Chaos Corona Forum
Chaos Corona for 3ds Max => [Max] I need help! => Topic started by: Serj-3DVision on 2023-11-30, 22:42:29
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Hello, after seeing that Color Management were added to corona 11 i'm trying to understand how i can stat to use it.
I'm trying to understand why in Corona Framebuffer there are no conversion from ACEScg to sRGB.
Im using default max2024 OCIO config in Color Management tab, newer config gives me error that it is not supported/compatible.
Image 1 - screenshot how it looks in Frame Buffer.
Image 2 - file saved in EXR
Image 3 - standard conversion from ACEScg to sRGB
From my experience with Octane for example, what i see in Frame Buffer (image 1) should be exactly the same as Image 3.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi, sorry, I don't have an explanation yet. I will try to get it for you, but first I have a more general question: can you please explain what exactly you would like to do and why? Are you trying to display your image in a wider color space, for example because you have a monitor operating in a wider color space? Or is it something completely different? Or maybe you are just testing the new features and looking for information?
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Here is what is happening:
When using a custom color space (the "OCIO/ACES workflow"), the the VFB content is in linear sRGB instead of the expected gamma-corrected sRGB - this is why it looks "wrong". The reason for this is that with the current color management implementation, Corona does not respect the 3ds Max Display and Views > Frame Buffer Default (https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41479.0;attach=192046;image) option.
We are working on improving the color management support and also trying to come up with a workaround that would allow users to see the image in the VFB as expected.
Also, we are planning new VFB features for Corona 12 (and a reskin), with the intention of making working with OCIO/ACES easier.
What works correctly right now is:
- Loading textures created in specific color spaces (there is a new drop-down for this in Corona Bitmap (and Corona Color))
- Rendering in a specific color space (all internal calculations are done in that color space)
- Outputting files with the selected color space and conversion (3ds Max 2024 "color management" section in the "Save image" dialog (https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41479.0;attach=192048;image)).
What we suggest:
If you do not need to load textures created in specific color spaces or are not planning to render in specific color spaces to bring your images into 2D editors or compositing software, leave the 3ds Max color management settings at the legacy gamma workflow.
Otherwise, you can use the available options (loading textures, customizing 3ds Max color management, outputting in specific color space), but bear in mind that the result visible in the VFB will be displayed in linear sRGB.
We are also working on a color management guide that we will share with everyone.
Sorry for not fully supporting everything. We are doing our best to improve this. Meanwhile, we are still interested in hearing what color management options you are interested in and why.
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Hi, I think we should have in Corona the same color management as in V-Ray, same possibilities, not less.
And then make a: ''one and only guide'' or Corona Academy lesson about this topic: ''COLOR MANAGEMENT'' We as designers or 3D artists need the best color accuracy, and potential of our tool.
Thank you for your interest in users opinion, and great work.
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I also think Corona renderer should be the same as Vray's color management method
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Also, we are planning new VFB features for Corona 12 (and a reskin),
For the reskin don't forget to make the VFB be able to be resized smaller (if posible) because the old version had a hard limit, which was bigger than if you would use the VFB in a viewport.
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In the newest Corona 12 daily build we now have a new Gamma Correction operator which you can add in the VFB to bring back the sRGB gamma to the image you are viewing.
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In the newest Corona 12 daily build we now have a new Gamma Correction operator which you can add in the VFB to bring back the sRGB gamma to the image you are viewing.
most welcome addition, thank you.
is adding “inverse” option planned? to linearize piecewise srgb?
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is adding “inverse” option planned? to linearize piecewise srgb?
This is now reported as a feature request, but can you additionally explain why exactly you need this option? In what cases would you be using it?
(Internal ID=1268084774)
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is adding “inverse” option planned? to linearize piecewise srgb?
This is now reported as a feature request, but can you additionally explain why exactly you need this option? In what cases would you be using it?
(Internal ID=1268084774)
to somewhat fix Corona's lut handling.
https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?topic=40988.0
thank you.
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So you would "linearize" the image, then apply LUT, and then gamma-correct it again?
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So you would "linearize" the image, then apply LUT, and then gamma-correct it again?
yes,
to remove under-the-hood gamma transform before lut and get rid of the viewing transform of frame buffer.
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Ok, thanks for the explanation!
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Hello, after seeing that Color Management were added to corona 11 i'm trying to understand how i can stat to use it.
I'm trying to understand why in Corona Framebuffer there are no conversion from ACEScg to sRGB.
Im using default max2024 OCIO config in Color Management tab, newer config gives me error that it is not supported/compatible.
Image 1 - screenshot how it looks in Frame Buffer.
Image 2 - file saved in EXR
Image 3 - standard conversion from ACEScg to sRGB
From my experience with Octane for example, what i see in Frame Buffer (image 1) should be exactly the same as Image 3.
Thanks in advance.
and regarding the ACES workflow in Corona/max - one thing to be aware of - 3dsmax (and even VRay) seriously lags behind in ocio implementation: for example you can not see properly aces 1.3 output with ocio configs available from aces githubs. you are stuck with 1.2. you need to make a custom config file that works around some newer ocio features (display - view - look structure: this is now only supported by VRayOCIO map weirdly)
you might be better off using just luts in CIE for the sake of simplicity.
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I don't get all these ACES settings; ACES Settings are in the 3D Software, and ACES Settings are in the renderer and don't communicate. I still use the standard Gamma correction Colorspace in 3DSmax and render out all with Corona render and save as TIFF 16bit, as I did in the last few years; that works perfectly.
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I don't get all these ACES settings; ACES Settings are in the 3D Software, and ACES Settings are in the renderer and don't communicate. I still use the standard Gamma correction Colorspace in 3DSmax and render out all with Corona render and save as TIFF 16bit, as I did in the last few years; that works perfectly.
Sure, if you can work with the gamma workflow, please do. In most cases, that's the best solution.
Color management is there for people who need it. If you have a texture created in some specific color space which is expected to be loaded in that color space - you can do it now. Same if you need to output your image in a specific color space (for example if that's a requirement for further post-processing).
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It is not about ACES and it is not about managing inputs and outputs in your DCC. Not in the slightest.
The main point is making rendering using wider gamut primaries easier. This is why 3ds max and Corona need colour management tools.
This is rough visualisation of measured real surface colours (rainbow boundary line) or PBR diffuse colours if you will, within visible spectrum. sRGB input is what Corona traditionally worked with, BT.709, so your colour swatches in max, textures you use with Corona etc. Everything within rainbow boundary and falling outside of sRGB triangle are real world colours that you can not describe with BT.709 primaries. You need BT.2020, ACEScg (AP1 triangle) or other for that. So you can make PBR simply more PB:
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Here is what is happening:
When using a custom color space (the "OCIO/ACES workflow"), the the VFB content is in linear sRGB instead of the expected gamma-corrected sRGB - this is why it looks "wrong". The reason for this is that with the current color management implementation, Corona does not respect the 3ds Max Display and Views > Frame Buffer Default (https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41479.0;attach=192046;image) option.
We are working on improving the color management support and also trying to come up with a workaround that would allow users to see the image in the VFB as expected.
Also, we are planning new VFB features for Corona 12 (and a reskin), with the intention of making working with OCIO/ACES easier.
What works correctly right now is:
- Loading textures created in specific color spaces (there is a new drop-down for this in Corona Bitmap (and Corona Color))
- Rendering in a specific color space (all internal calculations are done in that color space)
- Outputting files with the selected color space and conversion (3ds Max 2024 "color management" section in the "Save image" dialog (https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41479.0;attach=192048;image)).
What we suggest:
If you do not need to load textures created in specific color spaces or are not planning to render in specific color spaces to bring your images into 2D editors or compositing software, leave the 3ds Max color management settings at the legacy gamma workflow.
Otherwise, you can use the available options (loading textures, customizing 3ds Max color management, outputting in specific color space), but bear in mind that the result visible in the VFB will be displayed in linear sRGB.
We are also working on a color management guide that we will share with everyone.
Sorry for not fully supporting everything. We are doing our best to improve this. Meanwhile, we are still interested in hearing what color management options you are interested in and why.
Sorry for late response.
Appreciate your feedback.
We do need to work in ACES color space in studio, for the meantime we are do all conversion inside our post process software, but its far from good solution.
I'm looking for the possibility to have process as streamlined as possible for 3d artist in studio to work with ACES.
Its important to have ability to see in Frame Buffer image converted to non linear sRGB image during interactive rendering (say while i work on lighting and shaders) and ability of saving as EXR linear ACEScg image.
This process implemented very well for example in Octane Render for Cinema4D.
Inside frame buffer you can chose color space to be shown inside FrameBuffer (either linear, or non linear converted to sRGB) without affecting output of the exr file.
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Sorry for late response.
Appreciate your feedback.
We do need to work in ACES color space in studio, for the meantime we are do all conversion inside our post process software, but its far from good solution.
I'm looking for the possibility to have process as streamlined as possible for 3d artist in studio to work with ACES.
Its important to have ability to see in Frame Buffer image converted to non linear sRGB image during interactive rendering (say while i work on lighting and shaders) and ability of saving as EXR linear ACEScg image.
This process implemented very well for example in Octane Render for Cinema4D.
Inside frame buffer you can chose color space to be shown inside FrameBuffer (either linear, or non linear converted to sRGB) without affecting output of the exr file.
have you tried doing all that with jus luts?
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Yes, its not perfect, but can work.
The problem is i have to uncheck LUT when i send it to render farm. Which is something that have to be remembered.
And because its something that should be remembered by the whole team of artists in studio this cause problems (people always forget to check/uncheck something)
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Yes, its not perfect, but can work.
The problem is i have to uncheck LUT when i send it to render farm. Which is something that have to be remembered.
And because its something that should be remembered by the whole team of artists in studio this cause problems (people always forget to check/uncheck something)
just a script, probably per camera, that gets executed when you send to render. turn off view luts, turn off region rendering etc. all the things you need.