Author Topic: Considering switching to C4D from Max, looking for feedback…  (Read 2787 times)

2023-07-31, 02:28:22

danio1011

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Hello!  I do primarily arch viz stills and short films for a handful of regular clients.  I've been in business for 6 years or so.  Prior to that I used 3ds max as an architect and prior to that I used it as a student.  So I've been on the platform since 2009 or so.

Anyhow, I have heard a number of good things about Cinema4D and I like some of the features I see.  I've also been unimpressed with some aspects of Autodesk, from client relations, to speed of development, and stability and performance in larger arch viz exteriors.  Long story short, I'm tentatively exploring the ramifications of switching platforms to C4D while staying on Corona.  I'd need to find swaps for:  Forest pack, Railclone, my current snow plugin, bercontiles, and a handful of others.  And of course I would lose the advantage of my long term experience with Max.

Does anyone have a similar experience?  Or perhaps just feedback of Cinema4D stability\performance vs 3ds Max?  I'm a one man show, so switching wouldn't be insane but I’d like to get some feedback from others before doing more than just poking at some simple scenes.

Thanks for any feedback!

2023-07-31, 08:12:56
Reply #1

James Vella

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Regarding plugins there's a good short list here, most of these are probably similar to ones you use currently such as floor generators, roof tiles gen, ivy gen, city gen, grass painter, forestpro/scatter (or you can use chaos scatter), forester (similar to growfx), anima (people), baluster (similar to railclone) etc.


In regards to performance in my experience I use both 3dsmax/c4d but more 3dsmax. I like c4d's interface and all but in my experience 3dsmax can handle a lot more geometry (larger scenes). 3dsmax works better with CAD files (maybe the newer versions of c4d are better I don't know I still use R19). Modelling tools are better in 3dsmax (again, maybe that's R19, I did see some new stuff for c4d modelling these days but not on top of it). Nothing really comes close to c4d's mograph tools, the animation is just fantastic to work with, the modifiers and interface is very intuitive which is one of c4d strong points.

They are pretty similar tools in my opinion (for generalists), usually you can find a way to do the same thing in both so in the end comes down to user preference, maybe do a few projects in c4d for a year and when you are comfortable with the tools you will have a better opinion on which works better for you.

2023-07-31, 09:26:31
Reply #2

Juraj

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Even back in college, 14 years ago when classmate shown me Cinema4D (our college class was learning Max) it just seemed like the same thing.

If I ever mustered the courage for switch, it would be to Blender, seems to be the fastest developing tool with plenty of plugins, easily rivalling or already surpassing Max. But that whole Corona integration weirdness..
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2023-07-31, 09:46:08
Reply #3

James Vella

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I use blender every day as well, certainly would never switch over 3dsmax. Don't get me wrong lots to love in blender but for archviz its a nightmare. Its staggeringly slow, yes it loads fast but that's about where it ends. Importing files is just painfully slow, the viewport struggles with anything larger than a living room (without user intervention). No instancing modifiers, lack of modifiers. The software updates often yet its not so easy to copy your settings across (although I did see something on this recently to make the update easier). File pathing is just horrible, anything that's deleted from the scene is kept in the scene as 'orphan data', which means you have to remove this stuff multiple times so you don't get double up's on mesh/material/texture naming. Camera settings are bonkers, there is no guess vertical, there is no way to import LUT files without scripting it into the config files etc... For me it feels like everything is too technical in blender and all the 'simple solutions' are just hacks or addons - a lot of which should just be apart of the base software.

Apart from that rant, there's some things which are great like the modelling tools, shader editor, compositor, sculpting, painting, geometry nodes, viewport - and good to see getting updated regularly.

2023-07-31, 11:16:58
Reply #4

Juraj

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That's super interesting feedback, thanks James. Sorry for detailing thread :- D

Yeah that was my feeling as well from the outside, a lot of really great tools (sculpting alone would be fantastic...) but I never liked the base environment, although I thought it was just getting too used to Max, as I found Maya or Modo just as baffling from ease of use standpoint.
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2023-07-31, 13:07:46
Reply #5

James Vella

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Yeah that was my feeling as well from the outside, a lot of really great tools (sculpting alone would be fantastic...) but I never liked the base environment, although I thought it was just getting too used to Max, as I found Maya or Modo just as baffling from ease of use standpoint.

Yeah you are not wrong, actually it kind of does relate back to this thread and that's the development cycles side of things. Its kind of a double edge sword, the fact that 3dsmax has 2 year release cycles (1 year bug fixes, small additions, 2nd year updated code base) is actually useful in production for not breaking plugins/scripts.

For example every scene I build I usually re-build in cinema4d and blender for assets that I sell. Sometimes these are as big as a living room, kitchen, etc. So getting all the camera/lights/render/displacement settings as close to 1:1 is my main goal. So back to my previous point, the first thing I tried to find in blender was camera/LUT matching (since curves/vfb settings change per render engine a custom LUT would be the quickest/easiest way to match across all software and engines (vray/corona/cycles) as curves (which is my preferred tone mapping solution isn't always able to be imported/exported). Sooo... I found an addon for blender which can do vertical matching/LUT however because the development cycle is so short it broke in the next version, people paid for it and the developer lost interest at some point and just didn't provide any support or even reply to emails. I can imagine this would happen regularly with other addons which brings me back to why I think even though its a bit painful wishing 3dsmax would develop new tools faster, having a slower dev time actually keeps functionality longer term, without changing too much of the inner code without breaking plugins this is a positive in my view, and this is where I see problems in blender. I rather have some continuity to my pipeline, especially when clients are paying me than be trying to figure out why things don't work as they should or they just decide to remove/change things because they can - this is my definition of 'too technical'. When I'm often looking for a button in blender ill watch a video from 6 months ago, that button is gone, and now you do it a new way and the documentation is often not helpful or lacking in detail. 3dsmax/c4d documentation is actually much better in my opinion. Vray probably has some of the best documentation I've read, I wish more companies would follow their path.

Just some food for thought, I think c4d now does half year releases but not sure at what point they change underlying functionality. However my hunch is Maxon have a pretty good understanding of these topics and I've rarely come across any major issues with pipeline breakages. I've even used plugins that are years old and they just work (not always but that would be 100% impossible in 3dsmax for example and certainly not in blender).

Always keen to hear other peoples thoughts on this too, I prefer not to think in a vacuum and I could always be wrong and happy to be so if you can alleviate my pain in some regards.

Another plus for c4d is scripting in python, its probably the easiest environment to automate/script for as 3dsmax's listener often hides things which can be a pain to hunt down if you don't know how to find that thing, where as python in c4d is quite straight forward. 

2023-07-31, 18:16:16
Reply #6

BigAl3D

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I have zero time with Max, but I will say going from C4D r20 to r25 was a very noticeable snappiness in working with larger scenes. I don't don't how it compares to other apps that are know to handle large scenes well, but I think comparing r19 to current stuff doesn't work too well. I have yet to try r2023 so it may have improved even more. The fact that you're on Windows is even better, as us Mac users tend to suffer slower response with large scenes.

2023-08-02, 17:26:49
Reply #7

danio1011

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Wow this is all fantastic feedback, thank you all so much.  That's a very helpful video, as well.  Seems like there are viable alternatives to most\all of the plugins I currently use.  I still haven't fully wrapped my head around mograph but what I've seen makes it look pretty cool.  Max has been 'OK' for our animations but scrubbing the timeline is so chunky sometimes it'll drive you a little nuts.

A friend of mine who does non-archviz is always talking about Blender so it's good to know that's a non starter.  I think I'll pull the C4D thread a little more, it would be nice to get away from Max for a variety of reasons.

Thanks again, all!

2023-08-02, 17:41:02
Reply #8

James Vella

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I still haven't fully wrapped my head around mograph but what I've seen makes it look pretty cool.

Yup, it is cool! Its also super intuitive to use. I was doing some pretty intense things in Houdini for 2 years and then it really went deep and kind of lost me. I found I can do basically similar things in cinema4d with just mograph and its just so much more simple and fun. Here is some cool little projects in mograph if you are interested.


Max has been 'OK' for our animations but scrubbing the timeline is so chunky sometimes it'll drive you a little nuts.

The viewport speed in cinema4d for animation is just blazing fast, its probably my favorite software for animating things or just messing around with music animations etc. I mean now 3dsmax has tyflow its quite good for similar things but yeah I know what you mean about scrubbing the timeline in 3dsmax.




2023-08-02, 23:27:36
Reply #9

davetwo

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I work with lots of CAD from industrial designers (usually stp) and C4D handes it really well since R21.
Never used Max, but it certainly beats the other apps I'd tried for that.

2023-08-06, 21:29:06
Reply #10

Stefan-L

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@danio1011: 
for perfect rhino3d (and overall cad import via rhino3d) i recommend the "rhino.io" c4d plugin , we open all 2d and 3d cad files form clients via rhino and rhinoio directly.
and for all type of great and complex tiles surfaces the "Tile Pro" c4d plugin, it is like Bercon tile on max but A LOT more powerful than Bercon.  It works native in Corona.

We made them for our Corona and C4D use, also quite many other c4d users use them for archviz. We always make tools that we feel miss yet in c4d for our work.

both and some ore useful you can find at the shop https://3dtools.info/dna-plugins-01/

overall i do archviz since 20 years on c4d, if yu have a Q just send me a message or ask me here

« Last Edit: 2023-08-06, 21:38:10 by Stefan-L »

2023-08-07, 02:45:29
Reply #11

danio1011

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Thanks Stefan and all, this is a treasure trove of info and those are some impressive plugins. 

Honestly the biggest thing I am running into is bringing in Max models to C4D.  I have a large Connector library and only some of my models have universal formats like fbx and obj, many are just max. Curious if any of you all have recommendations there, especially if I totally ditch the max license thus losing the ability to export out.  Not a deal breaker but would be nice to keep my model library as useful as possible.

2023-08-07, 09:28:31
Reply #12

James Vella

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Since most of my models on file originally are made in vray I use a few scripts to bring my 3dsmax models directly into c4d.

The process is currently, convert 3dsmax vray materials to fbx compatible (has to be roughness/metal workflow):
https://github.com/jmdvella/3dsmax-scripts/blob/main/JV_VrayRoughnessToFBX.ms

export to fbx, import into c4d, then either convert to Vray for c4d:
https://github.com/jmdvella/cinema4d-scripts/blob/main/JV_FBXMaterialsToVray.py

or Corona for c4d:
https://github.com/jmdvella/cinema4d-scripts/blob/main/JV_FBXMaterialsToCorona.py

An additional script I wrote which may be obsolete in later versions of c4d below.

Flip X/Y that gets baked in from 3dsmax (make sure the object is reset xform first):
https://github.com/jmdvella/cinema4d-scripts/blob/main/JV_FlipYZAxis.py


2023-08-07, 14:43:45
Reply #13

Stefan-L

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H Danio,

glad you like my plugins:)

"Honestly the biggest thing I am running into is bringing in Max models to C4D. "

For conversion from max i use a plugin from another guy, called "max2c4d". it is far from perfect but still for me at least the closest i found and in many cases it works pretty ok.
i convert all my assets from max to c4d that way. i prefer it over fbx as it keeps Corona and vray materials and converts them, to c4d corona. Sometimes it makes errors, but most things come over ok, in end it saves me many hours of work:

https://www.3dtoall.com/products/maxtoc4d/

i will also look as James' py scrips, didnt know them,
« Last Edit: 2023-08-07, 14:54:19 by Stefan-L »

2023-08-07, 14:45:53
Reply #14

Beanzvision

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