Author Topic: Discussions about people's expectations, Corona developement, life and other things  (Read 4340 times)

2021-06-10, 10:38:07
Reply #90

Ondra

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I removed the last iteration of the endless and tiring discussion. Bluebox clearly does not want to listen to anybody with different opinion and keeps being shitty and condescending to them, so I had to ban him.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-10, 14:40:53
Reply #91

lupaz

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Well, he was out of place. I hope I wasn't, and if I was I apologize.
Corona is truly great and everyone here I'm sure wishes the absolute best to the dev team.
I just can't wait to see new things.

2021-06-10, 15:59:23
Reply #92

Ondra

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Well, he was out of place. I hope I wasn't, and if I was I apologize.
Corona is truly great and everyone here I'm sure wishes the absolute best to the dev team.
I just can't wait to see new things.
You and everyone are welcome to participate, criticize, praise, and comment on Corona. The discussion just needs to stay pleasant ;)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-10, 21:13:03
Reply #93

davemahi

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Ya, I have also been less excited about Corona releases. I feel like the momentum that Corona used to have is gone, and the road map is out of step with our studios needs.

2021-06-10, 22:49:06
Reply #94

burnin

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Development usually follows S-curve and disruption has come to rendering in form of Hybrid XPUs use, AI assistance... (even light baking would be beneficial a whole lot)... still, for Corona there aren't any intentions to stay in the loop. So will it stay behind? Since at a moment it just seems getting overwhelmed, complex and confused while some fruits are already dropping off before the harvest...
IDK... I hope not.

« Last Edit: 2021-06-10, 22:53:00 by burnin »

2021-06-11, 14:16:26
Reply #95

maru

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Damn, I wanted to stay quiet here, but...
This is again what seems to be a difference in how software development looks from user point of view and "behind the scenes". If you only knew how much work is being done every day, I am sure 90% of those harsh comments would not be posted at all.

Also comparing the speed and complexity of Corona 1 development to Corona 7 development is like comparing building a house to building a city. :)

2021-06-11, 14:43:43
Reply #96

lupaz

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Damn, I wanted to stay quiet here, but...
This is again what seems to be a difference in how software development looks from user point of view and "behind the scenes". If you only knew how much work is being done every day, I am sure 90% of those harsh comments would not be posted at all.

Also comparing the speed and complexity of Corona 1 development to Corona 7 development is like comparing building a house to building a city. :)

It was how the events developed I think. The news came on a Friday, so all weekend people commenting on this without any official comments.
It took several days for a comment by Ondra to show and almost a week for a comment from you.

You're right. We have no idea how much work is needed to do this. Absolutely no idea whatsoever.



2021-06-11, 18:04:41
Reply #97

marti_d

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That comment above about the house and the city is so flawed.
If you gonna start building a city you better hire a construction company, not rely on the same three people that did your house...
Because news flash those three people will do a terrible job and it will involve a lot of problems and a lot of setbacks, also they will promise you deadlines they can not keep. Sound familiar?

2021-06-11, 18:12:45
Reply #98

TomG

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Not the meaning - the meaning is this, when you start building (creating a piece of software), all is open land and building is easy and goes fast. Once your piece of software is mature and production-ready, now LOTS of things interlock and depend on each other, making it harder to develop new features in it, especially when people rely on it for their livelihood so you can't afford to break what people are relying on.

So, building a house in an empty field is easy. Building a house in the middle of a city is hard, requires planning permission, has to account for all sorts of things around it, and has to fit and blend in, all without stopping the traffic or closing the shops :)

2021-06-11, 19:20:14
Reply #99

hldemi

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I wonder if there is gonna be the end one day. End of new features. How far can we go. Will there be anything that can make revolution in photorealism since some authors already crossed the uncanny valley of photorealism with existing software. Is all thats left some Qol improvements and speed improvements.

Sorry for being offtopic but this got me thinking.

2021-06-11, 19:59:41
Reply #100

lolec

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That comment above about the house and the city is so flawed.
If you gonna start building a city you better hire a construction company, not rely on the same three people that did your house...
Because news flash those three people will do a terrible job and it will involve a lot of problems and a lot of setbacks, also they will promise you deadlines they can not keep. Sound familiar?

I struggle to understand how someone could be so out of touch with reality that they will tell the people actually DOING the thing "what you say is flawed"  How would you know more than them? Can you imagine I come to your work and after looking around for 10 minutes I start telling you that what you are doing is wrong? After you've spent years doing that?

The problem with analogies is that they only work on people who already agree with the premise in the first place but criticizing the analogy is absurd... Yes software is also not made of bricks... yes, software doesn't need streetlights.  Obviously, corona 1 is not EXACTLY like a house and corona 7 is not EXACTLY like a city.  But as Tom said, Corona 1 had to worry about much less things than Corona 7.

I hate forum arguments, I know they don't convince anyone, I know I look as much as a fool as the people who disagree with me. I know I look like a mindless fanboy.

I'm not doing this to convince anyone.

I know exactly what it takes to build products, I know how hard it is and discouraging it is to read comments like the ones we've seen in the forum lately. I'm also very familiar with the frustration of working your ass off for a year and not being able to say exactly what you think because as creators, you need to keep composture.

Reading some of Ondra, Maru and Tom comments, it's clear that the negativity is getting to them, enough for them to break character and express their disappointment.

My only goal is to offset the negativity and make the dev team feel a little less crappy.

Corona is a fucking brilliant piece of software. I see and appreciate the little details that go into that.  A product is much more about what It DOESN'T have than what it DOES HAVE. Corona is brilliant at not adding stuff, I know this will only be understood by a handful of people and will be seen as crazy talk by the rest. Hopefully, the dev team will smile knowing that every time I use Corona, I appreciate all the things it doesn't have. I even appreciate that it doesn't have Tonemapping YET, because doing great things take time. 

Many people say they decided to move to Corona because of the features mentioned in the roadmap, not only do I highly doubt that, but also it's a terrible decision. Personally, I didn't choose Corona because of the current or future features, but the ideology and principles behind it.  These principles guide all future decisions. The same people that decided to do all the things you love about Corona, decided to move tonemapping to V8, it is reasonable to expect that you will end up loving that decision too. Just be patient.

Thanks again for the decisions you make, I hope you have the resources you need to fulfill your vision and that you don't get discouraged. Thanks for making hard decisions, this shows real love for the product, and when a product is made with love, it makes a difference.

Looking forward to v8!






2021-06-11, 20:09:52
Reply #101

marti_d

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Now let me tell you in just a few words because I don't need a wall of text to make my point. Corona 1 was simpler so a smaller team is ok. Corona 7 is complex, again I understand that but after the merger with Chaos people expected the team to grow and be able to deal with the complex stuff. Making the argument that just because something is more complex you can't deal with it is this time not OK.
Nothing against the team of developers or anybody but as I said the example with the house was not the best one.

As everyone in here, I do have the best of intentions towards corona as a product and I feel it's ok for everyone to share be it negative or positive points of view.
It's up to the corona team at the end of the day to make a final decision. Let's not forget the most requested feature on the forums is hybrid rendering but the team is against that. Who knows maybe after a few more years that will change or again it will not it's not for us to decide. As users all we can give is feedback but it's up to the team to see if they can make that feedback work or not.
And if people really don't like the team's decisions some will move away. That's just how things are.

2021-06-11, 21:05:55
Reply #102

lupaz

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My only goal is to offset the negativity and make the dev team feel a little less crappy.


I wouldn't call it negativity but expressing frustration. There's nothing wrong with that and at a certain point it could be necessary.

Look at 3Ds Max for example. Years of extremely punishing comments everywhere by so many users, some more vocal than others.
But you know what, for a couple of years now things started to improve in the 3ds max team. The change came with the frustration that the users were expressing I think.

I understood what Marti meant. If your software grows, grow the team that makes it. Easier said than done though off course.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-11, 21:11:43 by lupaz »

2021-06-11, 21:16:23
Reply #103

marti_d

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That's true everything is easy on words but as someone said we have really no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

The point that I tried to make that I also believe in is that the merger with Chaos was supposed to help in that department. Again this is my opinion and right now V-ray benefited a lot more in my opinion by having access to the coronas single-handedly best feature: the light mixer.
So talks about how the team was understaffed and was not prepared to deal with the new bigger and more complex version fail short in my mind since already a move was made to in theory prevent that.

Me personally what I will take out of this fiasco is to not look at the road map anymore and just test out the daily builds as they come. Coming from my gaming experience everyone loves patch notes.

2021-06-11, 22:23:43
Reply #104

lupaz

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