Author Topic: Discussions about people's expectations, Corona developement, life and other things  (Read 19136 times)

2021-06-05, 15:18:21
Reply #15

bluebox

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Edit 2: And let's be honest, who thought they could do a new physical material AND a new tone mapper for the same version?

They said they will. People might or not make decisions based on that. If they do not introduce new tonemapper then what the hell took 10 months here ? Half the new sky system was done in previous release. Not taking into account mat library as this is not coding. That leaves us with displacement optimizations and basically new shader.

v8 release is expected in Q1 2022, that potentialy leaves the door open for people that need a stable environment and can't fiddle with dailies to get the new tonemapping in worst case scenario in march 2022 ? It is another  9 months from here ! Wrapping up almost two years !

Edit: On the other hand we're getting Aerial perspective and an improved sun & sky model, which I haven't seen yet but hope it will be great.

Awesome reasoning. I ordered a Mercedes, they deliver Dacia for a few months as a substitute. Well nothing happened, it still has wheels right ?
Not to mention that Reworking tonemapping is next to GPU/hybrid and new shader voted as the top 3 most wanted features in the forum.

hi,
I am a little bit  surprised by this strong demand for improvement of "tone mapping". I'll be curious if a lot of people use Vray's new "ACES" workflow which seems like a gas factory to me. I do not really believe in ready-made solutions because what matters in the end are the images produced ... After obviously all improvements are welcome but I do not believe too much in the revolution of "tone mapping" for the architectural image ... but that's just my point of view ...

mienda

totally agree. anyway task
"do absolutely the whole post-process"  in Frame Buffer
I personally find it completely unrealistic and unnecessary because there will always be certain applications that make more accurate corrections and post-processing. yes of course it can make the work easier also in post-processing and possibly get a more attractive look, but what has been done now in Vray in this direction is just ridiculous. just try to play with all these bells and whistles with a resolution of 8-k in Frame Buffer with huge heavy scene in 3dmax/[:

And this advocating in form of "why do we need that feature, it can be done in other software"... Sure it can, but imagine a situation where you render dozens of images per project and you need to provide absolute consistency. Why would I import it to other external software to do postprocesing when I can do it straight in the VFB and not waste any more time ?
This workflow is as valid as the one with postpro in external soft. Your arguments are not in any way superior.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-05, 15:44:09 by bluebox »

2021-06-05, 15:46:24
Reply #16

scionik

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Yeah, we could use another software, vray for example?

2021-06-05, 16:00:23
Reply #17

bluebox

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Yeah, we could use another software, vray for example?

Checked Fstorm group on facebook yesterday. Tempting. One-man army developing on ridiculous pace.

2021-06-05, 17:57:49
Reply #18

alexyork

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2021-06-05, 21:11:30
Reply #19

denisgo22

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Edit 2: And let's be honest, who thought they could do a new physical material AND a new tone mapper for the same version?

They said they will. People might or not make decisions based on that. If they do not introduce new tonemapper then what the hell took 10 months here ? Half the new sky system was done in previous release. Not taking into account mat library as this is not coding. That leaves us with displacement optimizations and basically new shader.

v8 release is expected in Q1 2022, that potentialy leaves the door open for people that need a stable environment and can't fiddle with dailies to get the new tonemapping in worst case scenario in march 2022 ? It is another  9 months from here ! Wrapping up almost two years !

Edit: On the other hand we're getting Aerial perspective and an improved sun & sky model, which I haven't seen yet but hope it will be great.

Awesome reasoning. I ordered a Mercedes, they deliver Dacia for a few months as a substitute. Well nothing happened, it still has wheels right ?
Not to mention that Reworking tonemapping is next to GPU/hybrid and new shader voted as the top 3 most wanted features in the forum.

hi,
I am a little bit  surprised by this strong demand for improvement of "tone mapping". I'll be curious if a lot of people use Vray's new "ACES" workflow which seems like a gas factory to me. I do not really believe in ready-made solutions because what matters in the end are the images produced ... After obviously all improvements are welcome but I do not believe too much in the revolution of "tone mapping" for the architectural image ... but that's just my point of view ...

mienda

totally agree. anyway task
"do absolutely the whole post-process"  in Frame Buffer
I personally find it completely unrealistic and unnecessary because there will always be certain applications that make more accurate corrections and post-processing. yes of course it can make the work easier also in post-processing and possibly get a more attractive look, but what has been done now in Vray in this direction is just ridiculous. just try to play with all these bells and whistles with a resolution of 8-k in Frame Buffer with huge heavy scene in 3dmax/[:

And this advocating in form of "why do we need that feature, it can be done in other software"... Sure it can, but imagine a situation where you render dozens of images per project and you need to provide absolute consistency. Why would I import it to other external software to do postprocesing when I can do it straight in the VFB and not waste any more time ?
This workflow is as valid as the one with postpro in external soft. Your arguments are not in any way superior.
After Effects--for example. how they work in all normal studios.
I think also for freelancers:)
Same filters-same color grade-same compositions-same resolutions--only update image from renders--0.5 sec of working time:)besides, it never happens that your post process is 100 percent satisfied with the customer. and a lot of things that simply cannot be added to raw renders.
absolutely in any case a third-party application is used

« Last Edit: 2021-06-05, 22:27:29 by denisgo22 »

2021-06-05, 22:59:30
Reply #20

lolec

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I bet there is no one more motivated than the corona team to get tone mapping out. It really looks like they are taking it seriously and trying to do something exceptional, witch often means things taking much longer than expected.

I’m personally disappointed as a user. I would love the software to get better, specially in ways that we don’t need to guess weather they are better or not, as other renderers have implemented them and people love them. 

People arguing that tone mapping is not needed or important are missing the point, people are upset because the corona team has promised that feature for a long time, just a few days ago, someone asked if tonemapping was still in the works for v7 and they said it was actively being worked on.

Unless something unexpected and huge happened in the past 2 days, the corona team probably knew it would not make it to v7 for a reasonably long time, and knowing it is something people really want, it was a shitty move to just move it to v8 in trello and say nothing about it.

I bet the reason for moving it is good, I bet it’s going to be worth it, just treat your fans with respect and love and spend a little time communicating this to them. Maybe post a quick video explaining the thought process... and do it in a timely manner, if you pull the feature out so late into the release cycle, it is reasonable to expect people getting angry, as everything made it seem like the feature was going to be included in v7 and it was going to be great.

I hope this helps you guys, looking forward to v8 :)

2021-06-05, 23:16:51
Reply #21

lupaz

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I bet there is no one more motivated than the corona team to get tone mapping out. It really looks like they are taking it seriously and trying to do something exceptional, witch often means things taking much longer than expected.

I'm sure whoever is working on it is taking it seriously. No doubt about that. The question is how many devs are assigned to Corona for Max these days, and their seniority. It looks as if there's only one person working on this and he isn't Ondra or Maru.

2021-06-06, 03:52:35
Reply #22

bluebox

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After Effects--for example. how they work in all normal studios.
I think also for freelancers:)
Same filters-same color grade-same compositions-same resolutions--only update image from renders--0.5 sec of working time:)besides, it never happens that your post process is 100 percent satisfied with the customer. and a lot of things that simply cannot be added to raw renders.
absolutely in any case a third-party application is used



You are biased AF dude. Fact that probably all bigger studios work this way doesn't mean they are the "normal" ones and those that don't use it are somewhat ... I dont know ? Worse ? Not normal ? One might thinkt that is what you suggest.

Up until recently there was no other way of doing this as renderers focused on producing basic raw image or would let you tonemap it with bullcrap reinhard inside in a limited way and that's it. Specialised software existed to push things further. This also exists because large studios are big structures not as elastic with their pipeline as the smaller ones where changing pipeline is a matter of day(s) unlike the biggies with tens of artists.

As everything evolves there is no need for that workflow with fancy software for people who want to push things just a little behind the line without the need to resolve to soft as AE, Davinci and the sort.

You're assuming that this is the only organic way of growth - want to postproces better - do it external. It isn't. More controll here would totaly sufice many many people. And I see what I get instantenously while I develop it. Without the need to shuffle in and out of max and VFB and opening it in external soft. Sort like the move from buckets to interactive. From Grant Warvick multilayered materials to simple GGX.

We also regularly work with clients in live preview sessions - how do you expect me to show them the final result if I have to go through fifty additional steps to show them the finished image ?
Thins are going WYSIWG way in many fields.
I don't need super advanced pipeline with 5 softwares inbetween a render and finished image. My profile does not force me to incorporate one and more and more people dont need it. I need more controll inside the VFB.

They way you're using this software isn't the only way. The purpose you're using it isn't the only one for which it can be used.

Do not try to invalidate other peoples feature requests only because you do not need them. Other people do and judging by the "most wanted features" thread many people want to get this upgraded.

I bet there is no one more motivated than the corona team to get tone mapping out. It really looks like they are taking it seriously and trying to do something exceptional, witch often means things taking much longer than expected.

I'm sure whoever is working on it is taking it seriously. No doubt about that. The question is how many devs are assigned to Corona for Max these days, and their seniority. It looks as if there's only one person working on this and he isn't Ondra or Maru.

This. Valid point. We suppose to get features. Turns out some are postoponed undefinitely for release after a release, some most highly anticipated like tonemapping after finaly getting to be worked on seems like might take almost two years to get to final stable release (not mentioning time people were vigorously discussing it on the forum). We have a team of developers, Meanwhile Fstorm is developed by just a single guy and I understand that some might argue that it is still not production ready and whatnot but still, one guy.

Here no communication. Zero explanation as to why. Silently removing a feature to next release.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-06, 05:15:44 by bluebox »

2021-06-06, 07:23:16
Reply #23

BVVV

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HUGE disappointment.

For the new physical material,we have PBR material in 3ds max 2021 and 2022

Expected two versions for nothing

fk vray

2021-06-06, 07:49:12
Reply #24

danio1011

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It would be nice to hear from the devs on this.  Does this come down to the wackiness of 2020?  Lack of manpower?  Reluctance to release things in daily’s? Maybe it’s the smart decision, but it at least appears (perhaps just to the uninitiated) that development has slowed.  Maybe the Physical Material was way harder than they thought...that’s fine!  But we all stake some portion of our livelihoods on the technology we invest in and we want it (and us) to keep up with the times.  I think the general suspicion is that there is a brain drain going on.

I certainly know that with my clients if I were to change expectations with no explanation there would be a general ‘hmpphh!’ response.  It’s just the way things work, communication is key.

2021-06-06, 13:10:05
Reply #25

Feodor

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I will stand up for the Corona Render team, if it takes more time to implement something of high quality, then so be it, I am not a fan of deadlines and crunches, this reduces the quality of the product and the love for it in the development team, as well as increases staff turnover, which is bad for the final product.

2021-06-06, 14:54:58
Reply #26

lupaz

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I will stand up for the Corona Render team, if it takes more time to implement something of high quality, then so be it, I am not a fan of deadlines and crunches, this reduces the quality of the product and the love for it in the development team, as well as increases staff turnover, which is bad for the final product.

It kind of matters who is working though. Hypothetically speaking, let's say ondra and maru aren't coding anymore and chaosgroup just put one junior programmer for Corona. I wouldn't be ok with that. You're paying for a product/service that you think is one thing and it turns out it's not. Transparency is needed ASAP.

2021-06-06, 22:11:56
Reply #27

denisgo22

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After Effects--for example. how they work in all normal studios.
I think also for freelancers:)
Same filters-same color grade-same compositions-same resolutions--only update image from renders--0.5 sec of working time:)besides, it never happens that your post process is 100 percent satisfied with the customer. and a lot of things that simply cannot be added to raw renders.
absolutely in any case a third-party application is used




You are biased AF dude. Fact that probably all bigger studios work this way doesn't mean they are the "normal" ones and those that don't use it are somewhat ... I dont know ? Worse ? Not normal ? One might thinkt that is what you suggest.

Up until recently there was no other way of doing this as renderers focused on producing basic raw image or would let you tonemap it with bullcrap reinhard inside in a limited way and that's it. Specialised software existed to push things further. This also exists because large studios are big structures not as elastic with their pipeline as the smaller ones where changing pipeline is a matter of day(s) unlike the biggies with tens of artists.

As everything evolves there is no need for that workflow with fancy software for people who want to push things just a little behind the line without the need to resolve to soft as AE, Davinci and the sort.

You're assuming that this is the only organic way of growth - want to postproces better - do it external. It isn't. More controll here would totaly sufice many many people. And I see what I get instantenously while I develop it. Without the need to shuffle in and out of max and VFB and opening it in external soft. Sort like the move from buckets to interactive. From Grant Warvick multilayered materials to simple GGX.

We also regularly work with clients in live preview sessions - how do you expect me to show them the final result if I have to go through fifty additional steps to show them the finished image ?
Thins are going WYSIWG way in many fields.
I don't need super advanced pipeline with 5 softwares inbetween a render and finished image. My profile does not force me to incorporate one and more and more people dont need it. I need more controll inside the VFB.

They way you're using this software isn't the only way. The purpose you're using it isn't the only one for which it can be used.

Do not try to invalidate other peoples feature requests only because you do not need them. Other people do and judging by the "most wanted features" thread many people want to get this upgraded.

I bet there is no one more motivated than the corona team to get tone mapping out. It really looks like they are taking it seriously and trying to do something exceptional, witch often means things taking much longer than expected.

I'm sure whoever is working on it is taking it seriously. No doubt about that. The question is how many devs are assigned to Corona for Max these days, and their seniority. It looks as if there's only one person working on this and he isn't Ondra or Maru.

This. Valid point. We suppose to get features. Turns out some are postoponed undefinitely for release after a release, some most highly anticipated like tonemapping after finaly getting to be worked on seems like might take almost two years to get to final stable release (not mentioning time people were vigorously discussing it on the forum). We have a team of developers, Meanwhile Fstorm is developed by just a single guy and I understand that some might argue that it is still not production ready and whatnot but still, one guy.

Here no communication. Zero explanation as to why. Silently removing a feature to next release.

no need to worry so much dude (;
I am sure that a brilliant Corona team
in the end will cope with the task for your peace of mind.
I didn't dissuade anyone from anything because it's not very smart. it's just that there are many other problems worthy of a solution besides the "post-process in VFB'" :)



2021-06-07, 01:02:35
Reply #28

shortcirkuit

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wow - whats the problem here guys?  you dont think a world wide pandemic could be the reason why things have slowed down a little?  By little, i mean, little.  The dailies have been coming out fairly frequently and some exciting new features are coming our way, all of which shouldnt change the renders youre producing now all that dramatically - if much at all.  If youre looking for the holy grail, then as they say, its not the tools but the person using it.  I will say though, as ive said many times, the slicer/clipper is well overdue but apart from that, all seems to be progressing well.

peace.

2021-06-07, 10:49:49
Reply #29

smadiswelem

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Nice... in 10 months and 4 features. Only one is really big... but..... ((((( agree with that!