Author Topic: Daily Builds 1.0 - 1.4  (Read 170435 times)

2016-04-14, 18:20:37
Reply #1230

cecofuli

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 1580
    • View Profile
    • www.francescolegrenzi.com
I like the very much CLEAN paintbrush V-Ray solution. No visible rectangle, soft falloff, fast interactivity,  no complex UI. Useful for testing, but also for final retouches.
Maybe they can add an option to adjust the brush size. But, this is a "plus".
I like also the Corona rectangle idea.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-14, 19:02:45 by cecofuli »

2016-04-14, 18:58:18
Reply #1231

romullus

  • Global Moderator
  • Active Users
  • ****
  • Posts: 7787
  • Let's move this topic, shall we?
    • View Profile
    • My Models
Rawalanche, sorry, but i still don't get it how follow cursor is any better than having multiple regions with soft edge.
As for mask painting, i agree that probably nobody wants complex UI for that, space of 1 square cm on VFB is more pricey than 1 square meter of land in Tokyo :] Maybe like an option could be such behaviour: if you simply drag mouse, it would act as in Vray, but if you press LMB and drag, it will paint a mark on samples mask (RMB would erase it). Mask itself could be visible through render elements dropdown. Although that probably too complicated too.

Anyway, i'm perfectly happy with current region implementation and got carried into this conversation only out of sporting interest :]
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
My Models | My Videos | My Pictures

2016-04-14, 19:12:59
Reply #1232

Juraj

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 4373
    • View Profile
    • studio website
Well with that video you basically proved him to be correct, that's nonsense workflow. What he is gonna do, leave it at each spot for few minutes, go for coffee, return, move cursor to other spot and repeat ?

i imagined something like live mask painting directly in VFB

Painting an actual mask solves that. You would paint your cursor at each of those spots and then leave and let it render. It would sample all those positions, not just actual one where the cursor is. He can't use region for it since that would require multiple lasso regions with falloff.

I made a promise to myself to never react to anything you post, and I've successfully lasted for about a year now, but now I will have to break it. Hopefully, I will be able to keep it up for another year afterwards.

A, the entire image is not nearly converged, it has not even one pass finished. What would be point of using region or brush to selectively converge the image if you would end up covering the entire frame? Practical scenario would be that most of the image is perfectly clean, and some of the highlights are 80% converged, but still a bit noisy around edges, that would not take nearly as much time to clean up as raw render that just started.

B, Okay, let's say we would have ability to paint those areas. Just the sole idea of painting something, and adjusting it during renders require at the bare minimum this amount of new UI elements:
1, Enable brush button
2, Brush size
3, Eraser to remove accidentally painted area
4, Something to toggle view of painted mask
5, Something to erase all the painted stuff with one click

So yeah, let's throw another 5 buttons inside of VFB, entire painting set.

C, While I mentioned use for selective convergence, that's not the primary use of this. Primary use of this is a boost of feedback, You need to see how, say, a lamp looks in your interior, so you quickly hover over it to clean noise there first. It's faster and less clumsy than dragging region around.

Adaptivity should be responsible for noise being even across entire image, so if there are noise hotspots, you should want adaptivity improvements, not complex toolset to "work around" the problem. If Corona did not have any MSI, and most of the renders would contain at the very least few random super bright fireflies on your image, would you be requesting something like MSI, or a complete retouching brush toolself for CoronaVFB? Think about animation. Will you be sitting there waiting for each frame to pop up so you can paint a mask?

Did you forget to take your Lexaurin/Bromazepam today ?

Otherwise, thanks for this over-analyzation. There were quite plethora of suggestions in past few pages, not a single of them mine. I advocated against your reasoning, that ray-brush following cursor is any useful in clearing noise in production, since you will have multiple of them, and the clearing will take a lot of time if it's heavy, high-res scene.

Your argumentation of animation is invalid, because cursor following doesn't work in such case either, so why is this case-point against brush stroke ?

I didn't advocated it as ultimate solution, if falloff-region would be better solution so be it. I won't be using any of these features since I hope that's what adaptivity will someday succesfuly do it.

Talk to you in 2017 then :- )
talcikdemovicova.com  Website and blog
be.net/jurajtalcik   Our studio Behance portfolio
Instagram   Our studio Instagram, managed by Veronika

2016-04-14, 19:30:52
Reply #1233

Ludvik Koutny

  • VIP
  • Active Users
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Just another user
    • View Profile
    • My Portfolio
Did you forget to take your Lexaurin/Bromazepam today ?

This is kind of behavior is exactly why.

Rawalanche, sorry, but i still don't get it how follow cursor is any better than having multiple regions with soft edge.
As for mask painting, i agree that probably nobody wants complex UI for that, space of 1 square cm on VFB is more pricey than 1 square meter of land in Tokyo :] Maybe like an option could be such behaviour: if you simply drag mouse, it would act as in Vray, but if you press LMB and drag, it will paint a mark on samples mask (RMB would erase it). Mask itself could be visible through render elements dropdown. Although that probably too complicated too.

Anyway, i'm perfectly happy with current region implementation and got carried into this conversation only out of sporting interest :]

I understand what you mean. The reason why I go so much against any complex solutions is that they concern mostly present problems, and future is not taken into consideration. We currently focus too much on creating a toolset to inhibit a certain problem, instead of looking into future to remove that problem completely.

What would be even better than being able to perfectly paint areas that should converge more? The answer is not having to care about convergence at all. Take look at ChaosGroup for example, they are one step ahead as they are experimenting with adaptive MSR, which translated to corona Terminology is adaptive GI/AA balance. This has two consequcences:

A, GI/AA balance can be removed from UI completely, and burden of having to set it up with it

B, It's the other piece of puzzle that when completed, will likely result in a solution that will converge entire image evenly.

So now imagine a programmer sitting in Corona office and decision if he should spend 3-4 days implementing some sort of painting into VFB, so you have option to do sort of manual adaptivity, or spend time on improving actual adaptivity, and for example trying to make GI/AA adaptive as well, so you do not need to care about it all, and region rendering tools will remain just an aid for faster feedback?

And once we have that establish, then we can even innovate, since region rendering is quite old concept. Take a modo for example, where you can click directly on rendered image in VFB to select mesh, and force that mesh to have rendering priority.

That's my entire point. If we now create an awesome but complex toolset to manually deal with uneven convergence, once improvement that will make convergence even is made, then all this complex toolset with multiple UI buttons will become quite obsolete, but it will be hard to remove it because there will be some 5 guys somewhere in important studios still using it to resolve some "spacebar overheating" kind of issue ;)
« Last Edit: 2016-04-14, 19:34:30 by Rawalanche »

2016-04-14, 21:25:12
Reply #1234

blank...

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Why complicate things, just a check box, feathered region on/off. That's it. Program Corona to take, I don't know, 5 or 10% of current resolution in account for feathering outside of region and that's it.
Doesn't work ideally in every imaginable scenario? Tough luck, there are always other solutions.

2016-04-14, 21:44:55
Reply #1235

antanas

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 272
  • Hmm ...
    • View Profile
I totally agree with Rawalanche - raybrush is the best solution - even iray got one (a few years back, if memory serves me right) and now vray too, and that's just because it is one of the best and easiest to use region render alternatives out there, nothing is as simple and logical as that for previews, material tests, etc. especially on some hi res heavy scenes where interactive render is just not an option, hell, even final renders can greatly benefit from that on some occasions - think of blur or sharpness by brush in photoshop or noise reduction filter brush in some of it's plugins as an ease of use example ))
To make it even better it could use some sort of importance\activeness timer or something like that to loose that performance focus\boost after some preset amount of time, samples per pixel or pass count (not sure exactly which would be better for that task), well to make those painted zones to render with the same importance as the rest of the image after that time\threshold is reached - that, I think, would greatly help to blend those zones with the rest of the final rendered image. 

2016-04-14, 22:14:38
Reply #1236

alexyork

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 660
  • Partner at Recent Spaces
    • View Profile
    • RECENT SPACES
Me after I was about to contribute to the discussion on region tracking then I read the last couple of pages:



Ondra, as always, we trust you guys to find the right balance between functionality and UI simplicity. Hard task, but you've nailed it so far.
Alex York
Partner
RECENT SPACES
recentspaces.com

2016-04-14, 22:33:55
Reply #1237

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 9085
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
Ondra, as always, we trust you guys to find the right balance between functionality and UI simplicity. Hard task, but you've nailed it so far.
Do you remember what I told you about the UI design in our office? Now you know what we have to deal with ;)

anyways, there is a new daily build, with RENDER HISTORY AND COMPARISON!
Rendering is magic.How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2016-04-14, 22:40:28
Reply #1238

alexyork

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 660
  • Partner at Recent Spaces
    • View Profile
    • RECENT SPACES
Ondra, as always, we trust you guys to find the right balance between functionality and UI simplicity. Hard task, but you've nailed it so far.
Do you remember what I told you about the UI design in our office? Now you know what we have to deal with ;)

anyways, there is a new daily build, with RENDER HISTORY AND COMPARISON!

Haha yes I do....

To Dropbox I go!
Alex York
Partner
RECENT SPACES
recentspaces.com

2016-04-14, 22:53:16
Reply #1239

denisgo22

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 698
    • View Profile
I am very sorry, but I do not understand why such a heated discussion broke out in about region render at all///
I am 7 years user of Vray, and last 2 year user of Corona, and very rarely used this option as in Vray, and also now in Corona Render,
because in low test resolution it is still completely useless,due to the fact that it is impossible to discern small details in the materials or model...
It would be more useful to do BlowUp option for interactive region render for zooming needed image region's for checking details and materials///
and to add or correct already finished image is enough standard 3dmax region's///
In addition I want to note that in the last
versions have much more important issues and bugs that need
in solution for fastest rendering /DR/Adaptivity/DeNoise and etc///

2016-04-14, 23:05:26
Reply #1240

3dwannab

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Folder empty.. I actually downloaded an empty folder hoping it was there ;)

With the 'masking discussion'. Can it not be like the basic PS brushes set (Square and circle should do).
  • Toggle Draw/show mask in VFB.
  • Right click Draw/Show mask and select brush setup.
  • Draw your mask (which will be highlighted red like PS with your choice of hardness and size)
  • Toggle Draw/show mask off again
  • Let it complete

2016-04-14, 23:22:21
Reply #1241

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
Ondra, as always, we trust you guys to find the right balance between functionality and UI simplicity. Hard task, but you've nailed it so far.
Do you remember what I told you about the UI design in our office? Now you know what we have to deal with ;)

anyways, there is a new daily build, with RENDER HISTORY AND COMPARISON!

Mmmm render comparison hmmm nomnom


2016-04-14, 23:22:52
Reply #1242

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 9085
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
it is still uploading - it is an installer, and those things are getting huge
Rendering is magic.How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2016-04-14, 23:32:59
Reply #1243

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 9085
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
now it is up
Rendering is magic.How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2016-04-14, 23:41:20
Reply #1244

3dwannab

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Love it already. Will enabling of Denoise and History be a checkbox in the VFB in the final version.