Poll

3 features you want the most:

Tiles map
31 (6.7%)
Further imrpovements to Corona Image Editor
8 (1.7%)
Significantly faster DOF (Depth of Field) rendering
25 (5.4%)
Sketch/Toon/Stylized shader
29 (6.2%)
Dedicated CarPaint Shader
7 (1.5%)
Dedicated fabrics shader
27 (5.8%)
Lightmix extended to materials, textures, ...
27 (5.8%)
Interactive rendering in 3ds max viewport (with gizmos, object selection, manipulation, ...)
16 (3.4%)
Rendering memory usage improvements
16 (3.4%)
Speed of rendering improvements
42 (9%)
Speed of interactive rendering improvements specifically
31 (6.7%)
GPU/Hybrid rendering
88 (18.9%)
Stability improvements (bug fixes)
12 (2.6%)
Improvements to caustics
23 (4.9%)
Thin film/coating shader
5 (1.1%)
Parsing performance optimization (e.g. for animations)
40 (8.6%)
New and better frame buffer (docked and floating)
23 (4.9%)
Further improvements to Chaos Scatter
15 (3.2%)

Total Members Voted: 178

Author Topic: The most wanted feature?  (Read 524549 times)

2020-03-02, 18:05:25
Reply #780

JViz

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OMG we are all getting banned, you said too much guys
Although a purist, my work is anything but.
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2020-03-02, 18:15:52
Reply #781

Jpjapers

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As a note on the roadmap, as the roadmap clearly says, it is not WHAT will happen, but what we are planning. And as with everything in life, plans change, and when that happens, we update the roadmap. This is why it's important to keep a watch on it, and not just glance at it when 5 comes out to see what 6 will have, as what 6 will have will change (e.g. we start development and find it will take longer than expected; we find something not on the roadmap that can be quickly integrated so we add it; and so on).

Just that I've seen some people basically complain that the roadmap changes, which is a misunderstanding on what the roadmap is.

You're absolutely right in updating the roadmap as things progress. Im sure most people here completely understand that things change and you have to stay agile and adaptive because otherwise you just waste your own time.

I think the main cause of upset is coming from the fact that the roadmap always changes to remove features that the user base blatantly think should be a priority, but it never seems to go the other way.

I might be wrong, but i dont think ive seen it change to prioritise the things that users want the most, over what the devs think we should have (Yes there are alot of Corona users not using these forums) But then whats the need in having the poll if your most vocal and active users arent having any real input especially when user requests have been largely the same since v2.

Theres a reason people use corona over other engines and so cherry picking features and techniques from other engines instead of picking features users are telling you they want or need, seems a little senseless. Yes, the features listed under v6 should make corona faster, but they don't necessarily make the overall workflow easier or more interoperable with other software (for example realtime engines and other PBR-centered tools) and increasingly, the render isnt the end of the pipeline.

Ill still look forward to V6 as always and will actively use the RC's to help you guys get it to release though because even if the features arent exactly what the user base wants, at least they can be bug free!
« Last Edit: 2020-03-02, 18:34:11 by Jpjapers »

2020-03-02, 18:26:42
Reply #782

TomG

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Are you a coder, your logic is too flawed for a coder.
(note to humanity, this is not an attack on his personality, I'm pointing out the flaws in his logic which is my OPINION)
Don't shoot yourself in the foot again, you just did twice don't make them thrice.
One: reading your argument about engines borrowing features from each other, (read it guys) they'll become, eventually, indistinguishable, ie become one. I know you'll say they develope separately, but so far we've seen features that set them apart... cancelled.

Two: are you redefining what a roadmap is? A roadmap is a plan, cool! You're not sticking to the plan. Is it fair to say you're not sticking to the plan?

Jeeez.
I didn't mean for my comments to hit so deep to the point the entire team comes after me, so I'm sorry, and I have full faith that you (vray team and corona team) will be able to outsmart the one Russian guy developing fstorm from the backseat of his car.

Yep, I was a coder in the past :)

Nope, borrowing features doesn't mean they will become the same, because not ALL features are borrowed. So, they will always be distinct differences. Not only that, how something is implemented may be different too, because with Corona we believe in ease of use, and V-Ray believes in maximum flexibility, so there's a philosophy behind each engine that remains distinct (and always will remain distinct).

And on the plan, it's not that we aren't sticking to it, it's that plans change, and we like to keep you informed as soon as we can on what we are planning, and as soon as we can on when plans change. It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't of course, because if we tell people and plans change they get upset, and the other option is not to tell people, in which case they get upset. Or the third option, stick to the plan just because we said it, which would hamstring development agility. So I guess it's damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont-damned-if-you-do-the-other-thing in fact :)
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
Product Manager | contact us

2020-03-02, 18:29:54
Reply #783

TomG

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PS - we also understand the hazards of all possible ways of handling a roadmap, and accept those hazards. We still think this is the best possible solution, though it still means people will get upset sometimes (but that's true of every solution, so, we firmly believe in keeping everyone informed as early as possible, and updating that as early as possible when things change).
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
Product Manager | contact us

2020-03-02, 18:34:01
Reply #784

bluebox

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You're absolutely right in updating the roadmap as things progress. Im sure most people here completely understand that things change and you have to stay agile and adaptive because otherwise you just waste your own time.

Curious to know how is that a waste of time. This is a manner of holding to your word or not. Hackathon or not the things that emerged just recently could as well get implemented later on.
Current approach means we do not get the features majority of people voted for for about a year. 6-7mo - V6 development, as life shows 3mo code cleanup V7, 1-2mo before V8 dailies start showing up.
Fair ? Personally dont think so.

2020-03-02, 18:36:10
Reply #785

Jpjapers

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<snip>


Curious to know how is that a waste of time. This is a manner of holding to your word or not. Hackathon or not the things that emerged just recently could as well get implemented later on.
Current approach means we do not get the features majority of people voted for for about a year. 6-7mo - V6 development, as life shows 3mo code cleanup V7, 1-2mo before V8 dailies start showing up.
Fair ? Personally dont think so.

Well say for instance you put something on the roadmap and then discover that vray devs researched it and it cant be done the way you initially though it could. Of perhaps autodesk makes a change in a max update that means a feature is no longer needed or has to be implemented differently. Im not disagreeing with you that user features dont usually get prioritised. Like i said in my post above...

Quote
I think the main cause of upset is coming from the fact that the roadmap always changes to remove features that the user base blatantly think should be a priority, but it never seems to go the other way.

I might be wrong, but i dont think ive seen it change to prioritise the things that users want the most, over what the devs think we should have (Yes there are alot of Corona users not using these forums) But then whats the need in having the poll if your most vocal and active users arent having any real input especially when user requests have been largely the same since v2.

2020-03-02, 18:37:13
Reply #786

bluebox

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You're absolutely right in updating the roadmap as things progress. Im sure most people here completely understand that things change and you have to stay agile and adaptive because otherwise you just waste your own time.

Curious to know how is that a waste of time. This is a manner of holding to your word or not. Hackathon or not the things that emerged just recently could as well get implemented later on.
Current approach means we do not get the features majority of people voted for for about a year. 6-7mo - V6 development, as life shows 3mo code cleanup V7, 1-2mo before V8 dailies start showing up.
Fair ? Personally dont think so.

Well say for instance you put something on the roadmap and then discover that vray devs researched it and it cant be done the way you initially though it could. Of perhaps autodesk makes a change in a max update that means a feature is no longer needed or has to be implemented differently.

You're talking hypothetical. I'm talking what is acctually happening here.

2020-03-02, 18:38:28
Reply #787

TomG

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But the roadmap is not "our word" - it's made quite clear it is our current plans, and subject to change at any time, and it does not in any way represent a promise or commitment - just that we are trying to keep you informed of what is coming and when, to the best of our knowledge and decisions at any particular time. That's where I think people misunderstand the purpose of the roadmap.
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
Product Manager | contact us

2020-03-02, 18:39:28
Reply #788

Jpjapers

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You're talking hypothetical. I'm talking what is acctually happening here.


I understand, The overall concept of updating a roadmap though, is sound in principle.

2020-03-02, 18:50:38
Reply #789

bluebox

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Look's like we won't come to an agreement on the roadmap manner.

Current approach means we do not get the features majority of people voted for for about a year.

But the above is of no less importance than the frequent roadmap changes, and corelates with the roadmap itself. You think it is also a no-biggie right Tom ?

2020-03-02, 18:56:41
Reply #790

JViz

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Are you a coder, your logic is too flawed for a coder.
(note to humanity, this is not an attack on his personality, I'm pointing out the flaws in his logic which is my OPINION)
Don't shoot yourself in the foot again, you just did twice don't make them thrice.
One: reading your argument about engines borrowing features from each other, (read it guys) they'll become, eventually, indistinguishable, ie become one. I know you'll say they develope separately, but so far we've seen features that set them apart... cancelled.

Two: are you redefining what a roadmap is? A roadmap is a plan, cool! You're not sticking to the plan. Is it fair to say you're not sticking to the plan?

Jeeez.
I didn't mean for my comments to hit so deep to the point the entire team comes after me, so I'm sorry, and I have full faith that you (vray team and corona team) will be able to outsmart the one Russian guy developing fstorm from the backseat of his car.

Yep, I was a coder in the past :)

Nope, borrowing features doesn't mean they will become the same, because not ALL features are borrowed. So, they will always be distinct differences. Not only that, how something is implemented may be different too, because with Corona we believe in ease of use, and V-Ray believes in maximum flexibility, so there's a philosophy behind each engine that remains distinct (and always will remain distinct).

And on the plan, it's not that we aren't sticking to it, it's that plans change, and we like to keep you informed as soon as we can on what we are planning, and as soon as we can on when plans change. It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't of course, because if we tell people and plans change they get upset, and the other option is not to tell people, in which case they get upset. Or the third option, stick to the plan just because we said it, which would hamstring development agility. So I guess it's damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont-damned-if-you-do-the-other-thing in fact :)

I'm gonna stop wasting my time. i like your smile though.
Although a purist, my work is anything but.
https://www.behance.net/ImageInnate

2020-03-02, 19:01:29
Reply #791

TomG

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Look's like we won't come to an agreement on the roadmap manner.

Current approach means we do not get the features majority of people voted for for about a year.

But the above is of no less importance than the frequent roadmap changes, and corelates with the roadmap itself. You think it is also a no-biggie right Tom ?

Nobody has said any of this is "no biggie". We take all feature requests seriously, and we take updating the roadmap seriously. Nothing here is dismissive of any of that. It's just the truth about what the roadmap is, why it changes, and why feature lists change - that's been discussed before, as to the epic number of different factors that developers have to take into account when deciding what is going to go into one version and what will have to wait for later, so I won't cover the same ground again. I will just say that ALL decisions are always taken very seriously, and none of it is ever "no biggie" (so, please, don't put words into my mouth :) ).
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
Product Manager | contact us

2020-03-02, 19:20:24
Reply #792

bluebox

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Well. I do not consider myself a fanboy, not in any manner. Just weighting pros and cons.
Not being a fanboy, and just a paying consumer in "fair SAAS" model I do feel that by paying the fee that amongst current active licence and other things covers further development of the engine I have the right to know what I'm paying for. Also development-vise.

Considering the above I do believe that roadmap should be a roadmap, not a bag of ideas subject to change at any time because then how am I to predict the development direction of the engine and whether or not I still want to partly-fund the development of something that does not potentially allign with my vision of the software I need?
Taking the above into account is frequently changing "the plans" fair ? Dont think so.

Plans/loose ideas should be what they are called and you have a column for those on Trello. Core features of upcoming version should be decided before it goes into development and should be not moveable. Core features should be those that the user base votes for.
Otherwise from my POV there is no dialogue between the userbase and the development team. And it used to be the opposite which saddens me.

2020-03-02, 20:08:14
Reply #793

lolec

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Corona team: as someone who works more on your side of things (making products) than the user's side, I completely understand the complexities and compromises behind decisions like this.

But I've also learned a lot about communication with customers, so I hope this helps you.

If people think the roadmap means as a promise, the uncomfortable truth is that is what it means. It doesn't really matter what was your original intention, it doesn't matter if that makes sense or not from a development standpoint (I know I would seldomly make promises, as the development process is messy by nature) ANY miscommunication is your fault, or rather, your responsibility to fix. It serves no purpose to say "well, that is not what the roadmap is for" People's interpretation of your actions become reality, regardless of how close or far they are from the truth.

You may say internally BUT WE EXPLICITLY SAY THIS MIGHT CHANGE! It doesn't matter. If people understand something else, you need to do something different. The customer is always right in the very real sense that what the customer believes becomes their reality, so you need to accept that.

I won't even question your intentions, I know decisions are a delicate balance of thousands of factors and I know you are trying your best. I trust capitalism and I know in the long term the best for your company will closely align with what customers want. I also know you have orders of magnitude more information than us. Market trends, future developments, Long term strategy, Usage statistics etc.  People in the forum represent only a small portion of the data, a very important portion, but not absolute.

So, even though my most wanted features are not part of V6 (PBR and tone mapping) I trust the vision of the product, that vision has consistently yielded good results over the years.

My advice to you is to make an even bigger effort in communicating that vision, and how your decisions work towards the vision,  It might seem redundant as most of that is obvious to you, day to day stuff, but user don't have access to that information.

Another advice (and this might be difficult because of corporate strategy, but think it's worth it) is to make development and experimentation exciting to users. I think Fstorm does an AMAZING job at this. That engine is not production-ready, it lacks essential features, but the developer is good at making people feel excited about what is to come. You can see how most of the "most wanted features" are borrowed from Fstorm. He makes people excited through good communication. 

Example: You say you developed a  new sky system that works amazingly well. We've seen 0 evidence of that. No one is excited about that. You can make us excited with a couple of posts showing how that produces better images.

I hope this helps :)



 

2020-03-02, 20:25:38
Reply #794

TomG

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We do share the results and the differences they make, as time allows (and once development has progressed far enough) - see the thread about the new adaptive solver for environments for example, which has examples from us, and from users as they test it in the daily build.

As for the roadmap, well, the discussion has come up before, and it's really either have one, or not have one. We think it is better to have one, despite people misinterpreting what it means or getting disappointed if it changes - otherwise, we'll just have to stay silent until a feature is done, complete, and definitely out, which we don't want to do. Any other route, no matter how well you try to explain it or say what it is, always has some element of disappointment or misunderstanding, and we can live with that, as we prefer to keep those informed who do understand what it all means :)
Tom Grimes | chaos-corona.com
Product Manager | contact us