Author Topic: Need advice from experienced people how to make render better  (Read 1910 times)

2020-01-25, 02:09:57

Andrejee

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Hi. I'll try to be more specific as I can cause I think that's the best way for you to help me.

This is a part of the project, just 1/5 of it. Archviz personal. Although I don't know what Archviz rules are.

Ok, aside from materials design - what is missing here (I mean on shadows, refractions (lighting) and all that stuff that are under object properties or render settings.
It rendered for 6 hours and with more than 500 passes.

From my eye these things are not good:
1) I need to change carpet material and all other materials to be more in tune.
2) That light on top of the window object is concerning me?
3) The curtain is set to be translucent to white color, but I don't know why is this happening. If you search my previous topics - you'll see I have a lot of trouble with the curtain.
4) The geometry of the open shelf could be improved. And I will.
5)  The board for planning next to the window is looking very rough. I haven't applied bump cause I don't have a bump image to apply onto it, but I can assure you that in reality, those are the real dimensions of the wood pieces on the board. I could maybe just make the frame looking more original or something more?
6) The camera. Oh, the camera... I wanted this to be vertical, not horizontal. If you know what I mean I wanted the picture to have more height than being wide, but I do not know how to do it. Or you think this is ok position of the camera?)
E.g. I wanted narrower position: something like this: https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?topic=26694.0
7) If you zoom the are below the desk table, you 'll see some white color on the edges. That is not supposed to be normal?
8) What do you think of the light coming of the "sliding doors" on the right side next to the sofa? I have a window in that part of the object (that is an opening to the bathroom, but it's not closed completely, cause - sliding doors) and is that light good or bad?
9) I have an interior light, but as you can see I haven't plugged it on. Actually, the room is very small, tiny apartment and that light is in the middle of the scene (not showed here), so should I insert light in this part of the project, too?
10) Generally speaking, Archviz projects are very clear and with lots of lighting, do they use some extra light tricks and tips that I am not aware of?
11)I have a portal, plane background, targeted sun, the sun is set to 1 and 1 intensity and size. I had problems with the curtain applying it's material onto the wall like a shadow. So when I put the blue curtain, I have blue shadows on the wall. And that's a big problem. Cause... I'll try to explain. The top ceiling is set to be white, but as you can see in the picture, it is not white definitely. Is that due to a lack of light inside or not? 
12) I ve set to many objects not to cast shadows or receive shadows because I have a feeling (connected with the problem 11) that many materials absorb the color of the other materials - and that's something that is of the main concern for me, among other problems.
*I had to delete ENU because of some problems, so I can't remember the rendering tools, but the highlight compression was set to be 9. Saturation maybe 0 or 0.1, Exposure probably 1 or 2. Contrast probably 0 or 1. I think I used denoising.


Finally, I hope I provide you with all the info so you can answer me. Again, be free to say whatever is not looking good and that could be improved, just have in mind that I'm doing a tiny apartment on the 15.5 square meters and 2,6m height, and it's really hard to design that all with my minimum performance computer for both 3Ds Max and Corona.  But, be free.
Thanks in advance.

2020-01-25, 11:08:10
Reply #1

romullus

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If you can share the scene, then i think it would be better to upload it to the forum, so that someone could take it and fix everything. Frankly there's too many mistakes to write everything down.
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2020-01-25, 11:52:06
Reply #2

Andrejee

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Hi. I've uploaded it on easyupload.io (but I can to my dropbox on hotmail or gmail drive, or where you want to). Here's the link:
https://easyupload.io/mp7fe6
I haven't used Xrefs and proxies (I'm new very much), but if you can help this is that scene. I assume that you would probably render it with default materials or clay - that's completely ok, but I would really like to learn about the material issues I've described - that absorbing, translucency.
I don't want to bother or take your free time, cause I want to be able to do that stuff by myself.
But... I would learn it the way you described - when I compare what's different in the settings/position of the camera, etc... Just if you offered help as I understand, please give me a screenshot of the render settings. :)

I write too much, cause I've thought it would be easier for people to understand. Maybe I'm dumb and the camera would be vertical If I would just rotate it 90 degrees.
Ignore the not looking nice geometry please (e.g. that open shelve) and the materials of the carpet (I've set corona hair material to it basically, but I have some imported materials for the carpets), modeling Archviz geometry turned out to be the easiest part so far. And idiot me, I've started with interior cause it's a personal project to learn and to build - cause interior design had to be that way because of the architecture of the object.
Thank you very much for the kind heart and offer to fix everything.
Sorry for being a newbie, but somewhere I gotta start.
Thanks again in advance for your help and kindness.

2020-01-25, 16:09:00
Reply #3

romullus

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Unfortunatelly i can't open your scene - i'm on the max 2016. Hopefully someone else will take a look at it and will give you some feedback. Meanwhile, i can give you few tips for starters.
  • Make sure that the walls has thickness. That will prevent light leakage near the windows and in the corners #2, #7
  • You can set render output aspect ratio in render setup>common tab #6
  • Unless you know what you're doing, try to avoid turning off cast/receive shadows and doing other non-physical hacks. This can lead to great loss of realism #12
  • Avoid to use full strength and full white translucency in your materials. This can lead to unpredictable and unrealistic results #3
  • Use exposure to brighten your image and white balance to bring tones closer to neutral #10, #11
  • Don't be affraid to experiment with tonemapping controls in VFB to give your render more interesting look. Try some of the LUTs that are shipped with Corona #10
  • Add refflectivity to your materials and break uniform glossiness with some grungy maps, but try not to overdo it too much
  • Search for fitting materials in Corona material library - they could be good starting point for your scene.
  • Have some reference images and try to study them in terms of composition, lighting, materials.
That should do for now.
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2020-01-25, 22:18:52
Reply #4

JoeVallard

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First thing you should do is clean up your scene. For whatever reason Max 2020 does not like something in your scene as it was crashing often for me. Couldn't go more than 2 mins on a render before it would crash. There are alot of random objects/helpers just floating everywhere that don't seem to server a purpose.

The walls particular need to be fix and they have vertices just floating around causing bad faces and your door isnt making contact with the opening which will make light leak into the scene.

Almost all your furniture is floating off the floor, be sure they make contact with the ground.

As Romullus said don't turn cast/receive shadows and etc off. Turning the geometry back to the default settings made a large difference in the weird lighting issues going on and also speed up the rendering considerably.

After you clean up you geometry I would suggest using the material override with a basic Corona Mtl and get the lighting you want down before moving onto the materials.



2020-01-26, 05:43:29
Reply #5

Andrejee

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Unfortunatelly i can't open your scene - i'm on the max 2016. Hopefully someone else will take a look at it and will give you some feedback. Meanwhile, i can give you few tips for starters.
  • Make sure that the walls has thickness. That will prevent light leakage near the windows and in the corners #2, #7
  • You can set render output aspect ratio in render setup>common tab #6
  • Unless you know what you're doing, try to avoid turning off cast/receive shadows and doing other non-physical hacks. This can lead to great loss of realism #12
  • Avoid to use full strength and full white translucency in your materials. This can lead to unpredictable and unrealistic results #3
  • Use exposure to brighten your image and white balance to bring tones closer to neutral #10, #11
  • Don't be affraid to experiment with tonemapping controls in VFB to give your render more interesting look. Try some of the LUTs that are shipped with Corona #10
  • Add refflectivity to your materials and break uniform glossiness with some grungy maps, but try not to overdo it too much
  • Search for fitting materials in Corona material library - they could be good starting point for your scene.
  • Have some reference images and try to study them in terms of composition, lighting, materials.
That should do for now.
Thanks @Romullus very much kindly! :)

@JoeVallard, and thank you very much kindly, too! :) That looks pretty much great. I'll follow all the instructions and come here with the render progress.
Thanks again.

I don't know what script to use, Sini Tooltip, Cleaner by Andreas (if I find the 2020 version) or Prune. Never mind, I'll try the Cleaner cause it was mentioned here on the forum, so I'll see.
Best regards guys.

2020-02-09, 17:18:31
Reply #6

Andrejee

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Hi guys.
I've finally fixed the lightning. Please see the attached picture and see this where I moved Corona Cam minus Y osis.
https://prnt.sc/qyofqj

Now I have camera problems - how to switch to the perfect angle, etc, for my very small interior project.
Do you think that the render could look nicer from that angle? I want to include the doors slightly because it would seem like an opening to the apartment.
Ideally, I wanted the render to include the down part of the doors (the carpet you see on the wireframe). But, I don't know how to do that?
On the attached render image, the resolution aspect is 1.5, but if I change that resolution aspect, I get i.g. the kitchen light but in some weird shape. So, I was wondering how to improve that attached render or you think it's fine?
* Ignore the sink not being applied totally to the sink basin, please, I've fixed it after.

It's limited project, 16m2 with the bathroom. So the camera is the main problem.
Camera1 - entrance on the attached render cause it showes everything to the maximum. Or it doesn't?
Camera2 - from the window with focus on the wardrobe/bed and the desk area.
Camera3 - from the window with focus on the door (just the opposite of the render I've attached)
Camera4 possible - just the kitchen with unhiding the bed/wardrobe objects.
Camera 5 possible - just what was in the original post - just the desk/shelves/sofa/window area.
Camera 6 from the kitchen with the focus onto the shelves.

Problem with the possible cameras 5 and 6 is next: If I do that, it would seem that the space is large. And in the reality space is not large definetely (16m2). If I unhide the objects, I'll make that illusion, but I do not want an illusion of the large space, but the real space.

So, you've figured out that I am basic or less with the cameras. I use CoronaCam and I have a script CameraResolutionMod - modifier. But, because I do not know how to use it, I would say that it is not of any benefit to me.
There are some interior design camera rules (as I've heard from people in Serbia) like parallel walls, 90 degrees, straight lines, and ok, I can do that, I did it with the attached render, but that is the only one I'm aware of. 

Do you have any suggestions? It's the same scene basically. And I will have to use cameras in the bathroom which is like 4sq meters.
Thanks in advance.

Unfortunatelly i can't open your scene - i'm on the max 2016. Hopefully someone else will take a look at it and will give you some feedback. Meanwhile, i can give you few tips for starters.
  • Make sure that the walls has thickness. That will prevent light leakage near the windows and in the corners #2, #7
  • You can set render output aspect ratio in render setup>common tab #6
  • Unless you know what you're doing, try to avoid turning off cast/receive shadows and doing other non-physical hacks. This can lead to great loss of realism #12
  • Avoid to use full strength and full white translucency in your materials. This can lead to unpredictable and unrealistic results #3
  • Use exposure to brighten your image and white balance to bring tones closer to neutral #10, #11
  • Don't be affraid to experiment with tonemapping controls in VFB to give your render more interesting look. Try some of the LUTs that are shipped with Corona #10
  • Add refflectivity to your materials and break uniform glossiness with some grungy maps, but try not to overdo it too much
  • Search for fitting materials in Corona material library - they could be good starting point for your scene.
  • Have some reference images and try to study them in terms of composition, lighting, materials.
That should do for now.
Well, thanks.
1) I applied thickness to the exterior wall part where the window fit in, but did not apply it to the ceilings/walls/floor in the material override and I have no leakage or is that relevant only when working with materials?
2) Thanks I've found about the render output. It is 1.5.
3) I did that.
4) Well, I still have a problem with the d*** (sorry for cursing, I do it for myself) curtain. The problem is that the curtain just emits it's color to the wall. And that was something I wanted to ask. I ve tried everything,b ut really everything with the curtain material (it's corona fabric or curtain basic material with modified colors), but although I excluded everything it still emits it's color. :/
5) Thanks about the exposure, I did not use that in this render material override. It was set to 0.
6) LUTs are cool, I did that, but not with this, I think.
7) Baking maps is something I need to learn - it seems very complicated to me right now?
8) Yes, all of the materials except the fabric of the chair and lamp on the desk and texture on the board above the desk are Corona's.
9) Well, this is interior project from my head, so I can't use reference images. But the @JoeVallard helped me a lot with his image.
And you, too with all of your advice.

So right now, Camera issues when it comes to angles, some rules in interior design, need to be realistic are the main focus with the problem of how to stop materials from emiting their color onto eachother. Yes, you told me that reflection maps would solve it, but how to bake reflection maps. For each of the interior objects? And for each camera?

Sorry for bothering if I did (and yes, I did surely), but that's are some problems I have.
Once again, thanks.

2020-02-09, 19:26:40
Reply #7

romullus

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This looks vastly better than the picture in the first post. It's nice to see the progress!

1) I applied thickness to the exterior wall part where the window fit in, but did not apply it to the ceilings/walls/floor in the material override and I have no leakage or is that relevant only when working with materials?
2) Thanks I've found about the render output. It is 1.5.
3) I did that.
4) Well, I still have a problem with the d*** (sorry for cursing, I do it for myself) curtain. The problem is that the curtain just emits it's color to the wall. And that was something I wanted to ask. I ve tried everything,b ut really everything with the curtain material (it's corona fabric or curtain basic material with modified colors), but although I excluded everything it still emits it's color. :/
5) Thanks about the exposure, I did not use that in this render material override. It was set to 0.
6) LUTs are cool, I did that, but not with this, I think.
7) Baking maps is something I need to learn - it seems very complicated to me right now?
8) Yes, all of the materials except the fabric of the chair and lamp on the desk and texture on the board above the desk are Corona's.
9) Well, this is interior project from my head, so I can't use reference images. But the @JoeVallard helped me a lot with his image.
And you, too with all of your advice.

#1. if you see no light leakage, then there's no strict requirement to add thickness to everything, although it's still advisable to do so. I usually separate outer walls into separate object, set its properties to display as box and freeze it, so it don't get in the way.
#4. excluding objects from casting shadows, is a bad habbit. You should try to resolve the issue through materials and/or tonemapping. Please show how your curtain looks now and how its material is made.
#7. i'm not sure what you're talking about - i didn't mention baking anywhere. Not sure why would you need it.
#9. even if you're making your own design, references are still very important. Search for interior photos or renderings that you like and try to see what exactly do you like in them and how you could translate that in to your own work.

So right now, Camera issues when it comes to angles, some rules in interior design, need to be realistic are the main focus with the problem of how to stop materials from emiting their color onto eachother. Yes, you told me that reflection maps would solve it, but how to bake reflection maps. For each of the interior objects? And for each camera?

No, i didn't tell you anything like that. That is some nonsense that you came up with on your own ;] Reflections won't stop the colour bleeding. What you want to look at first, is correct albedo (diffuse slot) values. Make sure that your colours are not too bright and not too saturated. If you still have colour bleeding issues even with more or less correct diffuse colours, then you can use rayswitch material and control the bleeding that way. https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/5000529341-what-is-rayswitch-material-and-map-
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2020-02-09, 22:51:33
Reply #8

Andrejee

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Hey, thanks! And thanks for the detailed answer once again. :)

1) Hm, I understand. It's just that my PC is slow and I try to reduce everything I can now before moving onto the next project and next PC. I will read for sure your and (Joe's) advice here multiple times even when doing that.
4) Yes, but I'll try to resolve that and post here screenshots of the image and of the object properties, cause that's the best way instead of rambling like me.
7) I misunderstood, sorry. Cause I was reading this from you
"Add reflectivity to your materials and break uniform glossiness with some grungy maps, but try not to overdo it too much"
And I realized that people bake textures and add glossiness and reflectivity in those ways. But you told me to break the glossiness, not to add, my mistake.
So yes, I created something in my head. :D I apologize, you're right. I just needed to add maps from the 3Ds Max or Corona. But what maps, ah. I see one guy is using raytrace and playing with ambient.

But I'll google that and see, this link you added will be helpful a lot. Thanks. That guy has a sound from explaining in that link that I would recognize if I meet him "Like, I know you from somewhere... :D"

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2017/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-09ABD021-B149-4FDF-A556-AB58F3B80E5A-htm.html
And your link reminds me of these.

The tricky part is that my computer is so slow that I will need to print those webpages in order to understand anything. Cause I can't open chrome or 3Ds max will freeze. That's why I'm so slow and not frequent with updates.
Ok, thank you, I'll come with updates. And I guess I'll just have to find the right camera angles or to play with it to see how I should show all the elements of the project without actually making something looking bigger than it is. Cause it is small and if I were the customer, I would have liked that, although it is a non-commercial project.

Too long message, see you, and thanks.
Best regards!

2020-02-11, 00:49:24
Reply #9

Andrejee

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Hi. Not to open a new topic. It'll take me some time to move onto materials.

Here's something to think about. This rendered image from that camera had normal rays considering my PC performance. So everything was basically quick.
I added a second CoronaCam2 in the same scene and things are very different when it comes to the rays. I basically have 20 actual rays, and total of 120 000 - about. Which is far different than in the CoronaCam1.
Here's the weird thing. When I render in CoronaCam1 - it is normal, but when I render in CoronaCam2 it is not normal.
Same settings.
Both CoronaCam1 and 2 had applied Corona Resolution Mod, CoronaCam1 is 1500/1000, and CoronaCam2 is 1800/2000 (w/h)
Is the resolution problem?
It is the same scene.

P.S. Should I open new topic for this kind of questions, or should I reply in topic of another user who had similar problem or should I post it here if you know?

2020-02-11, 16:03:54
Reply #10

romullus

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[..]

Please don't watch these tutorials and if you already did, try your hardest to forget everything you saw there :] If you want to learn Corona, then you should read and watch dedicated tutorials, preferably from trusted sources. Best place to look for Corona educational material, would be Corona's helpdesk and official youtube channel. https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/home and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_5CpKKSI-YZhEWDt0fbhKA
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
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2020-02-11, 19:41:51
Reply #11

Andrejee

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Yes, you re right. If I m using Corona, I shoild stick to it.

Nevertheless, I have a problem with the 2 cameras having faar different rays in the same scene still so if no oneis familiar with that problem I ll just submit the scene once again here for people to investigate.

In the meantime, I ve decided to delete all the materials and apply only glass where is necessary cause it s been really strugling for my PC Intel q8200 RAM 4 GeForce 210 1 GB to work with it. And very painful to me.
And I ll do just the material override.
Maybe even switch to 2017 Max, but from my experience Max 14 didn t even work any better than the Max 20, so I guess the complexity of the scene is the problem for my configuration.

Thanks @Romullus.

2020-02-11, 21:06:48
Reply #12

romullus

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Both CoronaCam1 and 2 had applied Corona Resolution Mod, CoronaCam1 is 1500/1000, and CoronaCam2 is 1800/2000 (w/h)

Try to remove any modifier from the cameras and render again. If difference still remains, then provide scene for investigation or report a bug.
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2020-02-12, 00:12:59
Reply #13

Andrejee

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Thanks.I ll try that next time.
Actually, it was resolved with just clearing the materials this time. When I gonna need materials, I ll remember the advice.
Thanks once again.

2020-02-19, 04:20:05
Reply #14

Andrejee

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Well, these are the renders. Honestly, I could have done the one renders from the bathroom better - attachment named "kupatilo" much better. But, it's a very small space + low PC, so I didn't want to try and I have other tasks for now.

When it comes to the rays and samples (Romulus), those figures continued to behave weirdly in the last renders except for the last render from a top view.
Dunno what's the problem. Samples figures are usually low and that causes slow rendering. I render around 60 passes cause I've heard that's usually enough, so it took me even more than 2 hours for some renders. Nevertheless, when I get a new PC, I'll see it. 
I know there are many tricks with interior design to position the camera in other ways, but for now, I did only this.
What do you think of the renderers from the, let's say it, customer perspective and camera angles?

It is an around 16 square meters apartment, so it's very small and I've tried to show it as it is, so I did not put the camera in the place of the hidden objects. I didn't want to show it bigger, cause it is not big and it is very tiny - that was the point of the render for me - dunno if someone had experience with tiny apartments, renders? I wanted to show it realistic (yes, I know that is not the best marketing for buyers).
I did not LUT anything except the render I've already posted maybe and I did not get in touch with the other postprocessing features of Corona or other software. 
I know that it can always be better, but my PC is dead basically and I didn't have the nerves to work in such conditions cause I had so many troubles with Max since I started learning it due to low configuration + due to I am not able to render materials because of that, only material override.
Rate it on some scale or better with words what could be better in terms of camera angles and the customer perspective if you find some time, thank you.
Or just in general what do you think based on those criteria (camera position, angle, customer - marketing, etc) and how would you do it, (just describe with words)? :)

Nazdravie!