Author Topic: Impremta Garden (+ breakdowns )  (Read 46425 times)

2017-09-12, 00:46:38

Juraj

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Hi everyone,

I didn't post any project for past half-year and finally decided to start doing so again. I was quite tired from work and then decided to take long break over the summer, which didn't work out well as I've (with Veronika) instead started a new sort of project/work/stuff...that's maybe CGI connected or maybe even not :- ) But I at least got to start posting one of many projects sitting sadly on our harddrive. Well at least those not under NDA.

Impremta Garden is one of two Mallorcan real-estate projects we finished (back in April) and it didn't look like much when I got the brief. It was...empty, dark with not that many windows, with some potential. But as I delved deeper into materials and playing with light inside it, it showed its real potential and we're both very proud of it now, I am very happy how it looks. And I am never happy or satisfied...with anything.

Below is some selection of images from it.

Rendered in C-Ray at typical 8k resolution (and it took forever time, don't ask). I downsampled those to 1/4 at 2560px/Jpeg9 so it's watchable (hopefully?) on web :- ). All questions welcome but please don't kill me with pixel-peeping, I am only human.

Client& Interior Design& Art Direction: Whyte Lilja Architects | Visualization& Art Direction: Talcik&Demovicova

Breakdowns/Tutorials are in second post right below ( link http://bit.ly/CoronaThread )













































And few more bellow :- ) I didn't want to destroy your bandwidth, the above are all Jpeg(9quality) but quite a lot of them.

There is little bit more user-friendly way to watch it on Behance https://www.behance.net/gallery/56617777/Impremta-Garden
« Last Edit: 2017-09-15, 17:38:32 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-12, 00:47:05
Reply #1

Juraj

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(reserve)
(already got some questions regarding some materials, light and post-production, so I'll post answers to those here)

One case of light setup is illustrated below (This is Lighting for Livingroom and Bedroom). It's important to stress, these are no magic settings :- ). I often use the Sun intensity in full range ( from 0.01 for tiny hint of Sun to 1.0 full scale ), Sky saturation whether I want more overcast/pre-storm look or more natural, midday look. I might or might not add additional light through planes, and here I added it because the buildings were blocking little more Sky light and I wanted to balance things out. I chose neutral intensity (6500K=White) so it's between warm sun and colder Sky.



{Bedroom} Tricks : There is WHITE wall next to (outside of image on left) bed to bounce light back instead of blocking it :- )





Here is the Patio Setup. Light + PostProduction

(click on images to see high-res)







(click to see higher res). And now onto some embarrassingly simple materials, although there are few complex ones, most are... not. I'll use each mini shader-tut to highlight something different I focus on at.




Here is little bit of post-production in image where it makes the "biggest" impact (I know...bit anti-climatic) :- ). I don't have any final render saved without the LUT, so just imagine flat linear image. Maybe I will re-render some..but not possible right now.




Here is the breakdown of 'Atlas' (Megascan) type shader for plants. Hope it's easy to understand :- ). It let's you use single texture sheets per map (from Megascan, where one Albedo map has 20 leaves but your model has one UV per leaf only).

Last Edit: Today at 15:50:16
The slate view looks robust...but you can even go right back to basic editor type and it will remember those instanced connections across every map. Big thanks to Rawalanche who showed me how to use those linear nodes. I actually asked for a map type node that would do this in Corona.



Here is what you can do to basic Ivy model:



« Last Edit: 2017-09-14, 20:19:42 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-12, 06:49:20
Reply #2

lee74in2000

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Amazing Renders ....... The Dynamic Duo has Done it Again as expected. Great work really inspiring.

2017-09-12, 08:46:03
Reply #3

hrvojezg00

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Masterfull!

JPEG9 is loseless format? Can`t find any info on it.

2017-09-12, 09:46:22
Reply #4

Jens

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When I notice I'm sitting talking to myself about the images, the work is usually extraordinary - or I'm just a bit loony. Amazing work yet again guys. Real stunner!

Are you still using that special framebuffer plugin for CC tweaks or how does you workflow look nowadays once the render finishes? Feel free to point to a different thread if you've answered this recently ;)
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2017-09-12, 11:33:37
Reply #5

Juraj

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When I notice I'm sitting talking to myself about the images, the work is usually extraordinary - or I'm just a bit loony. Amazing work yet again guys. Real stunner!

Are you still using that special framebuffer plugin for CC tweaks or how does you workflow look nowadays once the render finishes? Feel free to point to a different thread if you've answered this recently ;)

No, I don't use VFB+ anymore even though it still has benefits. Corona integrated the primary features from it (bloom&glare, LUT, curves, contrast,etc..) so I just use Corona framebuffer. I apply highlight tonemapping (not filmic), contrast, B&G, LUT and then I take it into Photoshop as regular 16bit Tiff and work on colors and tweaks there.

Masterfull!
JPEG9 is loseless format? Can`t find any info on it.

Now I am not sure if you're just trolling me because it's morning :- ). It's Jpeg compressed to quality 9, how Photoshop names it. Anything less (7-8) already creates banding in shadows, but 9 is is 1/4 of the full size and still really good quality.
When I upload to web, bigger resolution + more compression is better then smaller resolution + less compression.
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2017-09-12, 12:09:37
Reply #6

Jens

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Thanks Juraj

Also, I'm pretty sure Mr. Cop is trolling ;)
My small 3D model shop: www.ikonoform.com/shop
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2017-09-12, 12:44:38
Reply #7

hrvojezg00

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Haha, not trolling, got it now. How big do you go for web?

When I notice I'm sitting talking to myself about the images, the work is usually extraordinary - or I'm just a bit loony. Amazing work yet again guys. Real stunner!

Are you still using that special framebuffer plugin for CC tweaks or how does you workflow look nowadays once the render finishes? Feel free to point to a different thread if you've answered this recently ;)

No, I don't use VFB+ anymore even though it still has benefits. Corona integrated the primary features from it (bloom&glare, LUT, curves, contrast,etc..) so I just use Corona framebuffer. I apply highlight tonemapping (not filmic), contrast, B&G, LUT and then I take it into Photoshop as regular 16bit Tiff and work on colors and tweaks there.

Masterfull!
JPEG9 is loseless format? Can`t find any info on it.

Now I am not sure if you're just trolling me because it's morning :- ). It's Jpeg compressed to quality 9, how Photoshop names it. Anything less (7-8) already creates banding in shadows, but 9 is is 1/4 of the full size and still really good quality.
When I upload to web, bigger resolution + more compression is better then smaller resolution + less compression.

2017-09-12, 16:27:24
Reply #8

Correntes

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As usual, great work.

What I really like in your images is that they show that you care. Great attention in light, detail and composition.

How much days you guys work per image since conception till final render ?







2017-09-12, 16:45:57
Reply #9

karklinskarlis1993

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this stuff asks for breakdown!
masterfully!

2017-09-12, 16:50:43
Reply #10

Juraj

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How much days you guys work per image since conception till final render ?

Thank you much !
On average, I schedule one week of human work per image when budgeting time and money :- ). If I would only count hours when someone has opened 3dsMax and Photoshop, it would be far less, but then communication takes time, waiting for changes,etc. Usually at least two projects happen at same time so it's bit hard to pinpoint down the times.

But sometimes the project is at the end and suddenly a developer asks for 3 more and we have to do them in less than week and that's still doable. But on average it's lot more spread to avoid stress and get enough communication and planning in about them.

Haha, not trolling, got it now. How big do you go for web?

I currently use 2.5k.

this stuff asks for breakdown!
masterfully!

But what exactly :- ) ?
It might actually be one of the easiest projects in terms of technical workflow we did past half-year. But the architecture is so interesting and ended up working so well with light sculpting the spaces inside.
What was hardest in this was how many time certain architectural features changed (esp. windows) because there was another architects company that were bit slow in giving us sufficient information.

I made a first screenshot showing how one case of light is setup using the Sun&Sky. https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?topic=17415.msg109258#msg109258
« Last Edit: 2017-09-12, 17:35:21 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-12, 18:35:42
Reply #11

agentdark45

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Amazing as always Juraj. Cool to see how this project progressed from the first set of images you shared in the other thread.

Would you mind showing the straight out of the VFB result so that we can see how the photoshop changes affected the rendered image? Did you use Arion or Camera raw to make the tweaks?

One issue I commonly run into with clients is having to give them several low res renders until they are satisfied with their choice of materials, lighting e.t.c so I try to get my VFB result looking as nice as possible in order to avoid wasting time with post production due to changing elements within the scene / delivering a final image with post production that has changed the tones of certain materials to the displeasure of the client ("why has that cushion become darker?").

P.S Where do you source your textures from? Custom scans or any good web resources you can recommend?
« Last Edit: 2017-09-12, 18:42:03 by agentdark45 »
Vray who?

2017-09-12, 18:41:21
Reply #12

Juraj

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Amazing as always Juraj. Cool to see how this project progressed from the first set of images you shared in the other thread.

Would you mind showing the straight out of the VFB result so that we can see how the photoshop changes affected the rendered image? Did you use Arion or Camera raw to make the tweaks?

One issue I commonly run into with clients is having to give them several low res renders until they are satisfied with their choice of materials, lighting e.t.c so I try to get my VFB result looking as nice as possible in order to avoid wasting time with post production due to changing elements within the scene / delivering a final image with post production that has changed the tones of certain materials to the displeasure of the client ("why has that cushion become darker?").

We're no different, I try to send previews looking as nice as possible so they don't pick apart stuff that would be improved later. And that means I have to be flexible so the post-production is very similar from first clay renders to final images.
I don't have any render saved without LUT though, are you fine if I just post the minimal changes I do after I save base render that included LUT ? (The LUT is just high-contrast S-curve like the one you can get with Dubcat's photographic ones).
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2017-09-12, 18:49:56
Reply #13

agentdark45

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Amazing as always Juraj. Cool to see how this project progressed from the first set of images you shared in the other thread.

Would you mind showing the straight out of the VFB result so that we can see how the photoshop changes affected the rendered image? Did you use Arion or Camera raw to make the tweaks?

One issue I commonly run into with clients is having to give them several low res renders until they are satisfied with their choice of materials, lighting e.t.c so I try to get my VFB result looking as nice as possible in order to avoid wasting time with post production due to changing elements within the scene / delivering a final image with post production that has changed the tones of certain materials to the displeasure of the client ("why has that cushion become darker?").

We're no different, I try to send previews looking as nice as possible so they don't pick apart stuff that would be improved later. And that means I have to be flexible so the post-production is very similar from first clay renders to final images.
I don't have any render saved without LUT though, are you fine if I just post the minimal changes I do after I save base render that included LUT ? (The LUT is just high-contrast S-curve like the one you can get with Dubcat's photographic ones).

Good to know I'm not the only one this happens to haha. Yes please do post it up!

Have you done any experimentation using Log LUTs? Such as the ones by Adanmq here: https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?topic=14958.50 (post 66). I've been using the high or very high contrast LUT with great success on certain projects. They have been invaluable in preserving highlights while also giving a nice punchy look to colours/shadows.
Vray who?

2017-09-12, 19:10:41
Reply #14

Juraj

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Amazing as always Juraj. Cool to see how this project progressed from the first set of images you shared in the other thread.

Would you mind showing the straight out of the VFB result so that we can see how the photoshop changes affected the rendered image? Did you use Arion or Camera raw to make the tweaks?

One issue I commonly run into with clients is having to give them several low res renders until they are satisfied with their choice of materials, lighting e.t.c so I try to get my VFB result looking as nice as possible in order to avoid wasting time with post production due to changing elements within the scene / delivering a final image with post production that has changed the tones of certain materials to the displeasure of the client ("why has that cushion become darker?").

We're no different, I try to send previews looking as nice as possible so they don't pick apart stuff that would be improved later. And that means I have to be flexible so the post-production is very similar from first clay renders to final images.
I don't have any render saved without LUT though, are you fine if I just post the minimal changes I do after I save base render that included LUT ? (The LUT is just high-contrast S-curve like the one you can get with Dubcat's photographic ones).

Good to know I'm not the only one this happens to haha. Yes please do post it up!

Have you done any experimentation using Log LUTs? Such as the ones by Adanmq here: https://forum.corona-renderer.com/index.php?topic=14958.50 (post 66). I've been using the high or very high contrast LUT with great success on certain projects. They have been invaluable in preserving highlights while also giving a nice punchy look to colours/shadows.

It's currently not easy to transfer exact LOG curves because we don't know what LOG type is even Corona using ! :- ). Apparently, it's the same as Vray, but damn which one is that either ?

We need answers and then mister Dubcat will revolutionise our post-production workflow once again.

ps: I uploaded first post-pro screen.
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2017-09-12, 20:30:44
Reply #15

zuliban

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very nice work ! all the images are pleasant to look to and the lighting is very well balanced.

2017-09-12, 23:47:21
Reply #16

Adi

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Havent followed the forum for a while now , but as far as i could see this is the best work of you two in my eyes.

I must ask ,did you make ivy with guruware plugin ?
And I'm not sure , but for some reason i think that water in the pool should have stronger refraction. Just my opinion :)

Awesome work ,it was a real joy seeing this masterpiece.

2017-09-13, 00:00:04
Reply #17

Juraj

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very nice work ! all the images are pleasant to look to and the lighting is very well balanced.

I am super honored Zuliban !

Havent followed the forum for a while now , but as far as i could see this is the best work of you two in my eyes.

I must ask ,did you make ivy with guruware plugin ?
And I'm not sure , but for some reason i think that water in the pool should have stronger refraction. Just my opinion :)

Awesome work ,it was a real joy seeing this masterpiece.

Thanks Adi :- ).

I didn't make it in GrowIvy, as I long disliked that plugin so I took a base model from 3dSky and put megascan shader over it. Actually I am quite proud of that trick, it's fast and makes everything nicer :- ). Here is a screenshot of what you can do.
I am using special trick from Rawalanche (using Slate editor) that lets me using Atlas texture and still map individual leaves with different IDs without cutting the texture to individual leaves.

You're not wrong about the water, I am not using scattering inside and neither does Corona use caustic so pool water in my opinion never really looks that good.
But if you only mean the distortion that should come from refraction, than that's part of artistic requirement of client, it simply looks nicer to them like this. I think the IOR was lowered, but I don't remember.


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2017-09-13, 01:21:47
Reply #18

Juraj

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P.S Where do you source your textures from? Custom scans or any good web resources you can recommend?

I missed this edited addendum so here's answer now :- ).

Everywhere. When I get compulsive moment I just browse through every nook of the internet. Here are some of the best sources imho:

-Textures.com Yup, everyone knows about it but in past year they added 2 really interesting sections. The scanned materials and allegoritmic substances. Both are really nice. Currently it's together less than <200 mats but lot of them have interesting maps.
-Allegoritmic source - Great repository of substances. They are hit&miss but it's obvious from preview which one it is. The partially scanned ones (like fabric) are fantastic, the 100perc. procedural mostly trash.
-Megascan - I am little bit jaded about this one, I paid 8k membership since last yeah August and so far use very little of it. They are so slow (two rocks each month, thanks...)...and scan so much (literal sometimes) trash. But lot of it is useful and the vegetation is invaluable.

I don't use Substance Designer or Painter (yet) btw. I just use them as tiled maps.
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2017-09-13, 06:29:56
Reply #19

shortcirkuit

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hey Juraj

Awesome work - can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you used the 3dsky model and overlaid a megascans texture on it? not sure technically what you mean

2017-09-13, 07:24:04
Reply #20

JoeVallard

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hey Juraj

Awesome work - can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you used the 3dsky model and overlaid a megascans texture on it? not sure technically what you mean
He downloaded a model from 3dsky and used Megascan's textures to make the materials for it.

2017-09-13, 08:46:07
Reply #21

shortcirkuit

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hey Juraj

Awesome work - can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you used the 3dsky model and overlaid a megascans texture on it? not sure technically what you mean
He downloaded a model from 3dsky and used Megascan's textures to make the materials for it.

i realise this mate - still doesnt answer my question.  Seeing you know, could you explain how it would have been done technically?

2017-09-13, 10:58:33
Reply #22

Juraj

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hey Juraj

Awesome work - can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you used the 3dsky model and overlaid a megascans texture on it? not sure technically what you mean
He downloaded a model from 3dsky and used Megascan's textures to make the materials for it.

i realise this mate - still doesnt answer my question.  Seeing you know, could you explain how it would have been done technically?

Here is the breakdown of the shader :- ). Hope it's easy to understand.

The slate view looks robust...but you can even go right back to basic editor type and it will remember those instanced connections across every map. Big thanks to Rawalanche who showed me how to use those linear nodes. I actually asked for a map type node that would do this in Corona.





Edit: I uploaded revised version of this tutorial, so it makes sense even for absolute Slate beginner. Previously it wasn't clear where exactly those floats connect and that you only need to create and connect it one time.

« Last Edit: 2017-09-13, 18:52:22 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-13, 17:36:04
Reply #23

Juraj

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Added two exteriors, I forgot there was a second one :- )

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2017-09-13, 18:35:36
Reply #24

lasse1309

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those are so beautiful, i want to cry.

2017-09-13, 19:15:49
Reply #25

peterguthrie

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2017-09-13, 19:32:10
Reply #26

Juraj

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Thanks Peter and Lasse, very proud to get your compliments :- ).
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2017-09-13, 22:46:29
Reply #27

johan belmans

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Top notch visuals!
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

2017-09-14, 01:07:17
Reply #28

mylesmontgomery

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Fantastic work Juraj and Veronica!

Raising the bar again and sharing your process, thanks so much.

The megascans shading technique has been a barrier for us for a while, thanks for sharing this.

2017-09-14, 01:50:56
Reply #29

Juraj

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Thank you Johan and Myles.

I've uploaded a water pool material, that really isn't something universal but someone asked for it on Instragram so I'll add it here.

I'll keep adding more silently from now so I don't spam the thread myself :- ) Everything will be in second post.

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2017-09-14, 04:01:51
Reply #30

shortcirkuit

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Thanks Juraj thank worked perfectly - very much appreciated.
So to use the different leaves, you have to copy all of them and then plug it into slot 2 of a multi-map? 
You cant instance this right because of the UV co-ordinates of the cropping?
« Last Edit: 2017-09-14, 04:38:30 by shortcirkuit »

2017-09-14, 08:40:20
Reply #31

JakubCech

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This is a very nice tip. My questions (for Rawalanche as well) - Now if I would like to use those in SpeedTree, I need to save them separately, so:
1. Is it possible to Batch "save" cropped maps?
2. Is it possible to rotate megascans before cropping?

2017-09-14, 08:55:47
Reply #32

Mr.Max

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Impressive work as always!
Thanks for sharing the process too
Simply, I love to put pixels together! Sounds easy right : ))
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2017-09-14, 10:18:32
Reply #33

hkezer

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Hey Juraj,

My question will be about the lightning. What was the workflow for this scene about lightning. It looks so natural and atmospheric but also all of the colors are so vibrant. Mostly I just put a simple HDRI from peter guthrie or cgsource and thats kind of it, In your the balance, bright spots all so balanced. I dont know how to ask actually, but I hope you got the problem I am trying to ask :D
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2017-09-14, 13:25:28
Reply #34

Juraj

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Hey Juraj,

My question will be about the lightning. What was the workflow for this scene about lightning. It looks so natural and atmospheric but also all of the colors are so vibrant. Mostly I just put a simple HDRI from peter guthrie or cgsource and thats kind of it, In your the balance, bright spots all so balanced. I dont know how to ask actually, but I hope you got the problem I am trying to ask :D

Hi hkezer,

did you see the tutorial on first page ? Which image do you have in mind ? I will post more lighting scenarios but just so I know which one to start with.

Bright spots you mean spotlights/artificial lights in pool images or bright parts in interior ?


This is a very nice tip. My questions (for Rawalanche as well) - Now if I would like to use those in SpeedTree, I need to save them separately, so:
1. Is it possible to Batch "save" cropped maps?
2. Is it possible to rotate megascans before cropping?

1.) Honestly don't know, maybe Rawa does, but Photoshop has superior function for this. I'll search and try to remember how it's called. (it can be used for example to batch-cut planks from floor texture too).
2.) Rotating in 3dsMax bitmap loaded isn't visually represented in the cropping popup image so it's just shooting in the blank. PS is better in this case.


Thanks Juraj thank worked perfectly - very much appreciated.
So to use the different leaves, you have to copy all of them and then plug it into slot 2 of a multi-map? 
You cant instance this right because of the UV co-ordinates of the cropping?

You want to instance material parameters but keep different bitmap crop&positions ? This is super easy to do in Unreal Engine...but I don't actually know straight from head how to do it in Slate. Perhaps Rawalanche could chime in but I don't know.
Right now I just did it with copying.

There were some smart-ass comments about how you can use unwrap to achieve this more effectively. Well yes...that's the point, this tutorial is when you can't unwrap 10 million poly single-mesh baked-down Tree.  Maybe I will write in the tutorial extreme disclaimer about when only to use it. I am really annoyed about people who don't have constructive opinions but nit-pick so they appear to 'one-up' you and appear smarter.
Sorry, nothing to do with this forum but one asshole can really ruin my positive mood. Thankfully the community here is fantastic.
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2017-09-14, 14:17:18
Reply #35

hkezer

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ACtually almost all of them especially bathroom and the kitchen. the opening is really small, and you have used some light (bulbs) but they are not that shiny. So I guess they wont change the interior. However it looks homogenoious. If I made that bathroom, I am sure it would be all dark and the window would be extremely bright. Really hard for me to ask :D but the light balance is so good
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2017-09-14, 14:35:17
Reply #36

Juraj

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ACtually almost all of them especially bathroom and the kitchen. the opening is really small, and you have used some light (bulbs) but they are not that shiny. So I guess they wont change the interior. However it looks homogenoious. If I made that bathroom, I am sure it would be all dark and the window would be extremely bright. Really hard for me to ask :D but the light balance is so good

True, the warm led lights are mostly just accents, although they avoid overdark places in case of the small one. I will open up the scene and look.

But as you can see from the before in post-pro image, it's rather bright already. I just expose the images rather high and live with the overbrights, use a lot of contrast (that also boosts midtones ! important for interiors).
The thing with overbright/clipped highlights, is that as long as they are desaturated and noiseless (which how a real camera would capture them) they look photorealistic and correct. You should never have any (or much) noise in highlights, but you can have plenty in shadows, that's ok.

I'll prepare more thorough break-down. I still have work today and tomorrow, so can't promise it will be sooner than weekend.
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2017-09-14, 15:21:23
Reply #37

hkezer

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I see, so logical, thank you very much, ill be looking forward:)
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2017-09-14, 16:01:12
Reply #38

vicmds

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This is beautiful. And thank you so much for your valuable tips!

I don't want to overwhelm with possibly repetitive questions, but is the lighting process the same for the exteriors? Age old question... but... Sun & Sky? I'm struggling to capture a certain sunny afternoon mood at the moment, so I'll take any inspiration - probably the reason why my favorite image here is the sunny Patio. Love it.

2017-09-14, 16:10:27
Reply #39

Juraj

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This is beautiful. And thank you so much for your valuable tips!

I don't want to overwhelm with possibly repetitive questions, but is the lighting process the same for the exteriors? Age old question... but... Sun & Sky? I'm struggling to capture a certain sunny afternoon mood at the moment, so I'll take any inspiration - probably the reason why my favorite image here is the sunny Patio. Love it.

The Patio is really just Sun&Sky, with almost no modification, I don't even think the Sun is bigger size because I wanted sharp shadows :- ).

But there are again some tricks here too, I'll post screenshots laters. Right behind the camera, is totally black wall, so the furniture isn't overbright from bounced light. And because the buildings in front are lit just by cold sky, there is warm fog overlayed with z-depth pass. I do it like this because of flexibility, in reality there would always be haze when looking against the sun because of all the particles and sun. So photography always looks a lot more sunny than rendered Sun&Sky. So adding a haze, or bloom (or both), and sun-flare (either rendered glare..but, for Sun it doesn't look so better in post-production) helps a lot to sell sunny mood. This way you can keep neutral white balance (so white is white, and blue shadows stay blue) and add sun though those additional touches.

The Dusk Exteriors I will post too, but I think I only used Sky...instead of HDRi, I need to check. But it's the standard blue-ish color and real temperature for lights. But playing a lot with their placement, and I think at some time I had some "non-real" 'flash' type lights that are not visible but strategically placed to provide additional accent without the visible spotlights causing too much of burnout on furniture directly below of them.
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2017-09-14, 16:35:56
Reply #40

vicmds

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Super neat tricks. I had already planned a lot of playing around with Z-Depth for post, but this broadens my horizons. Good to know everything is on the table, including the pitch black wall. I think it shows how important a photography mindset is when it comes to visualizations. Thanks!

2017-09-14, 18:19:28
Reply #41

Juraj

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Here you go :- ) The Patio Setup. Tell me if something remains unclear.

(click on images to see high-res)






And here is light & post-production for Bedroom. Sun&Sky (default Sky, Sun size=4) . Tricks : Exact opposite of Patio, there is WHITE wall next to bed to bounce light back instead of blocking it :- )





That's it, absolutely nothing special, no secret stuff :- ). You can recreate exactly the same setup.
« Last Edit: 2017-09-14, 20:17:11 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-14, 19:49:30
Reply #42

kmwhitt

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Very beautiful work!  Where did you get the wood beam material?  I will be needing something like this for an upcoming project.  Thanks...

2017-09-14, 19:55:22
Reply #43

Juraj

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Very beautiful work!  Where did you get the wood beam material?  I will be needing something like this for an upcoming project.  Thanks...

Textures.com, scan-based textures. It's adjusted to fit my particular material but it's great base :- ).
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2017-09-14, 20:05:57
Reply #44

kmwhitt

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Thanks.  The material is very well done!

2017-09-15, 00:56:41
Reply #45

mylesmontgomery

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Thanks Juraj,

The UV unwrap method is valid but only for creating leaves and vegetation from scratch. What you've given us is a way to turn a lemon of a model into a diamond.

Cheers!

2017-09-15, 01:21:48
Reply #46

shortcirkuit

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Thanks again for sharing all of this - your shared knowledge is very much appreciated. 

2017-09-15, 15:34:12
Reply #47

darstellungsart.

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This is such a beautiful work, congratiulations to you and veronica. I know we are in a render forum but i am more into the interior design that is on par with your rendering skills. The color scheme, the fabrics, the composition between the styles of the different furnitures and all those little details ...you're definately worth your money :D

Is there a good way to calculate how long it takes to make such a interior design ? Could you discripe how much time you normally plan for the interior design in the overall process ?

2017-09-15, 17:19:27
Reply #48

Juraj

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This is such a beautiful work, congratiulations to you and veronica. I know we are in a render forum but i am more into the interior design that is on par with your rendering skills. The color scheme, the fabrics, the composition between the styles of the different furnitures and all those little details ...you're definately worth your money :D

Is there a good way to calculate how long it takes to make such a interior design ? Could you discripe how much time you normally plan for the interior design in the overall process ?

You're overstating our involvement in this particular project :- ). Most of the interior design here is done by our direct client, Whyte Lilja Architects in that it's them who choose the general furniture pieces (chairs, lamps, sofas) and props, and we give it a face (although stuff like the bed is fully something we come up with).
Light, fabrics, materials look, cameras, general mood&look is something we come up with then afterwards. So it's very much a collaboration. (sometimes perfect, sometimes bit painful :- ) ..)

Zaha Hadid & The Nivy Restaurant are two projects which we both designed and rendered because our client was only the marketing department of the developer, there was no other design company involved. For work with Whyte Lilja Architect, developer only backs the project and we communicate with architects. Our projects are 80perc. real-estate, but 50:50 whether we work for developer directly, or through architects/designers studio. Each has its benefits and drawbacks, and different workflow.
We're still first and foremost a visualization boutique, but of course we absolutely love to do the design as well when given a chance. When that happens, there is at least one or two weeks of planning and consultation with clients to whom we present moodboards.

In fact, I have 50perc. written tutorial for Zaha Hadid project how we go from designing to visualization, A-to-Z from communication to sending images. I just never finished it... Perhaps I should just finish the design & communication, possibly merge it with design&communication of TheNivy and be done with it, leave 3D/CGI part off.
« Last Edit: 2017-09-15, 17:24:39 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-09-16, 08:47:34
Reply #49

ASaarnak

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Very beautiful work!

In fact, I have 50perc. written tutorial for Zaha Hadid project how we go from designing to visualization, A-to-Z from communication to sending images. I just never finished it... Perhaps I should just finish the design & communication, possibly merge it with design&communication of TheNivy and be done with it, leave 3D/CGI part off.

You should do this:) It would definitely be much appreciated and a very interesting read.

2017-09-16, 15:58:05
Reply #50

darstellungsart.

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Thank you for the insight.
The garden and ne NIVY restaurant are at the same quality level and have some similar design elements so i concluded that its your work. The design from Whyte Lilja architects suit your style of rendering very well. :)

As the workflow of rendering realistic pictures getting easier and easier, the importance of offering such beatiful interior designs like NIVY is crucial. The work with a finished interior design might be easier but to implement a own design is more fulfilling, i think.
I wil ldefinatly check you tutorial out. To read such design related tutorials is sometimes more interesting than pure technical related informations.

You could finish it if you have some time on your hand but if not, its okay too. :D

I look forward to your future projects.

2017-09-16, 16:24:55
Reply #51

Juraj

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Being able to both design and visualize is really nice niche and it does feel a lot more fulfilling.

But it needs good client who trusts you and has the same taste. When working with finished design from client, you have the certainty they won't fault you for something they designed themselves :- ) Not that it happened recently (it did to us 4 years ago when we were starting but I still remember the fiasco we barely got paid! ) but I am wary of it so I wouldn't take design job just for anyone, we're super picky when it comes to those as so many things could go wrong.
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2017-09-16, 19:04:22
Reply #52

lacilaci

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Being able to both design and visualize is really nice niche and it does feel a lot more fulfilling.

But it needs good client who trusts you and has the same taste. When working with finished design from client, you have the certainty they won't fault you for something they designed themselves :- ) Not that it happened recently (it did to us 4 years ago when we were starting but I still remember the fiasco we barely got paid! ) but I am wary of it so I wouldn't take design job just for anyone, we're super picky when it comes to those as so many things could go wrong.

So, what do you tell a client that does not quite understand how you work... But still tells you to do the design and viz. from ground up? Like, let's say a furniture company asking for "a kitchen" :D (the "a kitchen" is all you got to work with).
I asked for some basic layout, reference photos, images, color composition etc... but they're like, we just want some nice pictures *shows pics of some delta tracing kitchens that are wayyy outta their league (design speaking) :D*

2017-09-16, 19:39:49
Reply #53

Juraj

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Being able to both design and visualize is really nice niche and it does feel a lot more fulfilling.

But it needs good client who trusts you and has the same taste. When working with finished design from client, you have the certainty they won't fault you for something they designed themselves :- ) Not that it happened recently (it did to us 4 years ago when we were starting but I still remember the fiasco we barely got paid! ) but I am wary of it so I wouldn't take design job just for anyone, we're super picky when it comes to those as so many things could go wrong.

So, what do you tell a client that does not quite understand how you work... But still tells you to do the design and viz. from ground up? Like, let's say a furniture company asking for "a kitchen" :D (the "a kitchen" is all you got to work with).
I asked for some basic layout, reference photos, images, color composition etc... but they're like, we just want some nice pictures *shows pics of some delta tracing kitchens that are wayyy outta their league (design speaking) :D*

I might not take such client :- ). We only work with leads that come directly to us with proposition that they saw what we do, and they want something like that. It's the first best step in ensuring we are on the same boat in regards to expectations.

But generally we never jump straight into work.. same as you mentioned we ask for as much as they can provide anything, and if it's not enough or if that's now how they want to go about it, then we'll start proposing all that stuff, sending references their way, building possible moodboards,etc. before even touching up 3dsMax.
Even with all this ensured I am still stressed when sending first renderings whether they'll like it or not. So I strongly prefer to build some relationship and continue working with those where things lead towards successful results.

As I replied above, few years ago in beginning of our career with Veronika we took a job that just asked for "something really nice" and lo-behold, our ideas of what that is could NOT be more opposite :- ). It was nightmare and in the end both parties said 'fuck it' and went their way so I am glad that never repeated again. But since then we're being approached by clients who like what we do and come with ideas and moodboards that are really compatible with what we like so this problem vanished.
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2017-09-16, 19:50:35
Reply #54

lacilaci

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"I might not take such client :- )."

Yeah, I turned down some jobs cause the result was unpredictable.... :(

"build some relationship and continue working with those where things lead towards successful results."

Today, at this point in time, I believe this is more important than any other skill (maybe in all the businessess LOL) "building strong relationships"

Anyways, that 50% done tutorial (excluding cgi part even) would be nice to have.... Archviz and CGI generaly needs to set some serious standards, wether small business or freelance and even bigger studios can fail due to non-technical stuff going wrong in the model... So yeah, thanks for advice :)

2017-09-18, 20:40:32
Reply #55

darstellungsart.

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I think everyone here could tell such s atory about a client who refuses to accept a meaningful proposal.
Sometimes you have to accept that the client don't want to have "the best" result but more a result which he likes. We are on the good end of the production chain. We as 3D artists work with clients like architects who have theoreticly a better taste in design as a "normal" person. From my time as an architect i could tell you...it could be worse :D

But as a story i can tell that one client wanted to have a narrow hallway that look like its huge as a living room. We made some proposals and some rough 3d sketches....he didn't like it at all and turned us down...He hired another studio and got EXACTLY the same results we showed him :D .... and yes, we had to write him an letter with a lawyer to get the money he owned us.

Because of such clients it is always a good idea to confirm the working steps with emails. In germany we would say "Wer schreibt der bleibt." (The one who writs stays.)

2017-09-22, 12:31:33
Reply #56

melviso

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Thanks for the breakdowns. Very informative. Great work Juraj and Veronika ;- )


2017-09-22, 16:49:35
Reply #57

Erald

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Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skills, kind sir!

2017-09-24, 16:27:22
Reply #58

artmaknev

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Excellent work, always amazing!

2017-09-25, 08:22:41
Reply #59

Juraj

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Thanks :- ).

I am off for 3 weeks, hopefully I can post another project when I am back.
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2017-09-28, 13:47:28
Reply #60

shortcirkuit

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hey Juraj - may i ask... when i do my interior scenes, i mostly have to really crank down the exposure to -3 or -4 when the sun intensity is at 1.  I often find i have to put the intensity at 0.01 or 0.02 to balance it.  I see that you have the intensity set to 1.0 and your exposure set to over 1.0.  Any reason why you think this is happening?

Keep up the great work mate - huge fan here

2017-10-09, 09:25:04
Reply #61

diorowen

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Hi Juraj,
just wanna ask, when you render for final in 8k,
what's the usual noise level is acceptable for you?

I typically render for under 5% noise level, but the noise is still visible.

Best,
d

2017-10-09, 16:11:35
Reply #62

Juraj

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Sorry guys for late reply, I was 3 weeks in Norway, sleeping in car and just checking FB occasionally on mobile :- )

hey Juraj - may i ask... when i do my interior scenes, i mostly have to really crank down the exposure to -3 or -4 when the sun intensity is at 1.  I often find i have to put the intensity at 0.01 or 0.02 to balance it.  I see that you have the intensity set to 1.0 and your exposure set to over 1.0.  Any reason why you think this is happening?

Keep up the great work mate - huge fan here
Shortcirkuit: Actual EV value is irrelevant, it's scene and light dependent. Default value of Sun&Sky have real photographic intensity, but EV=0 isn't "Sunny F8", but arbitrarily set Corona value where white gets intensity 1.0 with light of intensity 1.0.

What that means in practice is that your default "EV" may be as low as -4 in super bright interior with lot of windows, and it can be 0 or more if the light needs to bounce more. It doesn't affect anything, there is nothing wrong with this value being anywhere.



Hi Juraj,
just wanna ask, when you render for final in 8k,
what's the usual noise level is acceptable for you?

I typically render for under 5% noise level, but the noise is still visible.

Best,
d

It's between 2-4perc. The value fluctuates based on the type of scene because lots of geometric and texture detail can skew the evaluation algorithm. Exteriors are perceptively clean at 3-4 perc. but interiors still feel "dirty" to me at 2perc. and I consider 1.7 +/- to be sweat spot.
It takes endlessly to get there mostly because the current adaptivity disfavors flat smooth (and bright) surfaces, so stuff like walls may be cleaner in comparative terms, but perceptively they are very noisy to human eye, and often with no logic to be noisy in regards to photographic noise in reality (which would never happen in midtones on base ISO). In fact, noisy midtones and especially highlights are what throws off a lot of photorealistic feel away. If they are crystal clear and noise is mostly in textured regions and shadows, you can have really 'burnt' look and it won't feel CGI or unfinished.

So I often wait billion years until it reaches <2perc. and if I feel like it, do a tiny denoise (+/ -0.3) but only if it doesn't feel painterly afterwards.

Crazy stuff: I re-introduce noise in post-production sometimes :- D
« Last Edit: 2017-10-09, 16:28:01 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-10-10, 00:29:57
Reply #63

scottofazphx

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Incredible work, Your techniques and images are great. Look forward to future posts, we all learn from experts like yourself. Thank you for the breakdowns and screenshots.

2017-10-10, 05:11:14
Reply #64

SaY

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Juraj,
where do you usually get the inspirational images for your projects, and for this project in particular?
Thanks

2017-10-10, 11:33:53
Reply #65

Juraj

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Juraj,
where do you usually get the inspirational images for your projects, and for this project in particular?
Thanks

I don't use references directly like this most of the time, and I didn't here. I want to write an article about 'Finding your look' where I would like to discuss this, it could be educational amids the current time where people ask for exact HDRi in hope they can replicate the same look in different project, it just doesn't work like that and it's very frustrating mindset. I was there.

But, I look through immense amount of inspirational images all the time regularly, it builds 'mental library' and elevates your sense for detail, your mind will subconsciously start remembering what all light can do. The usual Archdaily, Dwell, Dezeen, Elle Decor (Scandi, maybe UK or Italian version too, but definitely not the US and German), Facebook/Pinterest/Google, lot's of "Coffee Table" books in our home&office. Lastly, I have my eyes open and I travel constantly to see new cities and lands, and once I am there, I make lot of conscious effort to remember things in both memory and photos :- )
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2017-10-10, 14:19:16
Reply #66

-Ben-Battler-

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Hi Juraj

I don't use references directly like this most of the time, and I didn't here. I want to write an article about 'Finding your look' where I would like to discuss this, it could be educational amids the current time where people ask for exact HDRi in hope they can replicate the same look in different project, it just doesn't work like that and it's very frustrating mindset. I was there.

I'm always in awe when looking at your imagery. I love the naturalistic look you get and would be very interested in such an article.

Another thing that I would love to get some advice out of you: often when I'm creating interior renders the exterior visible through the windows is fairly blown out. This of course depends on the size of the windows and thus the amount of light that is able to brighten up the interior.
I'm always trying to get those highlights back by using a combination of HC and Filmic but I'm never getting as far as I could go in Lightroom for example. Is this just a Corona limitation to keep the look realistic and not drifting too far towards the rightfully mocked "HDR-Look" or is Lightroom using a different algorithm for lifting shadows and/or lowering highlights? Or should I be able to achive this by simply adjusting the curves in the VFB?

Why I'm keeping myself busy with this is because we've got a lot of clients who want so see the exterior while retaining the interior reasonably bright. And when I observe this issue with my own eyes then I have to admit that I clearly see the features of the house next door while sitting inside a room. Obviously the human eye has a crazy dynamic range which is barely matched by DSLRs.

Can you drop your 2 cents on this topic?
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2017-10-10, 14:36:33
Reply #67

Juraj

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Sure.

Human eyes have both rather wide dynamic range capacity and adaptivness. But here is the thing you might not be noticing in regards to the latter. When you stand in interior room and look towards window out, you clearly see what is outside. But did you notice that the very moment your eyes focus on outside, the interior is getting dimmer on outer edges of your vision ? Human eye can make this transition in fraction of second, which is why most people will never notice, we barely notice what's happening at the fringes of our vision.
If your brain would be capable of taking 'screenshot' of full field of view that you're eyes are looking at, you would notice the room isn't exposed so brightly like you would do it in photography or 3D to make the room look nice. It would be at two good stops of light difference.

There is no dynamic range compression that will ever come out that will make it possible to tonemap single image globally to make up for big dynamic range difference. This has nothing to do with 3D, I just took a photo of seashore against backdrop of mountain baclit by Sun. The dynamic range difference between the black mountains occluded and the sun and its reflection on wet beach was easily beyond 16 stops of light. I took the picture in bracket with Sony A7r ii, 35mm DSLR with second largest dynamic range on market (D810/D850 surpass it at base ISO64). No amount of post-production could fix it to reasonable point.
The 'HDR' adaptive tonemapping compressors make for that ugly, uncanny look. Even if they got perfect and got rid of various artifacts (mixed saturation, halos, etc..) it would still look uncanny, and not resemble anything we would like.

The only way to overcome this is through trickery. The technique would be identical in photography as it is in 3D, throwing more light into less illuminated space to equalize the light levels to point where the disparity in dynamic range isn't as obvious.

I actually use very little dynamic range compression in Corona, in fact, less then HC=1.75 in ALL the time. I actually don't use it at all for product shots where I simply just lift midtones through curve instead. Such brutal compression leads to perceptual flatness, a boring and uncanny look.

I don't personally share the wish of some who think renderers would be able to resemble human vision at some point, I think it rather stems from not understanding of how human vision works. VR with adaptive exposure is already life-like, the solution never was in crazy tonemappers.
One more stance that I own is that I embrace how camera captures light. It's more sensitive to it, puts it more into focus. While things aren't as equalized as looked through eyes, I can just read the light so much more, it's so much more there (feeling best captured when photographing catedrals). I am trying to transfer this to our CGI work further. Make it more about the light than about the space alone, something I believe I didn't do right before. Small steps only :- )

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2017-10-10, 14:51:40
Reply #68

-Ben-Battler-

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Awesome, thank you for sharing.

Yeah I think imagery with quite LDR look more pleasant to my eyes too because they have some contrast. I wouldn't have thought that you're using such low HC values, that's insane. Although values above 2.5 don't change much more anyways.

I really appreciate it and would follow closely any discussions on this matter, also in the FStorm vs. Corona tonemapping thread that just turned up.
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2017-10-10, 14:56:57
Reply #69

Juraj

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Awesome, thank you for sharing.

Yeah I think imagery with quite LDR look more pleasant to my eyes too because they have some contrast. I wouldn't have thought that you're using such low HC values, that's insane. Although values above 2.5 don't change much more anyways.

I really appreciate it and would follow closely any discussions on this matter, also in the FStorm vs. Corona tonemapping thread that just turned up.

I still do want better tonemapper :- ) I don't want it to to reduce the scene into flat bland grey tones, but there is reason why people are still raving about "highlights fallof" of analog film. The transition is 'smoooth' so overburnts don't bother you, they're natural but end up looking good.
I really like full filmic because I can tell it what to do about blacks, midtones and highlights. The damn Reinhard just washes things out, it's terrible in every way, and CoronaFilmic is wrong completely, I haven't used it at all.
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2017-10-10, 19:29:10
Reply #70

mitviz

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its nice work, only the parquette flooring doesn't for me, it seems to make the space look chaotic, well the lower half of the space, it would have been better with a more glossy parquette and more contrasty, as is now, for me it just dirties up the room
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2017-10-10, 21:03:46
Reply #71

Juraj

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I'll make sure to tell the architects :- ) Don't want them to repeat such gross mistake.
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2017-10-11, 09:35:27
Reply #72

diorowen

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haha.
Crazy stuff indeed.
Thanks for the answer. I'm still trying to learn, my learning curve doesnt feels like goin up yet.

2017-10-11, 11:14:46
Reply #73

Juraj

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haha.
Crazy stuff indeed.
Thanks for the answer. I'm still trying to learn, my learning curve doesnt feels like goin up yet.

Like in everything, the 'curve' has spikes ;- ) Projects I have on disc are proof there were years where I almost regressed.
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2017-10-11, 11:22:53
Reply #74

maru

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Showing one of the projects which you are particularly unhappy about, and pointing out the things you would do differently today could make a really interesting topic.  :>
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2017-10-11, 11:33:39
Reply #75

Juraj

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Showing one of the projects which you are particularly unhappy about, and pointing out the things you would do differently today could make a really interesting topic.  :>

Heh, I think everyone feels that way about most of their projects. It's the classic 'I am in love with my work' at beginning and then 'This stuff is crap...'. Except you can look after a year and two and really conclude it's rather crap. And at least partly blame it on client but truly know the fault is you :- ).
But I don't know, I might be too vain for such discussion, perhaps from some chips on my shoulder from occasional dig (we get the 'my cousin did the same in 2007' without words occasionally esp. from slovaks ;- ) Sounds a bit too self-deprecating, and this is still a business so maintaining some public image is necessary.

But perhaps I could do that in general terms, broadly speaking, that could work I think. It's interesting because I myself don't know why certain projects went so good and others became so mediocre, it definitely never was laziness.
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