Author Topic: F-Storm LUT capture?  (Read 9086 times)

2017-10-09, 15:23:36

agentdark45

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Hi guys, just wondering if anyone has any experience with F-Storm here?

I'm part of the F-Storm Facebook group and am constantly impressed by how well tone-mapped some of the images are, however I can't get my hands on the software at the moment to do any experimenting with (it appears to not be for sale).

My question is whether someone who access to the engine is able to capture whatever they are doing with their default tonemapping as a LUT for use with the Corona VFB? The highlights, midtone contrast, colours and shadows are just spot on in almost everything I've seen (calling on Dubcat!).

Some examples here:

https://evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?116783-Visualization-FStorm-renders-collection

This isn't a knock to Corona in any way (I'll be sticking with it for the foreseeable future) but there's definitely some tonemapping magic going on in F-Storm that has me extremely intrigued.
Vray who?

2017-10-10, 13:04:37
Reply #1

Juraj

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DISCLAIMER :- D Let's not lock this thread please, there are interesting things that can be discussed inter-renderers if it won't devolve mess and arguing about which is better.

There are few things F-Storm does that are intriguing from what I've seen (and was confirmed by Dubcat), that are not limited to its post-processing.

  • But let's start with that. F-Storm does have better tonemapper, that can be argued rather easily, it has differently tweaked curve with shorter shoulder, preserving more of the midtones and being less aggressive on highlights. This looks more photorealistic, but might not be desiderable by all who are so used to drastic Reinhard which can simulate almost ridiculous dynamic range compression, albeit at the cost of total perceptive flatness. Solution to this has always been full, well integrated filmic mapping with all of its 5 controls. Corona does filmic wrong, it's not usable in current state.
    Who wants to learn more about this and proper implementation, here is great blog with ready-to-use github code from the creator itself, the genius John Habble. http://filmicworlds.com/blog/filmic-tonemapping-with-piecewise-power-curves/
  • There is something happening differently in how it computes the light that results in more directional look. At the moment, it's not quite clear whether this comes from Direct light, GI (and possible clamp) or whether it's shader related (perhaps through its tweaked BRDF. But it is nonetheless there. I'll wait if one brave souls is willing to post screenshots from comparative tests, but if not, perhaps I might make some in future :- )

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2017-10-13, 10:00:17
Reply #2

Ondra

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There is something happening differently in how it computes the light that results in more directional look. At the moment, it's not quite clear whether this comes from Direct light, GI (and possible clamp) or whether it's shader related (perhaps through its tweaked BRDF. But it is nonetheless there. I'll wait if one brave souls is willing to post screenshots from comparative tests, but if not, perhaps I might make some in future :- )

Please do tests for us ;) From what we can gather, it clips GI a lot, resulting in direct light-dominated image. Direct lighting is of course more contrasty and dramatic.
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2017-10-13, 10:45:58
Reply #3

romullus

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That would explain its speed in interior scenes, isn't?

It would be interesting if someone could take cecofuli's scene from neighbour topic, render it with both renderers and would provide direct and indirect REs along with beauty for comparison.
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2017-10-13, 11:37:27
Reply #4

lacilaci

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I agree with romullus that some more complex interior scene test would be much greater help...

I did some quick comparison against fstorm demo. In a simple scene non-tonemapped results seem very close (just a little glare+bloom to match fstorm default).

default fstrom gi clamping is set to 1 and max paths to 8, i set it to 20 for max intensity and 25 for max paths to match corona but again, in this simple scene it makes no difference.

default fstorm tonemapping seems much harder to match in corona. You can get shadowy areas and contrast pretty close easily, but highlight fallof is very flat in corona no matter what you do. You could maybe match it closer in postproduction in photoshop etc. But corona's own tonemapping seems to do something very wrong with highlights.

I'm very busy now and can't do more testing but I think it's very important to investigate especially the tonemapping side of things (but again, more complex scene is needed to test against)

2017-10-13, 15:08:46
Reply #5

agentdark45

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Thanks for the tests lacilaci! I wonder if someone is able to extract any useful information from the colour checkers in the tonemapped images?

Juraj, that filmic tonemapping link is excellent - this is the sort of control I would love to have in Corona beyond the regular highlight compression spinner (I leave the current filmic controls alone as they do weird things to colours/shadows). Perhaps this could be added in an "advanced" tone mapping tab to not clutter the VFB/in keeping with the ethos of not complicating things. I have no idea what I'm looking at regarding the filmic source code though...maybe the dev team could weigh in on how hard this would be to implement?

Personally, the addition of LUT's to the VFB completely changed the way I work with Corona (drastically for the better), I think the above would be the next step in getting closer to fully photographic images.

Slightly off topic but Johannes Lindqvist just dropped a mad F-Storm animation:

« Last Edit: 2017-10-13, 15:16:08 by agentdark45 »
Vray who?

2017-10-21, 05:56:08
Reply #6

dubcat

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First of all, I'm not part of the corona vs fstorm movement, I just want to make that clear.

But I've been doing regular fstorm tests ever since it got released. The fstorm tone mapper was dumped as ACESlog lut when fstorm was released, the problem is that corona does not have a standard loglut "decoder". Logluts are super sensitive, just look at this example



as you can see in this example, you can't just load a random log lut and get 1:1 output. We want ACESlog, because it behave as EV. Don't confuse this with the hyped ACES tone mapper.
ACES log is just like PBR, we can try to ignore it, but it is the standard in cg.

I've been doing regular tests the past few weeks, because I want to nail the difference between these two renderers. The render settings have been the same. 

"PT + PT
32 Light sample
20 gi clamp
25 ray depth
Tone mapper off"

The main difference is that fstorm has "diffuse roughness", and it is at 0.8 default. After some tests, it is clear that fstorms max roughness setting at 0.99 yields the same result as corona. Fstorm has softer shadows than corona because of this.
If Corona want to match this, we need a diffuse roughness parameter.









But there is another factor, and I don't know what it is yet.
fstorm seem to do something that looks like a secondary gi bounce. open the example pictures in photoshop /affinity and toggle between them. fstorm is 5 RGB brighter in the shadow areas, and this is always the case. I've been doing ALOT of tests, and fstorm always bounce GI more. reflection is disabled, and fstorms reflection render element is black. I don't know if this is a fact, but I feel this help the noise % go down quicker.
« Last Edit: 2017-10-21, 07:00:05 by dubcat »
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2017-10-22, 09:22:53
Reply #7

lacilaci

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interresting results,

what type of lighting did you use for that test? Or what settings?

I did test to see the difference it would make in "interior - like" scene.
With your settings of 0.99 for diff. roughness of fstorm material.

there are no portals and corona's gi is pt+pt, fstrom settings are set to match (gi clamp at 20 and bounces at 25)

single light source - 20x20cm rectangle light, 30 000 of intensity and default exposure

results are pretty much identical or almost(slightly different shadow fallof noticeable on spheres)

Now, when exposure changes we can see things falling apart. I'm no expert in this, don't know which behaviour is correct but to match corona ev+5 fstorm has to be at ev+30 (eyeballing it) which is because of the ACESlog you mentioned..?

2017-10-31, 15:37:50
Reply #8

dubcat

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Hey

Quote
what type of lighting did you use for that test? Or what settings?

I made a HDRi of Corona Sun/Sky. And used that HDRi in both engines.

Quote
because of the ACESlog you mentioned..?

I don't know what the EV in fStorm is based upon, but the value is always higher then in other engines.
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