrow, so why even bother doing 3D then? ;)
Bcuz no one know about the future, there r possibilities. Anything can happen.
Still this doesn't mean I stop doing what I like, but thing r better to b prepared.
But Ondra, can u tell us when will Corona Renderer 1.7 be released? Will it b on schedule? Bcuz in this situation it seems like, lol.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ondra on 2017-08-29, 11:52:41
I updated the roadmap, we will release in time for SOA academy days
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Philip kelly on 2017-08-29, 11:56:38
Listen to CG Garage Podcast , both are there, explaining to move.
All good, I think.

Phil
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: chartensimage on 2017-08-29, 13:40:36
I wrote some nasty post and read it then and decided to change it. You know what? Life is too great to worry about such things as tools. There is abundance in the market and if something goes wrong with Corona we have plenty other choices so let's be excited and give these guys a chance! Positive energy is always better, and so much hatred doesn't make Ondra's team happy and eager to work fluently. Let's be positive and help them giving good feedback and if we are GOOD to them they will respect us users and will make good changes in Corona. Let's simply presume they are professionals and passionate and have a good will. If not it will be their problem, not ours. For now, let's keep it positive people! :D

Have a nice day!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Goran Gajic on 2017-08-29, 14:08:08
Congratulations to Corona team!

I am really happy for you all, your knowledge, dedication and friendly attitude, never met any crew like you are....Went all the way from alpha user to Fair SaaS, changed my workflow and happy since then :-)
I am sure you will bring us more joy, don´t spend all money right now on vacations, give us more sweets :-) ))
Cheers!

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Seth Richardson on 2017-08-29, 15:17:11
All I see in this thread is a LOT of spoiled entitled "creatives".

I am curious how some of you can afford 3ds-max on your non existent income.

So sad to see a community that was given a great product at a great price act like this over something that really is a good move.  Not only for the Corona team, but for you as well.  You guys act like Chaosgroup doesn't care about rendering and that they are just out to make a buck.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: sjmoir on 2017-08-29, 16:28:45
Google says "At its root, Cars 3 is a story about getting old and figuring out how to accept that you can’t stay on top forever."

That is definitely one side of it, but even more importantly it is about realization and mentoring/nurturing of the next generation into greatness.

There's also some interesting rendering technology behind it. But I might be reading too much into it, maybe Vlado just really likes the story :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: AnubisMe on 2017-08-29, 16:48:55
Now if only they could also buy 3ds max from Autodesk :) I look forward to what V-Coronay will look like but at the end of the day I like everything Corona offers me for its price and ease of use. To put it into perspective it took me months to teach some people on my team how to use Vray and when we tried Corona it took them a week to make great renders.

 I am glad at least that chaos group sees just how great corona is, and were able to put in a business offer to try to stay relevant as Corona will start taking over the market.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: spadestick on 2017-08-29, 16:49:24
Google says "At its root, Cars 3 is a story about getting old and figuring out how to accept that you can’t stay on top forever."

That is definitely one side of it, but even more importantly it is about realization and mentoring/nurturing of the next generation into greatness.

There's also some interesting rendering technology behind it. But I might be reading too much into it, maybe Vlado just really likes the story :)

The Cars3 Story is here :
Emeryville, CA – (August 2nd 2017)  Pixar Animation Studios today gave a special preview of upcoming technologies at the 2017 RenderMan Art & Science Fair, including new interactive capabilities for RenderMan 22 and work on “XPU” rendering using CPU+GPU cores together. Demonstrations of RenderMan 21.5 showcased break-through technologies for rendering CGI characters, including state-of-the-art skin and hair developed for Pixar production. Presentations from Pixar and ILM revealed how feature films such as Cars 3, Coco, and Rogue One drive enhancements to RenderMan's core technology.

RenderMan 21.5, released July 26th, contains significant new features like “Path Traced Subsurface Scattering”, the most advanced technique for skin and soft materials available for production VFX. New artistic controls add to RenderMan’s industry-leading hair and fur, providing a wide range of new effects. This latest version delivers raw rendering performance gains on scenes with thousands of light sources, or complex combinations of mesh lights, hair and fur, volumetrics, and arbitrary outputs. The updated Denoiser enables new compositing workflows and is substantially faster due to advanced code optimizations. RenderMan 21.5 delivers UI simplification and workflow improvements for secondary passes, holdouts, material presets, and deep compositing.

“Artists here at MPC were able to use RenderMan to push the boundaries of complexity and realism in films like The Jungle Book,” said Damien Fagnou, CTO at MPC Film. “These new 21.5 features are helping us crash through those boundaries again on the next generation of projects.”

Pixar demonstrated several next-generation technologies at the event including a preview of next year’s RenderMan 22. It features “always-on” rendering embedded in artist applications, responding instantly to geometry, camera, light and material edits. This new live rendering mode delivers incredible interactive frame rates with the same renderer used for batch renders. Other RenderMan 22 technologies like fast vectorized OSL shader network evaluation on Intel scalable-SIMD CPUs were also shown.

Finally, Pixar unveiled RenderMan XPU, a combined CPU + GPU solution now under development. The XPU technology renders on both CPUs and GPUs concurrently, taking full advantage of workstation resources. RenderMan XPU was shown live on a production scene, demonstrating the power and artistic possibilities of this upcoming technology. More information on RenderMan XPU will become available closer to delivery, scheduled after RenderMan 22.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: twoheads on 2017-08-29, 18:14:06
My two cents after a huge jaw drop.

I'll just  save this thread for future generations and we will see in few years who is  right and who is wrong. Some people will say sorry, some will say "I told you", anyway I truly hope this is not the beginning of  the end. 


 PS:  I don't think we should call disappointment hate.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: 3dwannab on 2017-08-29, 18:29:33

https://labs.chaosgroup.com/index.php/rendering-rd/cg-garage-podcast-137-ondrej-and-vlado-corona-and-v-ray/


Here's some more behind the scenes info, which I hope should probably clear some more doubts ;)
Just listening now. It does ease my concerns. I was angry for some reason at the start because I badly wanted Corona to do it on their own and win all sort of awards like VRay do now like the oscars for example which would've eventually happened (no doubt). Because it's just an awesome piece of software.


But this will make everything happen quicker esp in the VFX area. So I don't see the problem anymore as long as Corona stays around forever and ever and ever. :P


Best of luck all.
Viva Corona
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: markfouronefour on 2017-08-30, 00:20:19
From when First used Vray I loved it, a breath of fresh air (over 13 years ago), Corona is now a new breath of fresh air, what Vlado has made for the world of 3D is incredible, what Ondra has created for Architure is a game changer, I personally think they both are amazing for different rolls, why can't they function together? If I made films VRay is so much more complex to deal with that Corona in so much more Architecture driven, have said that it holds its own in an animation world.

These are not money driven people they love what they do and are helping all of us, so let's all calm down and see where we are in the future....... the future is bright!!!!!

God bless VRay and Corona

PS I never rant but 15+ pages has made me give an opinion.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: davemahi on 2017-08-30, 16:13:25
I left Vray for Corona for animation in Film and TV. Everyone at our studio really prefers Corona for our work, even though it is branded an "Architectural" Render. I think that is slowly changing though. Corona for Film and TV!!!!!!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-08-30, 20:24:54
I'm sick of mergers and acquisitions. It does nothing but disrupt innovation.
This sucks. It's really sad news.
Corona team you better not go into your comfort zone! (please)
Edit: Actually I'm shocked and disappointed at Chaos Group for not being able to come up with something on their own.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-30, 21:09:19
No, it won't be gone. It'll just get jammed into V-ray (which will get another 7 tabs with 84 roll-outs) and be sold as part of it - "(un)biased mode". All with appropriate "teams have decided that this is the best move, all that you love is now under one roof, better then ever, working together to bring the best rendering engine to you, the artist" sales pitch.
I don't think this will work; I've seen it fail too many times to even consider it as a possible approach. Some bits and pieces of technology can be shared between different products, but meshing them together in such a way as you describe is a recipe for disaster.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-08-30, 21:37:07
Best regards,
Vlado

If anything, I have to give you credit for being far more patient then I expected :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-30, 21:48:18
And as the time went by archviz in Vray’s development started to be substituted by vfx which simply means big money.
I don't know how you figured out that VFX means big money. The VFX market is really small and the business is difficult, but at the same time there are very high demands for the software and the customers sometimes want crazy things from it. Why do you think Autodesk now owns Arnold?

Quote
I think you’ve forgotten thanks to whom you’ve expanded. Progress is needed and it demands lot’s of money but one should always remember where the beginnings were and thank’s to whom (in my opinion) you came into being.
I remember very well where I've started from, and I'm very grateful to everyone who was and is a part of our journey. [As a side note, I also remember how disappointed I was to see people that have used our software to make a living, and many of which I personally helped through a tough project, then turn around and spit sh*t about it. It's fine and I try not to take it personally.]

Quote
The question is what will you do if people will be so fed up that they don’t want to even hear about you anymore … will you force them somehow to use Vray or give the choice?
I don't plan to force anyone to use V-Ray.

Quote
Recently we’ve seen kind of a revelation — Grant Warwick. There was finally a fresh breeze in the air and he changed the approach to Vray by 180 degrees. Finally, someone has explained in a simple manner, neatly and clearly how the sampler works and where have you been at that time? I bought the course despite I could say I know Vray but I bought it because Vray used to surprise me always and rarely it was a positive experience.
I'm glad you found Grant Warwick's tutorials useful. However many of these more advanced learning resources often served to confuse people and got them worse results than if they had just let the render engine do its job (I've seen it happen many many times in practice). When we introduced the automatic sampling in V-Ray, we didn't change anything in the engine, we just took the control away from the users and let the sampling algorithms (which have been there since the beginning) to do their job. It's a very good lesson for me and luckily the Corona team learned from it and avoided the issue right from the start.

Quote
So don’t be suprised that today so many people is pissed off that Vray is taking over Corona because they associate your company with complicated, hard to use and expensive engine that from some time haven’t done ANYTHING important for archviz business. Your policy is also unpredictible. Have you seen any valuable tuts for Vray in last 3-4 months? No and it’s because people left the engine in favour of Corona. There is no point in using complicated soft and wasting time while you can do things immidiately in Corona (just my opinion).
<shrug> As you said, it's your opinion. It's not the time or place to argue even if I don't agree with it. If you like Corona, that's great. As I'm not involved in its development, there's no reason to fear that we would somehow want to turn it into V-Ray or make it complicated. Why would we want to break something that already works very well?

Quote
Now the latest Vray 3.6 version … almost copy and paste features from Corona (despite I perceive a lightmixer as a redundant tool in a current form and RAM expensive in Corona).
Um, Cryptomatte support? Hybrid rendering? Anyways, again not the time or place to argue.

Quote
The power increase in rendering is of course noticable in Vray but it’s questionalble that a new person will be able to use that power at all. At leats I don’t think so …
Suprisingly they do. But again, not the right place for this discussion. You are welcome to continue on the V-Ray forum :)

Quote
Someone has mentioned that there will be more programmers in a Corona team? Twelve? So how come you say the prices of Corona won’t go up?
Let us worry about that. It's not a problem that you have to solve.

Quote
I’m more concerned about the fact that you will start implementing your way of thinking in Corona development - overcoplicated way of thinking that is deaf on the regular and sometimes beginning users.
There's no need to be concerned. As I mentioned, I will not be involved in Corona's development in any way.

Quote
What is the pesimistic version? In 2 years Corona will be gone (or will not exist and be developed the way it is developed today). I don’t mention the price policy. It might be hot topic but most of the people here are serious professionals that are aware of the fact that good product must cost.
I'm fairly certain that this pessimistic version will not happen.

Quote
By the way if so big studios like Platige Image get rid of Vray in favour of Arnold and others do follow like Juice you should start thinking. It’s not just the case of the operating systems.
I have never claimed that V-Ray is the best renderer of all renderers. There are reasons why Arnold, RenderMan, 3delight, Corona and so on exist. It is just not possible for one single renderer to cover all possible use cases, and do so with maximum efficiency.

Quote
Thanks Vlado once more that despite so many tough comments (including mines) you’re here and read and reply. You’re active like back when the Vray was 1.09.3 42 45 and so on.
I have never been away and tough comments don't frighten me :) Don't worry, I don't plan to meddle on this forum beyond this thread :)

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-08-30, 22:04:49
No, it won't be gone. It'll just get jammed into V-ray (which will get another 7 tabs with 84 roll-outs) and be sold as part of it - "(un)biased mode". All with appropriate "teams have decided that this is the best move, all that you love is now under one roof, better then ever, working together to bring the best rendering engine to you, the artist" sales pitch.
I don't think this will work; I've seen it fail too many times to even consider it as a possible approach. Some bits and pieces of technology can be shared between different products, but meshing them together in such a way as you describe is a recipe for disaster.

Best regards,
Vlado

It'd be interesting to know why ChaosG. didn't basically do a Corona, separate from Vray, to compete.
I know many got tired of asking for something like that years ago in your forum, even before Corona came out. Was it too expensive? Don't get it.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-30, 22:09:17
It'd be interesting to know why ChaosG. didn't basically do a Corona, separate from Vray, to compete. I know many got tired of asking for something like that years ago in your forum, even before Corona came out. Was it too expensive? Don't get it.
We considered it, of course. Ultimately we decided that we didn't want to split our efforts and its best to concentrate on what we already have. Besides, and this is actually the more important reason, my mind is wired in a certain way and I'm not sure that if we started something new, it wouldn't turn out the same way. Corona's team has a fresh perspective on the rendering problems and I can't really match that. Which, again, is why I would much rather work with them than against them.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vkiuru on 2017-08-30, 22:12:03
A lot of people really need to grow up. It's software, it's business not a sport team to follow!

ChaosGroup are good, Corona will be in good hands.

Quoted for truth :) some people go way overboard over this. Look around you, take a deep breath & maybe even take a walk, realise you're in a pretty good place in life if worst-case-scenario patterns over a rendering engine are a thing you stress over. Yes it's your renderer of choice but come on :P

Extremely curious if this would eventually mean an easy, straightforward access & workflow w/ Phoenix FD. I haven't gone through all the chit chat, maybe it's been covered already.

I used Vray daily, first as a hobbyist from 2003 (I think) to 2005 and then professionally every single day from early 2006 to summer of 2013 when Corona sank its hooks in me; haven't used Vray after that but still have my dongle. When the Vray licensing went through changes I heard the term "dongle" the first time I ever btw, and it was pretty funny :P

Ehh.. anyway, love the engine and Chaosgroup customer support - just needed fresh winds so as to not exhaust myself, and a promising new renderer is always a fun ride because the leaps in development are huge and interesting during the first years :)

I hope many great things to come out of this marriage. Congratulations Ondra, Vlado & co! :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vlado on 2017-08-30, 22:15:24
Extremely curious if this would eventually mean an easy, straightforward access & workflow w/ Phoenix FD.
That's the plan, yes.

Best regards,
Vlado
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Ondra on 2017-08-30, 22:26:32
I'm sick of mergers and acquisitions. It does nothing but disrupt innovation.
This sucks. It's really sad news.
Corona team you better not go into your comfort zone! (please)
Edit: Actually I'm shocked and disappointed at Chaos Group for not being able to come up with something on their own.

We actually had to go waaaay out of our comfort zone for this ;)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: vkiuru on 2017-08-30, 23:13:19
I remember very well where I've started from, and I'm very grateful to everyone who was and is a part of our journey. [As a side note, I also remember how disappointed I was to see people that have used our software to make a living, and many of which I personally helped through a tough project, then turn around and spit sh*t about it. It's fine and I try not to take it personally.]

I paid a one time fee for my years with Vray (ok, I paid for Vray RT too, an investment which turned out a bit funny some time after the fact - but in grand scheme of things it wasn't a big deal and it was really cool tech to get to play with so early on). Got free support, updates and upgrades for a long time. What Vray cost me is nothing compared to what I got out of it. A great render engine and I think a lot of people can relate to that position of taking time to help someone only to later find the person/party to prove to be something not quite worth the time you spent with them. I learned my lesson pretty early but still, repeated enough times and there's a chance you turn bitter. I don't envy your position, as you kind of have to be open to offer help to certain extent.

Wish you the best of luck. Hopefully both parties find new energy and perspective from this and come up with some cool innovations!

EDIT: "That's the plan, yes.

Best regards,
Vlado"

Ok well there we go :D Nice!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-08-31, 00:03:15
It'd be interesting to know why ChaosG. didn't basically do a Corona, separate from Vray, to compete. I know many got tired of asking for something like that years ago in your forum, even before Corona came out. Was it too expensive? Don't get it.
Corona's team has a fresh perspective on the rendering problems

Right. I didn't consider the talent factor :).
Well, best of lucks to both teams.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Seth Richardson on 2017-08-31, 06:02:22
It'd be interesting to know why ChaosG. didn't basically do a Corona, separate from Vray, to compete. I know many got tired of asking for something like that years ago in your forum, even before Corona came out. Was it too expensive? Don't get it.
We considered it, of course. Ultimately we decided that we didn't want to split our efforts and its best to concentrate on what we already have. Besides, and this is actually the more important reason, my mind is wired in a certain way and I'm not sure that if we started something new, it wouldn't turn out the same way. Corona's team has a fresh perspective on the rendering problems and I can't really match that. Which, again, is why I would much rather work with them than against them.

Best regards,
Vlado

Im not really  worried about any of this crap in least bit.  I love both vray and corona. 
Vray in MODO is literally plug and play the only deep part you get into is shading.... as with any render engine... even corona.  My question to you is will you collaborate with the corona team and get corona into MODO as well.  You guys did one of the best integrations I have ever used with MODO and Vray... far better than max and maya in my opinion.  So will the knowledge of working with MODO SDK to integrate Corona happen?  That was a previous roadblock here is no one knew how to do it basically nor did they have a dev for it.

I also really like the PBR shaders in Corona.  I am hoping since some of that DMC loving has been sent their way.... they will send some of their shading model goodness vray's way.

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: JViz on 2017-09-01, 04:54:27
it's shocking how people are shocked!! did you really believe you were part of some "family"... this is business. they will try to "maximize" profit every turn of the road.

at this level, business becomes like politics. it's dry efficient and PRAGMATIC.

we JUST got out from under the boot of intel. they had the entire computing world in the stone age for nearly a decade just because they could. just because they can sell a 5% increase in performance each year or so for a new "generation"

go look what AMD has done. they dissolved or at least they are in the process of dissolving Intel's monopoly over the pc processors market. with the help of Jim Keller who is a genius and an innovator.

look at Fstorm. the best looking renderer ever made. stuck in a lawsauit seemingly but - hopefully not - forever.

it's always sad to see innovators and pioneers get sucked into the world of "money" and profit maximization. get rich people but don't make it just about that.

now this deal will be made to look pretty but there is a good chance it's very ugly underneath all of this makeup.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-09-03, 11:58:35
ok we heard it all: the ease of use is important, and the price tag for some.

but i think even more important are good concepts, professional software development and
a superb integration in the host application. a lot of renderers badly fail in this and deliver never
more than an alpha or beta stage, even if they call it release.
with a bad integration you waste your time with workarounds, not to mention the frustration
to work with a sloppy coded tool that doesnt even understand main concepts of the host app.

in this sense i love coronas transparent software development with public road maps!
a public bug reporting website wouldnt be bad, too. even if moderated / just for information
hope you keep that up.. its great!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: romullus on 2017-09-03, 12:20:59
in this sense i love coronas transparent software development with public road maps!
a public bug reporting website wouldnt be bad, too. even if moderated / just for information
hope you keep that up.. its great!

Have you seen this: https://corona-renderer.com/bugs/view_all_bug_page.php ?
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-09-03, 16:36:00
a superb integration in the host application.

Yes! This was a great surprise about corona.
When I was asking how to do certain things (used to Vray, with all due respect) the response was usually to use Max's own stuff.
From not having a separate VFB, to just using the bitmap map to use an HDRI. It felt weird at first, but in the end is better I think.
And not being afraid of using opacity (for some reason it was always slow with Vray)...
Many of those little things aren't just good UI. It's really good integration and common sense.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: indexofrefraction on 2017-09-05, 07:55:37
in this sense i love coronas transparent software development with public road maps!
a public bug reporting website wouldnt be bad, too. even if moderated / just for information
hope you keep that up.. its great!

Have you seen this: https://corona-renderer.com/bugs/view_all_bug_page.php ?

... whee... i didnt know ! thats GREAT!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: 3di on 2017-09-08, 02:47:50
It was sounding like great news until I saw the word acquired :(  If render legion had kept a 51% share, leaving them in full control of their own future/development, then it would have been perfect.   

Fingers crossed the product will get better as a result of the new ownership, and not the opposite.   I think it's safe to say though that if Corona is to remain cheaper than Vray...(and probably even if it doesn't), then it will never be allowed to become a better, faster, easier to use, and a more feature rich renderer than Vray (which it was on its way to accomplishing)....which makes me wonder, if I don't make the switch to Vray, am I always going to be using Chaos's second best renderer.

I hope it all works out well for Ondra and his team, but it seems risky if they're hoping to remain the masters of Corona's destiny.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: hoppergrass on 2017-09-08, 04:03:56
the two have been playing leap frog for a while now, now its become a three-leg race. Lets hope that it doesn't become as awkward to compete
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-09-08, 16:32:15
Whatever you do don't remove the smiley face
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: l.croxton on 2017-09-11, 14:48:27
It was sounding like great news until I saw the word acquired :(  If render legion had kept a 51% share, leaving them in full control of their own future/development, then it would have been perfect.   

Fingers crossed the product will get better as a result of the new ownership, and not the opposite.   I think it's safe to say though that if Corona is to remain cheaper than Vray...(and probably even if it doesn't), then it will never be allowed to become a better, faster, easier to use, and a more feature rich renderer than Vray (which it was on its way to accomplishing)....which makes me wonder, if I don't make the switch to Vray, am I always going to be using Chaos's second best renderer.

I hope it all works out well for Ondra and his team, but it seems risky if they're hoping to remain the masters of Corona's destiny.

I guess try thinking of it like owning two sports teams in a competitive league. You have double the chance of winning and so if Corona does surpass VRAY, they own Corona so they don't loose. If anything they have expanded market share and its in their own interest that Corona does well. It works for Corona I guess in the sense of they will have far greater resources etc. The only thing for concern is that we see price increases...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Tanakov on 2017-09-12, 16:15:25
Whatever you do don't remove the smiley face

+1
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: karklinskarlis1993 on 2017-09-15, 20:58:07
hurry guys- backup your BETA installs, lol

corona was my huge escape from vray for good. and here it comes again. really wish you the best corona devs!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: marqueso on 2017-09-26, 21:34:45
Corona was like fresh air after leaving Chaos Group, i really hope this doesnt take away the developers contact and listening to its customers. If corona starts to suck then i will be on the lookout for the next best. Please dont turn this into an Autodesk type thing where the product stagnates but is released as a totally new version every year.
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: maru on 2017-09-27, 09:54:01
Corona was like fresh air after leaving Chaos Group, i really hope this doesnt take away the developers contact and listening to its customers. If corona starts to suck then i will be on the lookout for the next best. Please dont turn this into an Autodesk type thing where the product stagnates but is released as a totally new version every year.
No worries! These things won't change. It wouldn't make any sense. :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: valwizard on 2017-09-27, 16:04:50
I have to admit that i'm a bit scared... but ok, for now it is a good thing...

Think about Autodesk buying Alias (Maya, StudioTools...) and let it live beside 3dsmax...
And that was the end of absolutely amazing Mudbox!
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: valwizard on 2017-09-27, 17:24:37
I'm sick of mergers and acquisitions. It does nothing but disrupt innovation.
This sucks. It's really sad news.
Corona team you better not go into your comfort zone! (please)
Edit: Actually I'm shocked and disappointed at Chaos Group for not being able to come up with something on their own.

We actually had to go waaaay out of our comfort zone for this ;)
Absolutely no doubts. Just sad that you could not find the alternative solutions for raising *** funds. I think if you would've honestly started a campaign, and have explained to all your users and beloved that Corona further development is under a danger, I have no doubts that you could've to rise any money you need and sink Vray forever. But who am I to judge you? I am disappointed for the years I spent on studying Corona. It is funny that now there is a hell lot of "Corona guru" trying to sell seminars and training on the renderer, which in no time will be dead. Good luck Ondra and thanks for the past years of real fun and adventure. Your product was good, but, let us to be honest was developed ( copied ) from the Vray and the end is predictable. There will be place for someone new to challenge you guys in the future. I believe...?...
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: cecofuli on 2017-09-27, 21:44:01
Comfort zone! Ahahaha ^__^  Are you serious? I would like you should able to watch inside they office now during the release of Corona 1.7 =)

Try to think: nobody knew about this acquisition. Only the CoronaTeam, that's all. And, they started one years ago.
Have you seen what they did in the last year? Corona v1.5, Corona v1.6 and, now, Corona v1.7
Have you seen how many new tools they added from the 1.6 to v1.7?
Look at trello.com road map. Every new release, the list of new tools is 10-20% longer ;-)
There is already the v1.8 road-map...
Honestly, I was very skeptical and shocked the first day I have read this news (like almost 90%of Corona users).
But, now, me feelings are EXACLTY the opposite =)
valwizard, if you want to stop to use Corona, it's your choose.
But, please, come back here in one or two years and, believe me, you will regret your decision.
Corona, Corona team and Corona community are, now, full of energy and hope, more than before!


Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: PatSieb on 2017-09-27, 21:58:57
+1 with cecofuli's post.
I'm a new C4D + Corona user and feel very comfortable with what will happen in the future to both companies.

be positive ;)

Regards
Pat

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: lupaz on 2017-09-28, 00:20:43
Have you seen what they did in the last year? Corona v1.5, Corona v1.6 and, now, Corona v1.7

Actually before they came out with the news I was surprised about how many people were complaining about bugs since 1.6: more noise and slower rendering specifically.
After they released the news I thought the collaboration might've had something to do with it.

It could be just my feeling. Don't know...

Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: PatSieb on 2017-09-28, 00:47:30
hey guys, you have to take a break while waiting for the corona team to progress, take a drink or dance with girls during that time :)
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: valwizard on 2017-09-28, 11:02:23
Comfort zone! Ahahaha ^__^  Are you serious? I woul dlike you should able to watch inside they office now during the release of Corona 1.7 =)

Try to think: nobody knew about this acquisition. Only the CoronaTeam, that's all. And, they started one years ago.
Have you seen what they did in the last year? Corona v1.5, Corona v1.6 and, now, Corona v1.7
Have you seen how many new tools they added from the 1.6 to v1.7?
Look at trello.com road map. Every new release, the list of new tools is 10-20% longer ;-)
There is already the v1.8 road-map...
Honestly, I was very skeptical and shocked the first day I have read this news (like almost 90%of Corona users).
But, now, me feelings are EXACLTY the opposite =)
valwizard, if you want to stop to use Corona, it's your choose.
But, please, come back here in one or two years and, believe me, you will regret your decision.
Corona, Corona team and Corona community are, now, full of energy and hope, more than before!
Good advise, thank you. Why not? Seams that this is an era of hybrids, definitely worth to try))
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: blank... on 2017-09-28, 11:08:44
I am disappointed for the years I spent on studying Corona.

You spent years learning Corona?! Really? Years to learn the most intuitive render engine out there? Years?

Are you sure you're not mixing Corona with Mental or V-ray :D
Title: Re: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group
Post by: Christa Noel on 2017-09-29, 03:33:23
Corona, Corona team and Corona community are, now, full of energy and hope, more than before!
yes we are, AMEN! :)