Author Topic: Substance Map - Max2017 - General Guidelines ?  (Read 3670 times)

2017-02-19, 16:37:40

Utroll

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Hello,

There's a few things I'm still very wondering about how to use Substance with CoronaMtl.
(I had no opportunity to 'play' with corona for a long while so may be I'm missing some very obvious reflex about classic corona workflow.)

1/ Overall... Beside the random crash in corona RT, would you recommend using Substance maps/node with corona ?

2/ I was trying a few substance files and I had the feeling the gamma outputed from substance node is wrong. See attached images below.
(With preferences Gamma&LUT set to 2.2 / Affects selectors.. / Affects material.. setup.)
It looks like it needs a gamma correction at least along the diffuse output (color correction with RGB gain at 0.4545) to be correct.

As shown below in attached images :
1 the 'coal' substance without and with gamma correction.
2 'pavement1' not corrected, without reflection, there's a lot of whiteburnt pixels even with little highlight comp and -3.5ev
3 'pavement1' corrected (all outputs), without reflection, looks a bit dark but the -3.5ev makes the whole image a bit dark.
4 'pavement1' corrected + reflections, just to bring back brightness over the diffuse, looks pretty correct or ?

The grey sphere was added with a R50G50B50 solid color into diffuse for 'realist' exposition reference

In the case output from substance needs gamma correction, which maps needs it ?

3/ How can the 'blur' parameters be conveniently managed while there's a single parameter on substance's node; if bump needs some blurriness, but I'd rather have most outputs sharp... Is there a decent in-between value or is it just a flawan argument against the use of substance ?

4/ Is the 'specular' output from Substance intended to end in 'reflection color' from CoronaMtl or more 'refl. glossiness'.. I'm not really convinced by tests with both, although as I'm already struggling with the gamma correction it's may be me feeding CoronaMtl wrongly in first place.

5/ About displacement, there I'm lost too.. first there's a 'relief balance' parameter in substance which control the ratio of bump/displacement outputs. But that parameter seems to be far from linear, with value '1' (aka more displacement and little bump) it suddently gives a way much more detailled displacement while superior values make the displacement output pretty undetailled.
What configuration do you use with 'bump', 'normal map', 'displacement' ? (And would they need gamma correction?)

Beside, there's an 'height' output, which gives a displacement map independant from 'relief balance'. Would you recommend using that output more than 'displacement' for the displacement input of CoronaMtl ?
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-D98A5D87-EFF1-45DD-8132-69B86FB8454E-htm.html

6/ Any advices you have figured out while using Substance with Corona ?
« Last Edit: 2017-02-19, 16:50:21 by Utroll »

2017-02-21, 21:36:19
Reply #1

JGallagher

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They have a node built into Substance Designer called 'BaseColor/Metallic/Roughness converter" that has a setting for Corona.

I take the outputs from that and use the infograph in this thread: http://polycount.com/discussion/155524/pbr-basecolor-metallic-to-vray-3-2-corona-redshift-arnold-converter/p1 I'm not sure if it's still the preferred/correct method, but it seems to work well for me.

2017-02-22, 11:15:03
Reply #2

Utroll

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They have a node built into Substance Designer called 'BaseColor/Metallic/Roughness converter" that has a setting for Corona.

I take the outputs from that and use the infograph in this thread: http://polycount.com/discussion/155524/pbr-basecolor-metallic-to-vray-3-2-corona-redshift-arnold-converter/p1 I'm not sure if it's still the preferred/correct method, but it seems to work well for me.

You need Substance Designer then, correct ?

So you do not correct any gamma within Corona for diffuse afterward ?
We can see on the infography provided on your link that glossiness and IOR have gamma reduced.. but I have no idea where they find such a parameter/node ?

Anyway thanks a lot for your insight !
the discussion about IOR below the infrography is interesting too

2017-02-22, 13:56:14
Reply #3

maru

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There are some issues with Substance, but we are getting almost no reports about them, which suggests that virtually nobody uses Substance with Corona.
On the other hand, Substance seems to be popular with C4D, so we should probably introduce better support soon.

If you believe that there is some serious issue with Substance+Corona (e.g. it makes work very slow or cumbersome) - please report it on Mantis with a good description: https://corona-renderer.com/bugs

2017-02-22, 16:05:18
Reply #4

Utroll

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Quote
If you believe that there is some serious issue with Substance+Corona (e.g. it makes work very slow or cumbersome) - please report it on Mantis with a good description: https://corona-renderer.com/bugs

That's exactly it, I'm wondering why there isn't much more people using it /doing tuts&tips / etc...
And I was wondering if it could have to do with poor results it gives at first with everything on default (overbright/gamma for instance..)

Ideally finding and posting a workflow perfectly maintaining aspect between substance designer & corona render would be a good start.

Below just a very quick photoshop compositing of my previous example on a random plazza photo (google image) with substance pavement1 & gamma lowered.

2017-02-22, 16:34:21
Reply #5

TomG

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We will be doing a tutorial on Substance Painter to Corona (edit: for 3ds Max) at some point, possibly soon (a rough exists, but needs a bit of updating, will see how time goes for allowing that :) ). On the Substance Map in Max, it was unstable previously, though in recent tests I've not had any problem with it. Could use more extensive testing though - it used to cause crashes, but I haven't experienced that of late, but that could just be good fortune. Some initial tests I did with Substance Map in C4D also seemed stable. That said, all these tests were pretty quick and not in depth, so any feedback from the community on your experiences is always appreciated!

2019-09-03, 12:42:26
Reply #6

James Vella

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Hey there, I wrote a short tutorial on how to get your Substance Designer maps working correctly in Corona, I also created this workflow so I can easily convert it to vray without needing anything other than right click > convert to. Hopefully someone finds this useful. Its based on the Specular - Glossiness workflow, I also show some tests I did with the Metallic Conversion, thanks to JGallagher for your previous research it helped me when doing my tests with other workflows.

https://www.jamesvella.net/blog/2019/9/2/substance-designer-to-vraycorona

2019-09-10, 00:01:39
Reply #7

cjwidd

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I use the Substance to 3ds Max plugin regularly as a part of my workflow and it is tremendously useful for surfacing archviz props and environments. Unfortunately, I have encountered issues while using the plugin with Corona Renderer, not the least of which includes crashes while updating substance parameters during interactive rendering (IR).

Other issues include parameters not updating altogether and, of course, issues related to visual parity when rendering directly from the .sbsar and texture maps baked [internally] from the same .sbsar file.

I would very much like to see a more stable release of the plugin, but after Allegorithmic dropped support for Substance Source in 3ds Max, I got the feeling that development for the plugin had slowed or stopped.
« Last Edit: 2019-09-10, 00:11:59 by cjwidd »

2019-09-10, 09:36:10
Reply #8

romullus

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If you're talking about legacy substance plugin, that is shipping with 3ds max, then it's a piece of crap that shouldn't be touched by anyone. Allegorithmic has released new updated version of this plugin, but it's available only for max 2018+ If your max is supporting it, then that's what you should use.

https://www.substance3d.com/integrations/substance-in-3ds-max
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2019-09-10, 15:58:08
Reply #9

cjwidd

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Haha, unfortunately in this case, I am referring to the 2018 version linked in your post

2019-09-10, 16:36:11
Reply #10

romullus

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Hmm, are you sure that Allegorithmic has dropped plugin's support? I think i saw quite recent posts on their blog about substance integration in 3ds max and use cases. Can't say anything about stability though, as, sadly, this plugin is not available for older max.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
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2019-09-10, 16:43:52
Reply #11

cjwidd

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I want to be clear that AFAIK Allegorithmic dropped support for Substance Source in 3ds Max, but Substance for 3Ds Max 2018+ is a separate plugin that is still being supported.
« Last Edit: 2019-09-10, 19:07:58 by cjwidd »

2019-09-15, 23:20:01
Reply #12

cjwidd

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Alright, I have a reproducible issue with 3ds Max (2018) Substance plugin to report and it appears that is has already been mentioned numerous times on the Substance Forums.

The issue is that adjustments to substance parameters do not update in Corona Interactive Renderer. I have seen this issue before and it seems to vary - it is not always reproducible.