Author Topic: With all due respect to the Corona team  (Read 29165 times)

2016-10-29, 20:29:14
Reply #90

sebastian___

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And my client ask for reflection from catalog. For example they want compare stucco which reflect 55% of light with stucco which reflect 47%. So I just looking for a way. It's not for battles.

PS. My clients doesn't interesting in true lighting model, in mood and emotions. He want only to sell his property. And if he wants blue windows and oversaturated sky (very common case) - I'll give him.

But corona doesn't prevent you to achieve that. You can achieve anything with corona. Just like with the default old school material. I don't even use corona, and I still know how to get stuff from the new shading model, just by watching a few youtube videos.
 You can of course control the reflection level, and in fact the new model is more intuitive and similar somewhat to how the materials act in reality.
Why is sometimes a surface more reflective while some other times is matte ?
Why are some surfaces more glossy while some have a mirror finish ?
Hint : all of these are related.

2016-10-29, 20:45:17
Reply #91

denisgo22

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PS. My clients doesn't interesting in true lighting model, in mood and emotions. He want only to sell his property. And if he wants blue windows and oversaturated sky (very common case) - I'll give him.

For these fakes do not need Physical Based material render, because this not photorealistic concept at all:)
In this case, no matter what renderer to use--- Vray or Corona, the result will be the same :(
I very well know that from my own experience, because I do 5 projects per day too, without testing, for same kind of client's, but in Vray.
The same foliage,materials,models, people on balconies and bright happy daylight :)))Everyone Happy///
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Corona i use only for private long time job's/
« Last Edit: 2016-10-29, 21:15:56 by denisgo22 »

2016-10-29, 23:36:12
Reply #92

astudio

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Yes. It's my case.

I began to work with corona, because it was much more friendly, and worked better with HDRI. There was a lot of splotches in vray from strong HDRI. I used only biosed setup for the speed.

I began with corona for interiors only, but after 1.4.1 make exterior too. Main thing for me, that with denoise I may stop it in 10 minutes, if my client needs render urgently... 

Now I am a little beet confused with new materials and need to prepare new libraries. Old materials are not working now. I used CoronaMix a lot, now it mixes in sRGB and all my materials oversaturated now. So all my same trees and same people need to be changed. I prepared them for 1.4.1 only some monthes ago. :(

As I understand, today I can't take material from my library, adjust glossy and forget about it.  I'll need tweaking, testing... OK, we'll look ...

2016-10-30, 02:34:46
Reply #93

astudio

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If somebody interesting in.
I try to compensate brightening of the material from interaction with glossy by darkening of diffuse.
(Artist will be against this, less-artist will understand me.
May be ask from Corona team a "compensation button"?)
 
I keep my refl.glossy constant. When I increase output of diffuse map - everything as expected, material in render brighter.
But when I decrease it - material brightens too. With output=0.1 my concrete map almost black, but in render it's brighter, then with output=1.0

I think there is some explanation, which I don't know, but interesting anyway. With RGB level everything works as expected.

2016-10-30, 07:41:38
Reply #94

denisgo22

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If somebody interesting in.
I try to compensate brightening of the material from interaction with glossy by darkening of diffuse.
(Artist will be against this, less-artist will understand me.
May be ask from Corona team a "compensation button"?)
 
I keep my refl.glossy constant. When I increase output of diffuse map - everything as expected, material in render brighter.
But when I decrease it - material brightens too. With output=0.1 my concrete map almost black, but in render it's brighter, then with output=1.0

I think there is some explanation, which I don't know, but interesting anyway. With RGB level everything works as expected.

May be you have darkening of reflection value /etc. set reflection to 0.5 or 0.2/ instead 1.0

2016-10-30, 10:43:33
Reply #95

romullus

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@astudio, can you make more mess out of this thread than it already is? Please try not to act as moderator's nightmare, if you have question unrelated to topic, please post it as separate thread in appropriate board, preferably this one: https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php/board,29.0.html


I keep my refl.glossy constant. When I increase output of diffuse map - everything as expected, material in render brighter.
But when I decrease it - material brightens too. With output=0.1 my concrete map almost black, but in render it's brighter, then with output=1.0

I think there is some explanation, which I don't know, but interesting anyway. With RGB level everything works as expected.

Yes, there is simple explanation. When you lower output amount of any map, it does what it's supposed to do - lowers output (influence) of that map to shader tree. If you plug map directly to material's diffuse slot and lower map's output amount, then material's diffuse colour will start to show trough. You can easily see it by yourself - change materials diffuse colour to some bright saturated value (screanimg red for example), lower map's output amount and watch what happens.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
My Models | My Videos | My Pictures

2016-10-30, 13:06:43
Reply #96

astudio

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@densgo22
It's what I usually used to do before. As I understood from other users PRB materials work in different way.

@romullus
Thank you for explanation. Really simple.
And I'm sorry for nightmare. This thread about simplicity of managing new concept. I don't want to confuse other users with other point of few.

I'm looking for non-artistic way (means catalogs, reference books and so on). Something simple like add 10% to glossy >> reduce 10% from diffuse lightness.
It's hard to explain to artist, but it's clear enough for non-artist. (Just two different ways of thinking).

After all, my goal is to follow to client's requirements.
I used a lot reflectance values from catalogs but they are out of game now, as I understand. So I need another simple way to manage materials without "go to photoshop and change your glossy map with this simle LUT" for every material in the scene. It's just impossible in real workflow.

And yes, I haven't standard help documentation. And usually I'm out of forum, I just haven't time. So I may miss things.


2016-11-07, 04:20:46
Reply #97

TomEnokR

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I think this thread has gotten WAY off topic.

The initial post wasn't about making Corona easier. It was helping some of us understand the basic 101's of rendering, color picking, different color selection choices, etc.  and the "how" and "why"  these things hang together.

Albert Einstein once said, "If you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough."

I'm a technologist by trade. I've architected elegant solutions that were complex in design, but fairly simple to explain to the board of directors who were PAYING for it. 80% of corona users aren't that technically savvy but they're still paying customer and want to become better.

When I read the INITIAL thread that started this post, I saw a messages saying "Pretend that the average Corona user is a guy who doesn't understand all of this stuff by default, but still does (or wants to do) alot of 3D work." Then he went on to say that if the average user can understand some basic fundamentals, the quality of their renders would skyrocket and would better help promote Corona. I saw NOTHING in there that said he wanted CORONA simpler. He want's to UNDERSTAND fundamental concepts THAT MOST OF YOU ALREADY KNOW BY EXPERIENCE, more simply.

The biggest problem (from his perspective) and I happen to agree... is that all you brilliant animators and programmers and artists take for granted how much you know about the basics that you're flying 50,000 feet over the head of the average user who doesn't even know where to begin to look to understand this.

His post, to me, wasn't a request to simplify corona. It was a request to explain some of the more simple concepts that so many of you assume we all know. And, like him, many of us have no idea where to even start to look to find it.



2016-11-07, 12:27:13
Reply #98

Jpjapers

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I somewhat agree^ It would be useful to know the how and why we use sRGB colour space and things like that but i dont think its for the corona team to have to do. The information is out there online im sure and its somewhat of a prerequisite to professional rendering i think.

2016-11-07, 16:39:14
Reply #99

TomEnokR

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I just finished a 60 second animated commercial for a solar company. It's GORGEOUS.

But I have NO FREAKING CLUE how I got the lighting right. And some of it, frankly, I didn't.

I couldn't figure out how to get some of the opacities to render correctly, so I cheated.

I enjoyed playing with the material editor; plugging all the cool different options into all the cool different other options. But at the end of the day, if I ended up with something usable, I was awestruck.

This is NOT my day job. It's just something I do around my investing and international travel. It's a wonderful hobby that can pay pretty well if you hit the right clientele.

-I'm a professional level photographer; so I understand ISO and parallax and f-stops.

-I'm a technologist so I understand optimizing render times and the such.

-I taught photoshop in University, so I know the Adobe suite and post production.

-I'm a early adopter of 3D animation (I owned Crystal Graphics before 3D Studio was launched and got the very first version when it first came out) but have since taken an 20 year hiatus and have just returned to animation. So I understand rigging and keyframes...

So I'm no slouch. And certainly don't want stuff easy and cheap. But I DO want to learn and strengthen my deficiencies, and GOOGLE SEARCH doesn't do it.

So, if it's not the job of the Corona team (and I'm not sure it is either, but it's still a gaping hole in connecting their product to quality renders from the masses), then I'm simply asking for direction.

Where can we find some of this stuff? What IS a good repository for all things animation that would apply specifically to 3D Studio max and Corona?

Are there good books? Websites? Suggestions?

Cuz like this other guy,aside from a few youtube tutorials by various artists (and some are terrible at best), I'm not finding a really good cohesive resource for some of this stuff.

2016-11-07, 16:49:52
Reply #100

Noah45

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-I'm a early adopter of 3D animation (I owned Crystal Graphics before 3D Studio was launched and got the very first version when it first came out) but have since taken an 20 year hiatus and have just returned to animation. So I understand rigging and keyframes...

^ And T.I.P.S was our paint program, on a Targa 32 board back then?

Love the new Youtube Corona PBR video, would like to see more. Especially complex metals.
Retail Illustrator  (for ever' 80's )
3DMax 2020/Corona Version: 6DB

2016-11-07, 16:59:31
Reply #101

Jpjapers

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I just finished a 60 second animated commercial for a solar company. It's GORGEOUS.

[SNIP]


Dont get me wrong i completely agree there needs to be more in depth documentation and tutorials.

2016-11-07, 18:38:38
Reply #102

astudio

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@ TomEnokR  Thank you. Nice explanation of the problem. I really can't find simple and trusted information. There is a lot of opinions but 90% of users don't understand what they are talking about.
Sometimes I haven't experience to solve the problems, but I have enough to distinguish stupid answers.

Just a simple example from my everyday work.
First revision - my client asks "more light in balconies area."
For sure I may fake it (just paint balconies floors in white or redraw HDRI).
But what will be a right way to increase reflected light "without touch the reflection"? Increase IOR and glossy? I never played with IOR before for this needs. I want to understand a way, it will take less time then a lot of tests.

It's not offtopic. I tried to explain why I want verified help documentation so much. Or any kind of another verified practical information.

PS. For BigArtists. Here is not final render, just model in early stage.

2016-11-07, 19:11:24
Reply #103

pokoy

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If the material on the balconys' ground is reflective - disable reflections, so more light can bounce off from the diffuse part of the shader.
If the material on the balconys' ground is grey or black - make it as bright as possible so more light can bounce off (dark materials absorb more incoming light than bright materials)
If this doesn't produce enough 'light', consider making the material on the ground slightly self-illuminating/emissive.

That's about the level of control you have if you want to keep the lighting as it is now.

You're not alone with this, similar requests surface everywhere in any industry, not only in archviz. I guess the trick is to take care of as much as possible before you send it out to the client. If you find the perfect lighting yourself and take care of the things in the first place that you know your client may want to improve then you'll probably save yourself a lot of time. Or get used to the fact that you need to retouch your renders in PS or render in different versions and compose later, which is what almost everybody has to do because you really can't cheat some things.
Then again, clients sometimes have unrealistic expectations and you may have to say that it's not possible. It's the hardest thing to learn, but it's absolutely professional in some situations and something you'll have to do every now and then.

2016-11-07, 19:22:56
Reply #104

denisgo22

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Just a simple example from my everyday work.
First revision - my client asks "more light in balconies area."
For sure I may fake it (just paint balconies floors in white or redraw HDRI).
But what will be a right way to increase reflected light "without touch the reflection"? Increase IOR and glossy? I never played with IOR before for this needs. I want to understand a way, it will take less time then a lot of tests.



Then again, clients sometimes have unrealistic expectations and you may have to say that it's not possible. It's the hardest thing to learn, but it's absolutely professional in some situations and something you'll have to do every now and then.
Exist only two ways///
To choose from those clients,  the clients who understand what this "Physical base render and material",
or making fakes:)))

« Last Edit: 2016-11-07, 19:26:22 by denisgo22 »