First renders - Paris apartment early previews

[Juraj]

Edit: This project has since been finished and can be seen here: http://talcikdemovicova.com/classic-apartment-by-jessica-vedel/ or here :- )

[click to see higher res]




















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I've pondered the idea of trying out new renderer for quite some time. 2 years ago, when I first began with 3D, I actually started with Octane beta, no idea how I came across it istead of Vray. I still remember the comfortable workflow but my scenes quickly outgrew gpu vram capacity.

Well, turning point came this week, after spending close to 60 hours, trying to come up with best "visual quality" scenarion in Vray, which is BruteForce, SubPixelOff,ClampOff, and even though I ended up conquering it, it cost me lot of frustration and I just didn't like the look that much for so much effort. I desperately expected bit more.

Other solutions I qucikly looked through included Maxwell and Arion. Maxwell doesn't even have damn converter and it would deferred me completely from animation territory. I still wanted same renderer for stills and animations. Arion does have converter, but not even damn forum and same problem with animations, on top of that, mostly oriented towards GPU.

So all in all out, Corona, which I honestly didn't put much faith in ( I am very sceptic person...). But damn my ego, I was so wrong.

The installation, converting my scene in one touch of button and pressing render took less than 5 minutes, and after 5 minutes of default PT+PT 16 I already enjoyed satisfaction of what I saw.

Edit: Duh, I only briefly studied manual yesterday, and since I am mostly after visual quality, times be damned, this is 4k (3840x1800px), rendered using PT+PT and 64 samples. I let it render overnight, although it looked pretty good after 3 hours, this one is saved after 12. The only post done is slight glow from MagicBullet Looks.

It is lit completely using custom HDRi in environment (can't be seen, the outside is 3D geometry as well), and very weak softbox behind camera using Corona Light. No portal lights.

Well, my second render is done now and I am beyond satisfied !! That's the results I was looking for. I love the subtle noise and little shadow detail all-around. Also, in-render DOF !

It's 100mil poly scene so far, this time only with HDRi, windows are far away. 7680px, full unbiased PT+PT, 16 samples only now, MaxInt. 0. Super super satisfied. It took 30GB ram, (it was 18 at 3840px, so it does seem to scale quite a lot). Not sure if I should keep Internal res=2 even if I go to such high res like this ? I do plan to render 8k most of my renders.

Well I am happy. I no longer need to worry about rendering, and go back to actual work. Lot's of modeling ahead, but my mind is at peace.

I think Corona will truly be revolution !

[ecximer]

Fast start and a good result.
Welcome to our sect ... :)
Still, I would advise to use the portals to the window and the engine PT + HDCache. Will be cleaner and faster at times.

[Ludvik Koutny]

Yes, as pointed above me, there are numerous ways to optimize rendering further. Try to set secondary GI to HDcache. Also, since lighting is not complex, you don't need 64 PT samples, default of 16 will work just fine.

I am not sure if portals are available with Alpha V4, but they will definitely be available in Alpha V5 which is coming soon. Alternatively, you can ask Keymaster to provide you with access to nightly builds to get Alpha V5 RC version.

Lastly, a general advice is to never put real solid glass in windows. Just make window glass just one polygon (no thickness) and apply glass with twosided mode on it. You will get glass in windows with nearly no effect on performance.

[Ondra]

[Juraj]

Hi Rawa,

the glass panels are hidden :- ) they wouldn't be much visible anyway. I am only concerned about accuracy of GI, so I would like to keep using only path tracing for stills like these, and LC for animations or simpler modern scenes.

As for the samples, what actually happens between the different numbers ? Does it affect the result visually ?

As I said, optimizing times is not important at all. We have dual-octacore Xeon machines and i7 SBe, and when DB will come, quite a lot of cores (64) available too. I only wish for the best visual quality, everything is, is not important for me.

Daily build could be cool, but if Alpha 5 is around the corner, maybe it doesn't matter :- ). I wanted to experiment with Bidir, but it ignored my clipping planes so I couldn't compare it. I don't see portal lights, though I see PortalLightMaterial which I applied to geo. Will see how it goes.

[maru]

Fantastic render! It's cool how it takes so little time to learn Corona. I can't imagine what happens after it gets even better...

[Juraj]

My sentiments. I have bit of grudge against learning even though I am quite fast then, I dread the start. Even installing Windows bothers me these times.
I used Vray for 2 years, and each month, I've redone my workflow and settings, always found "better" way to do things. I wasted so much time...for what.

But I was really suprised how easy and straight-forward everything was. Much easier to teach others who work with me too !

[Polymax]

Very good! And very fast to learn!

[Juraj]

One more thing I love :- D Might not seem like big catch, but for me it is. The material preview ! Which actually really corresponds to what I get in render. Even better that it is directly integrated into Max mat editor, and not some new weird obscure UI on top of everything like every other renderer. The clean integration within Max is what makes this such and effortless experience.

I am really charmed, feels better than first date.

[Ondra]

I am really charmed, feels better than first date.

then get the latest daily build. It is better than sex :D

[Ludvik Koutny]

I still think that very slight difference between PT+PT and PT+HD does not justify the rendertime difference. Maybe for personal projects, but if you ever have to race deadline, it's not worth it. I suggest you try both. Make one PT+PT render, then switch secondary gi to HDcache, increase settings a bit (PT samples in HDcache to 2048 for example) and then try to compare look of both renders.

I think you will be surprised ;)

Other things like portals do not affect quality of render at all, they just simply speed it up ;)

[Juraj]

I will play big time with every possibility there is, I am systematic and curious enough :- ). But time is really not important in this project, even if fully unbiased will provide 2-3perc. better image, I am all for it.

I must say the rotating smilie more than enough supplements that need to watch buckets go away. Even without buckets, the screen is still magnetizing.


Well, I off to beer, but I gave up rendering another preview. 8k px, pt+pt,  and DOF, really wonder what's gonna happen ! So far looks great

[Ondra]

btw to get true unbiased result you must also set max sample intensity to 0

[Juraj]

Yes, I have it set that way :- ) Made the effort to read the manual (and every topic on forum too) yesterday

[Polymax]

You can also try set diffuse level of white wall to 0.7-0.8 (value=255) to get more contrast.

[Juraj]

You can also try set diffuse level of white wall to 0.7-0.8 (value=255) to get more contrast.

What kind of contrast ? I have my whites always around 180-190 RGB since I adopted LWF. But this shot is kind of bland because I over-did the softbox I think. Anyway, I am always on quest how to do proper wall plaster. I had slight succes with the "roughness" value in Vray, which no one seems to use. I am curious to hear more from you

But the numbers driving values in materials are still a bit mystery to me, since I am used only for Color and Maps.

[Stan_But]

very good start!

[Ondra]

But the numbers driving values in materials are still a bit mystery to me, since I am used only for Color and Maps.

It just multiplies the color/texture.  If you leave them at 1 it will behave exactly as vray.

[Ludvik Koutny]

The numbers are the means of controlling reflection/refraction and such...

It basically sets what white value of the bitmap represents. So if you have reflectivity of 0,5, it means that white point on the bitmap plugged into reflection color will represent reflectivity of 0,5.

I think it is a bit more intuitive (it's that way in mental ray for example) because color does not necessarily control your both color and intensity of the effect.

Prime example is when i wanted to create scratched copper vase in Corona and Vray. Copper has tinted reflection color... In Corona, i simply put my scratches texture as reflection map so i got variance on reflections, and then set reflection color to orange-ish as copper would look. But in Vray, as there is only one slot, i actually had to mix my scratches texture with color texture using bitmaps, and then control both reflectivity of scratch texture and reflection color in a quite counter-intuitive manner.

And, as Keymaster pointed above me already, if you want it to behave like Vray, then you just set them at 1, and then color will fully control the effect.

[Juraj]

Thank you guys for explaining, all clear now :- ) It does make sense with the tint example and I see how it can make tweaking certain materials easier.

Well, my second render is done now and I am beyond satisfied !! That's the results I was looking for. I love the subtle noise and little shadow detail all-around. Also, in-render DOF !

It's 100mil poly scene so far, this time only with HDRi, windows are far away. 7680px, full unbiased PT+PT, 16 samples only now, MaxInt. 0. Super super satisfied. It took 30GB ram, (it was 18 at 3840px, so it does seem to scale quite a lot). Not sure if I should keep Internal res=2 even if I go to such high res like this ? I do plan to render 8k most of my renders.

Well I am happy. I no longer need to worry about rendering, and go back to actual work. Lot's of modeling ahead, but my mind is at peace.

I think Corona will truly be revolution !



Another cool stuff I found, it's fully unclamped. So there really is no trick or anything. Clean AA and unclamped, something impossible in Vray.

[Juraj]

I am getting different light contrast with HDCache+PT, HD paths 4096, PT 16 compared to PT+PT 16. It seems to be brighter, and more even, I don't like it that much compared to unbiased result, I am not sure if it's me having setup something wrong. When I'll have some time, I'll let the two identical renders cook for whole night and compared to what sort of GI will they arive. But for now, I am sticking purely to PT+PT, which I love.

I have question about the glass, I do see the advice to use single plane, but what if I would like to see double-glazed glass (two glass panes 10 cm from each other in distance), should I still use 2 single poly planes ? Can two-sided glass showcase true reflection ? And how much of burden is thick glass ? esp. two panes of thick glass :- ).

[michaltimko]

Nice renders...and welcome ;)
I remember our conversation about corona sometime around january. Im glad, that your ego was defeated by ponies ;)

[Ondra]

I have question about the glass, I do see the advice to use single plane, but what if I would like to see double-glazed glass (two glass panes 10 cm from each other in distance), should I still use 2 single poly planes ? Can two-sided glass showcase true reflection ? And how much of burden is thick glass ? esp. two panes of thick glass :- ).

Use 2 planes with single face 10 cm apart with thin glass mode. If you use thick glass then sun or very sharp HDRI won't work. If you use only diffuse environment, then it doesnt matter. In daily builds/A5 there is third option for glass, hybrid, that will give you correct shadows and works with sun

[cecofuli]

I've the same problem with Corona Frame butter. With res > 3K or 4K it eats a lot of RAM (too much). Ondra knows this and it has to rebuilt the entire FB. You car reduce the int res to 1, but you could have some problem with bright edges (like with Color mapping on in VRay) . Int res =  1 double the real resolution inside corona. This is why it eats so much RAM.

[Juraj]

Yes, thanks Michal ! Corona is indeed quite what I did not expect.

Hi Cecofuli, saw your frustration in Chaos forum "All about noise thread". I've re-read that thread 5 times back and forth in my own pursuit of ultimate brute force settings for high-end interiors.


I'm very much enjoying the in-render DOF, I think I can finally keep it ticked-on constantly. I had some exteriors tests already too, and it was breeze ! But I expected that, even Maxwell was very fast in exteriors. Funny thing, I noticed the converter even switched VrayDirt for CoronaAO, which isn't yet much advanced, but did some trick too ! Nice. Now I'll wait for normal maps.

[Ludvik Koutny]

I would not rely on Mat converter, especially when it comes to Vray>Corona. It is good for quick tests, but if you go for quality, you will have to do some manual clean up afterwards. Not everything will convert 1:1 ;)

That being said, DeadClown has done some amazing job on it, so sometimes it is really surprising how well it works :)

[Juraj]

I like that material is so "regular", and seems closer to ArchDesign shader (translucency and corners, nice). I could not stand Maxwell materials, I did not understand single value, everything seemed like complete science. Absolutely bothersome, I had trouble initially even coming up with specular mat. I like simple things. The simpler, the better.

[racoonart]

I would not rely on Mat converter, especially when it comes to Vray>Corona. It is good for quick tests, but if you go for quality, you will have to do some manual clean up afterwards. Not everything will convert 1:1 ;)

That's unfortunately true. I tried to do it the best way I could but since VRay is doing some things in non-explicit ways (fog, translucency) it's not always possible to get good results (Arch&Design material was way easier to do).

Funny thing, I noticed the converter even switched VrayDirt for CoronaAO, which isn't yet much advanced, but did some trick too ! Nice. Now I'll wait for normal maps.

I'm trying to convert all those third-party maps which would break the render (VrayDirt, VrayColor, ...). Normal maps will be implemented when Alpha5 is released. Keymaster did implement a corona normal map in the daily builds already :) .

[Juraj]

I salute you for great effort :- ) Converter is literally deal-breaker for many people, me included. With the giant amount of assets I have on my drives, last thing I want is start from scratch.
Keymaster already invited me for daily build, and I will do so at the end of this week.

[michaltimko]

Last image needs burn value to be set to 6+ (im always using 99 ). Try.

[Juraj]

Sorry sorry, I digress :- ) Burnt, and low-light is requested by client, and I love strong burnouts too :- ) They bring life.

Here is example of her work and photography. But maybe I overdid it ? It's tough balance..




That said, I will try it. But since the output is fully unclamped, is there reason not to do it in post ? I do not liked colormapping in Vray much, and kept it fully linear with adaptation to adjust light balance in MagicBullet.

Thank you Michal for advice

[Ludvik Koutny]

The interior on that photo is a bit darker than yours, so naturally there is a bit more contrast, and it even seems to be exaggerated in post. In case of you renders, the white burn is the first thing that comes to mind as wrong, when i look at the renders ;)

[Juraj]

The burn is very controversial thing and is a lot taste-based. I don't want to excuse myself it's indeed too much :- D But I do I prefer it a lot, even if it comes across wrong for quite most people.

My biggest inspiration is Yellows photography. http://yellows.dk/ It's one of the most high-end scandinavian interior photographers, and I am very jealous of their work and would love to attain similar level one day in digital domain.



Just trying to explain :- D All in good faith, I do write down the opinions :- ) And value them guys


Rawa, mine is modified in post too :- ) It's not that overburn in Corona Framebuffer. I have difuse glow, and strong softlight in PS.

[Ludvik Koutny]

The reason some looks good and your looks weird is that you are missing the secondary photographic effects such exposure would produce. As long as you are working with realistic exposure, there will often be some burned areas, and i am all for it, but if they appear there, you got to make sure to add those secondary effects too ;)

[Juraj]

Sure ! Which ones do you have in mind ? Any help there is greatly appreciated. I do try to add subtle glows to highlights, but for other things, I am bit lost.

[Ondra]

That said, I might try it. But since the output is fully unclamped, is there reason not to do it in post ? I do not liked colormapping in Vray much, and kept it fully linear with adaptation to adjust light balance in MagicBullet.

There is no reason why to do post in Corona other than it is easier and you get interactive preview during rendering. But sometimes you would need to render to higher resolution and downsize after tone mapping to simulate the effect of internal res 2.

[Ludvik Koutny]

Sure ! Which ones do you have in mind ? Any help there is greatly appreciated. I do try to add subtle glows to highlights, but for other things, I am bit lost.

I'd personally say mostly some glow...

[Juraj]

That said, I might try it. But since the output is fully unclamped, is there reason not to do it in post ? I do not liked colormapping in Vray much, and kept it fully linear with adaptation to adjust light balance in MagicBullet.

There is no reason why to do post in Corona other than it is easier and you get interactive preview during rendering. But sometimes you would need to render to higher resolution and downsize after tone mapping to simulate the effect of internal res 2.

Thank you for answer, I see about the AA.

Great advice guys, it's cool such small forum is busy and not left ignored by devs. But now go back to work :- ) ! I am doing too much discussing again. Need to model stuff and go back to enjoyable part again on wednesday.


Rawa: Nice !! Thanks. I am always afraid not to overdo glows, what settings did you use if I can ask ? Esp. since you were able to do so in tonemapped jpeg !

[Ludvik Koutny]

Rawa: Nice !! Thanks. I am always afraid not to overdo glows, what settings did you use if I can ask ?

I have no idea :D, i just usually magicwand select burned areas in PS, fill them with some subtle blue for where sky is, and yellow where sun impacts, then blur those on new layers, and then apply them over using linear dodge (add) and tweak a little :) There is sooo many ways :)

[Juraj]

I guess I've become too lazy with MagicBullet as my only solution. I wish too much for one-click solutions, and dread manual post.

[Juraj]

Something funny is going on with I presume bump maps. Occasionally, checker patterns shows on some objects with mentioned material. Checker pattern even shows in Material editor behind ball, but I guess this isn't connected, just saying because I am confused what this can come from :- ).

What is the consensus on material filtering ? I have ALL my bitmaps set on Unfiltered, and 0.1. This gave me the best results in Vray, but does it apply here too ? I am mostly concerned about the "unfiltered" part.

The checkerboard pattern can be seen on black leather chair on right.



On second note, I've experienced bit more with HDCache, and it's indeed lightingly fast : ) Very nice, but for this project, I'll stick with PT+PT.

[michaltimko]

Nice render, but you can use WIP section tbh. ;)

ps : i see squared pattern on chair ? Probably strong bump ?

[Juraj]

Nice render, but you can use WIP section tbh. ;)

ps : i see squared pattern on chair ? Probably strong bump ?

Yes, that's what I asked, but I use quite lowish number, never higher than 0.02 (I hope is equal to 2 in Vray numbers). Whad do you think about filtering ?

You might be right about the WIP, didn't occured to me it's here. Usually no one uses it, but now I see it's up higher from this section Well.. . I think I'll stop now and just finish the project as is :- ). Cheers

[michaltimko]

I had this "squre-noise-pattern" issue on some models from designconnected. I didnt realise why its there and how i should remove it.
Try to switch off bump and check, if its there. It might be bug related to geometry.

[Juraj]

Good you mention that, because that chair is from DesignConnected :- ) and it doesn't exactly has amazing UVWs. Funny thing is, even at same image, it doesn't show from all angles, it started happening randomly. Reading some advice here, I switched the material to filtering on, with Summer Area. But I also changed bitmap....so not exactly debug process :- ( But no time for that now..

[lamar_ray]

Hi i'm marco i notice that your work is the of Beltrand Benoit Baron Haussmann apartement, can you tell me where you have buy it?
thanks

Marco

http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2013/05/12/baron-haussmann/

[Juraj]

Hi i'm marco i notice that your work is the of Beltrand Benoit Baron Haussmann apartement, can you tell me where you have buy it?
thanks

Marco

http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2013/05/12/baron-haussmann/

Sure, from his Turbosquid space :- ) Absolutely steal deal. I bought the fireplace and facade. Here you go http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/Artists/BBB3viz?referral=BBB3viz
He even uploaded me the facade because I nicely asked. He's great guy

(Disclaimer for future readers, DO NOT, even try to ask me for "share/exchange/whatever" if that is your intention :- ) cheers )

[Ondra]

Hi,

dont have much time, so just briefly:
- checker pattern in material editor BEHIND balls is a feature, you can disable it with that show-checker-background button in max UI
- checker pattern in scene with BUMP occured in some older builds and is fixed now. Update your build to fix it!
- you will get the best results possible with as low filtering as possible, provided you don't care about time. You can globally disable filtering in devel/debug tab of corona settings (the tab has to be turned on in the about tab), BUT
- you absolutely MUST have filtering enabled for bump to work correctly! Due to the fundamental nature of the bump algorithm it requires reasonable filtering (value around 1, NOT 0.01). You can use displacement* and/or normal mapping without filtering, but NOT bump mapping!
- all of the above assumes you use the latest version that has the filtering fixed. If you still experience some problems with filtering there, report it as a bug.

* actually, filtering is ignored for displacement mapping

[Juraj]

Thank you Keymaster ! Very appreciated.

[lamar_ray]

Hi Juray,

thanks for the link,
I've seen your work and I must say that you have a beautiful touch photo, very soon will post some of my work
soon Marco

[alexisliza]

another great artist here. nice first render Juraj. maybe you can do a corona version of your white bedroom :)

[Juraj]

another great artist here. nice first render Juraj. maybe you can do a corona version of your white bedroom :)

Yea, I plan on re-rending some other works when slight bit of free time comes :- ) It's easy and fun and I love the unbiased results, actually what I wished for since I left Octane times ago !

[kubiak54]

Nice renders, welcome to corona community, looking forward for your renderings made with.

[RolandB]

Hi Juraj and thanks to the developers to offer an amazing renderer like Corona.

It seems amazing as I say, because of the great first renders of juraj, that i follow since a lot of months now.
I just for the moment have a question about lighting, because there is no options for IES lighting and target lighting. I just install Corona a few hours ago, so am I wrong ?
These words because Juraj's renders have only exterior lighting (HDRI as I read), but sometimes it is very helpful to have some more lights...
How do you do in this case ?

Thanks a lot for this post, witch is very helpful to discover and begin to use Corona.

[Juraj]

Hi Juraj and thanks to the developers to offer an amazing renderer like Corona.

It seems amazing as I say, because of the great first renders of juraj, that i follow since a lot of months now.
I just for the moment have a question about lighting, because there is no options for IES lighting and target lighting. I just install Corona a few hours ago, so am I wrong ?
These words because Juraj's renders have only exterior lighting (HDRI as I read), but sometimes it is very helpful to have some more lights...
How do you do in this case ?

Thanks a lot for this post, witch is very helpful to discover and begin to use Corona.

Hi Roland,

thank you for compliments. Regarding IES profile, they work perfectly fine with Corona, and you use them with CoronaLights, just have a closer look. I do use them, if you check my wip thread :- ) They are already in alpha5 for quite some time.