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Messages - Juraj

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Hardware / Re: New PC Build AMD Ryzen 7950X VS 7960X
« on: Yesterday at 10:38:15 »
7960X wouldn't justify the cost of motherboard and RDIMM memory as you correctly identified. Also the next Ryzen later this year through IPC gains will catch up to it at less cores (and much faster single-thread).
Memory amount is no longer issue either, as even mainstream platforms like Ryzen support 192GB memory. So the Threadripper only matters if you do a lot of rendering on your workstation (I for example don't as I offload everything longer than 5 minutes tests onto dedicated farm node. And with IR Denoising, the multi-thread advantage isn't felt either).

Now 7950X and 7970X would be different discussion, but it will introduce a magnitude of cost different to those two builds. Threadripper is now simply as costly as any previous server builds used to be.

It's quite tough choice honestly today. Easy to build lot of arguments for one or other, but in the end, it's mostly money question.

Oh I never cared for specific number. Laptops run for 105C for last decade and they do ("mostly") fine. At worst, you will shorten their lifespan from two decades to single decade..

With desktops, it's mostly about using the temps to gauge potential for additional performance (or silence).

But temps in fifties.. that's a bit miraculous :- ) 3990X/5990WX can run in 60s for simple multi-threaded tasks (like Corona rendering when not doing denoising or other demanding tasks). But mid-50s?
Maybe really good silicon lottery, or good room ambient (my room very quickly gets into 25C... even with all heating turned off and windows open in middle of December).

So the 7980X perhaps is really good chip in this regard and may easily eat lot more than stock 350.

But then the general temps I see on Reddit are quite bit worse in general compared to 3xxx and 5xxx series, which would make sense for Zen4 chips.

Threadripper and AMD in general always had issues with reporting accurate measurements with all the Tctl/Tdie and Offsets being taken into account differently by different applications. Ryzen Master vs HWiNfo vs HWMonitor, etc.

Hardware / Re: AMD Threadripper 7970x cooler
« on: 2024-02-23, 13:23:18 »
I would like to point out that one reason ProSiphon scores often well is its stock configuration compared to competition.

It comes with two high-pressure high-rpm fans stuck to very dense "radiator", making it quite loud. When noise-normalized (measuring how each cooler does for example with 50dB noise output), it didn't actually even beat Noctua UH-14s sTRX (remembering KitGuru or Guru3D charts).

Put two 3000RPM fans onto UH-14s and you will see some improvement there as well :- ). Although less since the fin density is optimized for lower pressure/higher airflow, so even adding second fan doesn't do that much (and increases turbulence. There is reason why Noctua by stock adds two fans onto thicker, high-density heatsinks like the U12A series).

There are only few fitting AIOs, Enermax (Liqtech and Toughliquid) and Silverstone IceGem for example. I believe they are manufactured by same OEM, chinese Apaltec, infamous for poor quality control. People still use them and some successfully for years if you keep replacing (often from day-1 ideally) the coolant inside. That is kind of hassle since the point of AIO is simplicity and avoiding the use of building custom open-loop. But that's it.
Looks like Eisbaer Pro Aurora might be something to look into. I know nothing about that one. Eisbaer has fairly good reputation.

There are few air-cooler variants on market meant for 4U racks, but they will offer poor performance/noise ratio compared to U14s (i.e same performance but 50perc. worse noise).

That leaves us here: It's been what..6 years with Threadripper on market? And there really is only single goldilocks cooler, U14s. It's strange... but it is what it is.

Checked the 7970X temps, yeah that's not doing well. So putting that idea on ice.

Threadripper with 8-dies like the 64/96C is more reasonable choice. Your reported temps still seems fairly weird, I haven't see anyone report anything that low. How are you reading/measuring these?

I don't think you will see any dramatic boost :- ) Threadripper is already fastest at multi-threaded workflow with low-voltage memory. For example, 3990X stock (no PBO) can achieve 16 seconds easily with stock JEDEC 2400 MT/s memory. OC-ing to 3200 MT/s, lower timings, and upping the voltage to 1.35/1.4 will bring the score to 17 seconds :- ). So, slower. Really, the CPU isn't neither bandwidth nor latency limited with most multi-threaded tasks. Oppositely, fast memory is taxing on the IMC.

You will see massive benefits when gaming at 1080px ;- ). Fast memory is really mostly feel-good thing in benchmarks, zero difference in reality for almost everything. The only people who think it makes drastic difference to their lives are terminally online youtubers and redditors.


Do you feel the 7980X to be lot more fluent/smooth/responsive than 3990X in 3dsMax or 3dsMax/Corona IR ?

I am debating changing my older 3990X into "mobile" (lol) workstation, or making 7970/7980X into one.
I am spending some time in fairly remote locations these year and not even Star Link is fast enough for sending the volume of scene to my home render-farm, so I can't get by alone on laptop anymore again.

How did the G.Skill installation go, select DOCP and zero issues running at overlock?

I am wondering how responsive would something like 7970X (32-cores being less trouble-some for single-thread tasks) be if given like 500W+ of juice alone. 15W per core, no scheduler shenanigans, running 5Ghz all-core potentially :- )

Hardware / Re: New Build options - mobility vs. utility
« on: 2024-02-11, 23:24:03 »
Yeah sadly OLED was made in laptop size only as big as 16" 16:10, I have one in the Dell Precision and it's stunning with its seamless glossy cover. 60HZ only, but 450Nits stable for SDR content. Just amazing.
My older Razer Blade Pro 17" have 17" glossy 4K IPS panels, very deep blacks and quite high contrast for IPS (close to 1500:1), but after that, most non-Apple manufacturers stopped with glossy high-dpi panels outside of the few OLED 16" screens. Like Precision or ProArt,etc..

All 18" panels right now are 2560:1600 16:10 IPS panels only except for one 4K one. Few are Mini-Led backlit though, but all are matte. Zero 17"/18" OLEDs on market.

Yep, workstation ones like the Precision have insane cost, esp. the CAMM memory units instead of SODIMM. Couple with fact how poorly they cool, they're just terrible deal.
Not really freelance friendly option.

Razer Blade 18 hasn't actually been finalized yet, they're still deciding what option to use. Intel sent 16" prototypes to ambassadors since that one is using last years 4K/2K (switch) IPS Mini-Led screen.
Previous year B18 had 2560/1600 non mini-led screen and I think they're deciding which display to use.

But since 2023 vs 2024 are perfomance was identical. Same 4xxx nVidia GPU, and Intel 13xx HX vs 14xx HX have no performance difference in practice.
They're the same laptops as last year.

You don't need the glowing snake if you get the silver studio edition of Razer Blade :- ). They're identical today, just different color, looks even more like Macbook now that they have black keyboards on silver body (few years ago Razer Studio used white keyboard, looked gimmicky and was hard to read).

Razer Blade is the only tolerable design in Windows laptops world sadly, it is what it is... It's why I never sold my old Razer, I love my 2022 with glossy 4K 17" 120HZ panel, it's beautiful. My wife Veronika also kept her 2021 15" 4K Glossy OLED. We already use much more powerful laptops for work but there is something about the combination of clean look and beautiful displays that most Windows laptops don't have.
Sadly no Razer Blade 16/18" use OLED or even Glossy finish panels. Maybe in next two years. OLED is getting very strong this year in mainstream 27"/32" monitor space finally, so it will come back to laptops in full force again.
Right now, for some reason, only ultra-books and workstations get OLEDs.

Yup, the Ryzen 7945HX is amazing if you can get it in laptop you like and one that doesn't use soldered memory slot. This has always been AMD laptops issue. Not enough of them on market.

Nothing officially supports 48GB memory SODDIMs on paper, they came to market like last summer. But they should work.

For reviews, Notebookcheck have quite unbiased reviews in that they just publish 20 A4 pages of almost useless data and you can just make your own takeaway :- ).
Laptops are pretty much about making a compromise you will be happy with. They're all pretty damn good today, just ugly and often very expensive. But they all do the job.

Hardware / Re: New Build options - mobility vs. utility
« on: 2024-02-11, 19:43:00 »
Hey there, many times I had similar dilemma :- ) The best answer really changes through years.`

(I try to be impartial in my answer below, but I want to note that I receive few free laptops from Intel here and there. But I built plenty of other computers myself, from SFFPCs to big server-builds, so I can compare stuff from experience.)

5 years ago I think, laptops were really weak (although there were few desktop Ryzen in ECO mode (65W) put into few Clevo chassis), so I built portable SFFPC with Cerberus-X and put 18-core i9 into it, was still bit weaker than my 32-core Threadripper at that time, but so much more powerful than any laptop on market. This was quite heavy SFFPC and it wasn't easy to lug around. The really small SFFPC were impractical in shape and only supported ITX boards, which mean 2x32GB ram limit, too little. Nowadays, 2x48GB ram is plenty for ITX boards and mainstream laptops since 96 is quite bit closer to 128 than 64GB was.

2 years ago, Intel came with HX chips, effectively desktop CPUs in laptop. Shortly after, AMD came with their own HX, which is lot more energy efficient :- ). But there are few laptops with it only, mainly Lenovo Legion series. I have 12950HX Dell Precision 16, 13950HX MSI Titan GT77, and will probably get Razer Blade 18 14950HX at some point.

My observations:
- These laptops are really powerful, the CPU chips themselves are absolutely identical to desktops. But that depends on chassis and how much they can supply power and cooling. For example, the Dell Precision is rather thick and heavy workstation (not the XPS-body style, the big-body version), but has rather weak cooling, so it's like 40perc. weaker than my MSI Titan.
- They are very loud if you set them to desktop performance. As in, people will be angry at you in office :- ). You can put on noise-cancelling headphones on. But you can just keep swapping between performance profiles and keep the laptop reasonably silent for most work, and set it on maximum only when you need it.

My MSI Titan, is big, ugly, plastic and loud. But it's otherwise absolutely identical in performance to 13900K, or 7950X, etc.. Engineering marvel. So the only time it would make sense for me to build SFFPC, is to build mini-Threadripper. Because mainstream CPUs don't outperform HX-series in big-body laptops like the Titan.
Medium-body laptops like Razer Blade are slighly more compromise, but they are more portable and easier on eyes (nice metal chassis, clean design, better display calibration from factory,..).

Unfortunately, all laptops of this sort are now like 4000-5000 Euro if you also want high-vram GPU before you even upgrade ram to 2x48GB.

Asus Strix and Lenovo Legion are most reasonably priced and have best performance/price value. Lenovo has better quality control. MSI and Razer are really expensive, with MSI Titan-series you get desktop performance (it's like the only laptop with 350W power delivery, insane thing), with Razer you get the only Macbook style body.

Laptops are imho much better than SFFPCs since you also get a display with them, so the moment you plug into external 27" monitor in office or elsewhere, you get free side monitor on the laptop itself.
SFFPC really only make sense if you want to maximize GPU performance, so they're really more like niche gaming builds. If you follow the Reddit/r/sffpc, then you know the audience :- ). 90perc. of them are super impractical and barely cost effective against laptop and unless they have 280mm AIO on CPU, the CPU performance is often just as laptop, so it's just the GPU working as intended.

I remember trying to trick this (in Max though) by using ShadowCatcher>RaySwitch>TonemapControl in DirectlyVisible Slot. But I don't remember how well it worked (or didn't work).

Gallery / Re: Nolite
« on: 2024-02-06, 12:59:53 »
Killer carpet :- )

That would be behind the artificial cap of 4 RDIMM slots :- ) ?

Peak market segmentation, though it's logical and more like thrown bone to the HEDT crowd. Can't complain, they could have just skipped the non-pro stuff totally and everyone would be worse off.
I am bit sad the workstation market is back in the 10 000 Euro build segment like 7-8 years ago, but this come and goes in circles. Everything is expensive now, not much can be done.

1950X/2990WX were peak affordability. 3xxx were peak solid value/performance. 5xxx is not worth mentioning in any way. 7xxx is excellent performer, but back to high prices mostly due to whole package (motherboard + memory).

With everyone on GPUs though nowadays, not much excitement on internet for these chips anymore.

Not many kickass builds in this thread anymore either. Even I am not very excited about cpus, but that is because they've long surpassed my work capability and I am only limited by shitty single-threaded softwares like Max and my own inefficiency.

Is it because the TRX50 is now derived from WRX90 directly, just stripped of channels and lanes?

That will probably go for the physical boards themselves, paying same price and one gives you overclocking and other gives you the bigger physical layout for more dimms and pci cards.
In the end, you're just saying bit of money with non-WX chips.

Damn, I need to update my RDIMM knowledge before I confuse people :- ) Super sorry about this.
Anyway, looks like Threadrippers 7xxx even non-pro require RDIMM memory, so for G.Skill, that would be their Zeta R-series, not the Z5 series.

And yup, that's the

1600 USD you quoted above, uff.

You can always go for generic stuff like (1000 USD for 256GB DDR5 RDIMM 5600)
But I would probably buy the G.Skill for those Samsung ICs if I was building state-of-art workstation.

Wrong advice from me ;- ) Ignore.

G.Skill Trident Z5 series uses Samsung chips, and is among probably the most high-end kits on market right now. I can't imagine it not working :- ) If these wouldn't, none would.

That doesn't mean it will run at their XMPP/DOCP settings, and G.Skill validated those numbers for Intel Alder-Lake desktops. So you will be on your own to figure out the best stable configuration.

Is the dual Xeon 8480 ES, QS or Retail stepping? My older dual 8280s are extremely consistent in performance with my 3990X Threadripper for example.

It's been long time since I've used ES/QS builds, but a lot of shenanigans can happen between Windows Scheduler, Board microcode, Chipset drivers that non-retail steppings can be very sensitive to (unless manufacturers are using some more precautions, but the fault can be with motherboards as well).

What can be done to bypass these limitations is the old trick Vlado from Vray suggested almost 10 years ago, is to run multiple rendering sessions at same time. I've never personally done it, so not sure what is the best way today, I personally would try ProcessLasso, but experimentation is needed.

Of course, highly sub-optimal for single-renders, but doable solution for animations. And of course super-bad solution for workstation, but then dual-builds, even retail are generally poor workstations today.

Should we start ES/QS build thread btw :- ) ? Looks like golden age for this is upon us again lol! Lot more complicated situation with motherboards, but so many Epycs and Xeons and memory is very reasonable priced. Sadly I no longer need render-farm for my studio needs but I always loved building them.

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