Chaos Corona Forum
Chaos Corona for 3ds Max => [Max] I need help! => Topic started by: Dfenton on 2018-08-14, 18:13:34
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Hello guys,
A client who I previously did a set of images for wants to use one of them on a gigantic wall banner that will be 400" x 600"(approx. 10x15m). They have stipulated that this needs to be 150dpi.
I've calculated that this equates to an approximate 63,000 x 90,000 pixel image - which is ridiculously vast. Incidentally, I've mentioned to them that it may not be necessary for the image to be 150dpi if it is to be a wall banner at such a large size, but this is the requirement from their signage department apparently and they are unwilling to adjust it.
Even if I render out at less than this 90,000 pixels and upscale it in post - I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to do a large pixel output in Corona and 3ds Max. Has anyone encountered such a problem before? I did a couple of tests just to see how the software would respond, and Corona, Max and my 64GB RAM machine crashes every time in the pre-calculation phase on a 90,000 pixel output (no surprise really).
There must be a better way of achieving something like this? Any wisdom you could share here would be wonderfully appreciated!
Thanks a lot guys!
Douglas
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Strip rendering is the first thing that comes to mind. Note that the "farm" in question could just be the one machine :) https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2017/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-0A49D59A-313C-438F-9698-71C1263AD432-htm.html (https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2017/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-0A49D59A-313C-438F-9698-71C1263AD432-htm.html)
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I've rendered images for a 150 meters banner a few times and after calculating costs, render time etc I convinced the client that 45K width will do. If the banner will not be viewed from a distance of 1 meter, 150dpi is not needed at all.
If Max crashes you can render out tiles. You'd set the resolution to the final values, and then render tiles in 'crop' mode to save memory.
But with 64GB you may run out of memory when comping the image at the desired resolution - it's going to be ~21.1 GB for RGB with Alpha (~16GB without). Whatever it is that you need to do in PS, it's going to be *very* slow and saving alone will make for a nice coffee break.
FWIW, Max' UI will not allow you to use any number higher than 32K for output resolution, you can override this by using maxscript, however.
Also, PS used to have a 65K limit in the past, not sure if they changed it in more recent versions, so keep in mind this could be limiting the output resolution...
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Tom, Pokoy - thanks a lot for the feedback.
I'm looking into the strip rendering option now. The slowdown in PS does worry me somewhat though. I don't think I'll render the full 90k - I'll do a few tests at lower resolution like you say and hopefully get away with that.
D.
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Just a note on the strip rendering in BB - there used to be a bug where the last step in backburner (combining the strips into one image) would erase all HDR data. Make sure to make a few tests if you render to any HDR formats such as EXR or HDR. Also, not sure if it'll support CXR if that's what you want to use.
In any case, make sure to uncheck 'Delete Temporary Images...' if the process fails and ends up deleting your original strips. If you keep them, you can still combine them manually in PS.
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Ah ok! Thanks for the heads up. I'll definitely run a few tests first - I've fallen into the trap of not doing so before!
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Even if you can manage so big file , how you know what printer will handle this? ) Is there printer exist for print more then 3meters in width? 150dpi is too much for banner, it's journal paper quality. You should know for that quality you need material like paper(and not cheap), what is fragile for this size list, so banner material can't take that quality because it was made to be more stronger
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They usually print in strips and then assemble them. The biggest printer I've seen was only able to print in 3.5m strips.
What you could do is find out what dimensions the printer prints its strips in and then render your files at the same seams. honestly for a banner that size I would render at 30-50 ppi then just upscale it to what they are asking for.
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This is one of the instances where the customer isnt right haha.
If their signage company is printing at 150dpi for an image that big then the signage company is taking them for a ride.
We print flexface fabric panels that cover entire warehouse sides and the images are usually about 10,000px maximum.
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Tell them it will cost £15k to render it. They'll soon change their mind. Also something that size, you'd get away with 12dpi lol. The distance it's intended to be viewed at, you'd never notice the difference.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CIpu4Wa.png)
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The way I handle ignorant clients requesting resolutions that make no sense...
Render at half or even 1/3, then scale in photoshop.
I find that a huge number of designers don't understand what DPI means. And ask for 300 DPI images as if it meant something on its own.
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Yes it seems like it is excessive!
I've tried several tests and my machine keeps crashing out when I try to stop the render in the VFB. Whether I click stop - to begin the denoise - or cancel, 3ds Max crashes. This is at 10k pixels.
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Any extra channel (Masks, elements and extra channels that the denoiser uses) will take up extra memory, how much depends on the type of element (high or low dynamic). If max crashes, it's probably due to RAM limit, and you could try to minimize RAM consumption by getting rid of extra elements (you can render them out later without rendering the main image maybe) and avoiding denoising. If you know the render settings are good you can also disable the VFB (which will stop it from allocating memory for the display buffer), render, save and view the render in an external program.
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I don't understand why everytime someone comes with a question about a massive render, the general opinion is that the client is stupid.
They may want to see a huge image from a foot away. It's not about ignorance. It's about money.
As someone above said, charge higher. $1 per pixel? 90000px = $90000
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This might help you.
https://topazlabs.com/ai-gigapixel/?utm_source=Topaz+Updates&utm_campaign=a39ca50223-AI_Gigapixel_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5e4dd8652a-a39ca50223-90364373&mc_cid=a39ca50223&mc_eid=a237073fa9
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Render at 640x480 and then resize in photoshop?
The client clearly doesn't understand DPI and resolution based on viewing distance.
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I've done 4x5m banners, and the client insisted on 150 dpi. Problem was they asked for this AFTER I had already made the images in normal print resolution (6x4k px) with hundreds of layers and stuff.
I scaled the images up in Photoshop, to the desired resolution. Client was happy that the file has "150dpi" when they look at it in PS, and the prints look great.
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Well thanks for the tips guys! I’ve disabled all but the most necessary render elements and also purged the scene down to the main components required for this specific view.
I do agree about the unecessary desire for a high dpi when it is not needed at this scale, and I think I’ll render lower res and upscale. Lolec - that Gigapixel software looks very interesting and I’ll try it out. Thanks!
Also agreed that these client demands are an opportunity to charge accordingly - it can be a win / win.
I’ll report back on how this goes next week.
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You may use PhotoZoom Pro with s-spline interpolation, this is best up-scaling method for photos imho
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Well, to report back on this:
In the end I split the image into tiles and rendered each at 10,000 px long using Max's blowup function, combined them in PS and upscaled the whole thing to the ridiculous 90k. I tried upscaling in AI Gigapixel (which is brilliant for quality by the way) and also Photozoom, but they both could not deal with the vast original file size for some reason. So I used PS's upscaling algorithms and it all looked rather fine in the end. Although even opening and working with the 90k px file was pushing it for my machine. Even with an upgraded 128GB RAM!
D.
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Hah, thanks for the update! I'm curious to see what the final file size was in the end.
Was the client happy in the end?
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I gave them a flattened .PSB (had to be PSB not PSD) file which was 17GB and also split the final it into nine .TIFF tiles for their graphic designer to reassemble - each 800MB each.
They were happy in the end! It's going to be hung high on the outside of a showroom building apparently, so nobody will ever inspect it up close! But the guys hanging it up there will be impressed by the pixel clarity, no doubt.
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hm, it still shouldnt be possible to have more than 65k bitmap in 3dsmax, even in theory with infinite RAM... I have to actually try it one day :D
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Just curious... Is it possible to use mipmaps with corona?
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hm, it still shouldnt be possible to have more than 65k bitmap in 3dsmax, even in theory with infinite RAM... I have to actually try it one day :D
Ondra, do you mean it shouldn't be possible to render anything larger than 65k px? I hit RAM limitations way before that, which necessitated the 10k px tiles.
D.
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I had the same problem ALL the time when we had to send banner images to the print-shop. Anything more then 60dpi for > 3meter banners is rediculous. Try 40dpi even. Who looks at a 3meter banner at 150DPI quality??? That's like observing the banner from 50cm away like you would look at an A3 format render.
Those print shop pple are sometimes annoyingly wrong. And the client doesn't know so they just follow whatever sounds best. Frustrating aye!
Check what your standard high rez output is, mine for clients is 4000 pixels cause it's a good in between solution for alot of output sizes:
4000pixels is 33cm on 300DPI= good for A3, A4, A5
4000pixels is 68cm on 150DPI= good for ACAD plans or small posters
4000pixels is 142cm on 72DPI= for computer screens or larger posters (not banners)
4000pixels is 340cm on 30DPI= good for large banners
if you really need to go larger:
6000pixels is 510cm on 30DPI= good for large banners
8000pixels is 680cm on 30DPI= good for large banners
10000pixels is 845cm on 30DPI= good for large banners
12000 pixels is 1020cm on 30CPI= good for large banners
I don't even go over 4000pixels rendering until the banner size is larger then 500cm on it's longest side.
Print shop pple, although it's their damn job, recieve photo's from photographers for designer stores etc on 300DPI or 600DPI in 4000pixels cause the camera's simply shoot that high, if not higher. I'm sure these are amateur-Nikon-camera sizes.
They don't understand how rendering works. They lazy ;)
Grts