Author Topic: Juraj's Renderings thread  (Read 491936 times)

2016-09-16, 18:02:21
Reply #435

Paul Springer

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Juraj, can we go back to topic from a few pages ago for quickie question as relates to EXPOSURE:  Your opinion, best practice workflow in Corona Frame Buffer is to set exposure and leave compression&contrast to 1.00?  (linear) which results maybe on darker side (scene specific+-) of final finished product exposure - because trying to avoid burnout.   

THEN bring back up exposure in VFB+ &/or post to taste?. 

DO you know if MSI consideration based on base exposure (not revised with highlight compressing)? 

Thanks Juraj

2016-09-16, 18:55:03
Reply #436

Juraj

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Exposure is definitely involved in MSI calculations, I think I asked that Ondra once. But I don't know how exactly that works, so my idea is that if you underexpose, MSI might cut away more than it would when compared to neutral/average luminance exposure.

Adaptivity is also I believe, though again, I am not knowledgeable how. But I can tell you I never render (severely) under-exposed. You do that, rise the luminance in post, and find out your black parts are noisy. Actually, very similar behavior to modern day CMOS chips in DSLRs. To get the best quality/dynamic range out of modern day camera, you render 1 stop higher :- ) and tone down in post. This way you get clean dark parts. That's what I do wit my D800. With Corona I render roughly what looks to me like neutral EV.

I render with no-post in Corona framebuffer because I use (used up till now) VFB+ to tonemap. Anyway, I am currently installing 1.5 daily so these things might change once again.

I am getting bit uneasy about delaying any write-up into how I actually do post-production, because it's not stable. I change this stuff routinely like every second month, I approach each project differently, for no other reason than to experiment and self-doubt.

What I am really after is emulate photographic workflow 1:1. I don't want brutal dynamic range and tonemapping, the dream of HDR photographers and CGI scientists, I just want load my image in ACR/Lightroom and pretend I am doing .raw file development. At some times, I almost try hysterically odd measures to reach this point :- ) If I ever reach something that satisfies me roughly, you'll hear of it :- ).
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2016-09-17, 09:54:34
Reply #437

Ałtaj

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Can i ask where did u get from wooden floors textures in 2 viz above?

2016-09-17, 13:35:06
Reply #438

Juraj

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Which ones ?

99perc. of my flooring is modifed CG-Source. The old parisian apartment is from BBB3Viz.
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2016-09-17, 15:09:42
Reply #439

Edvinas

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Juraj,

Very curious about your position for VR. You seem to be very tight about UE4 which is understandable due to workflow and hardware things at the moment. But why not using VR for simple panoramic images? Creating tours? My clients go wild about this, this is a huge step forwards, IMHO, why would you ignore that? :)
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2016-09-17, 15:41:54
Reply #440

Juraj

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Yeah, I guess that will pick-up.

But what I am ignoring ? Majority of work ordered from me are still images. If someone ordered it we would do it, but otherwise I don't propose it much, not a biggest fan of it.

Will eventually jump to true walkthroughs, but hard to do it all in our capacity. Far too much work, far too little time.

The single 360 I did in spare time gave the attention of LYTRO start-up guys though :- )
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2016-09-18, 11:09:04
Reply #441

Majeranek

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Juraj

Could you reveal to us a little bit of a magic which lies behind that sofa shader?
http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2_2560px.jpg

I'm really curious how did you manage to make that whitening in a place where someone would sit. That looks really good.

Do you add any reflection layer to fabrics? I personally always struggle with that, when I'm adding reflection layer fabrics start to look really strange and unnatural.
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2016-09-18, 14:42:35
Reply #442

Juraj

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Hi,

it's simple, I even had somewhere a screenshot, which I would have to find. It's a fallof, but broken by mask ( so it's nested together in composite node ).

The idea is that as grazing angle approaches, the microfibres catch light but only if they're are in correct direction. I think the fallof is nested twice, one for softer overall gradient, and then one stronger grazing one.

In this particular render there wasn't reflection, or maybe only super weak. With PBR shader I would add some though.
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2016-09-18, 23:16:24
Reply #443

Majeranek

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Thanks for the information.
I did some tests and that method works just fine :)
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2016-09-19, 13:51:23
Reply #444

Dionysios.TS

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Exposure is definitely involved in MSI calculations, I think I asked that Ondra once. But I don't know how exactly that works, so my idea is that if you underexpose, MSI might cut away more than it would when compared to neutral/average luminance exposure.

Adaptivity is also I believe, though again, I am not knowledgeable how. But I can tell you I never render (severely) under-exposed. You do that, rise the luminance in post, and find out your black parts are noisy. Actually, very similar behavior to modern day CMOS chips in DSLRs. To get the best quality/dynamic range out of modern day camera, you render 1 stop higher :- ) and tone down in post. This way you get clean dark parts. That's what I do wit my D800. With Corona I render roughly what looks to me like neutral EV.

I render with no-post in Corona framebuffer because I use (used up till now) VFB+ to tonemap. Anyway, I am currently installing 1.5 daily so these things might change once again.

I am getting bit uneasy about delaying any write-up into how I actually do post-production, because it's not stable. I change this stuff routinely like every second month, I approach each project differently, for no other reason than to experiment and self-doubt.

What I am really after is emulate photographic workflow 1:1. I don't want brutal dynamic range and tonemapping, the dream of HDR photographers and CGI scientists, I just want load my image in ACR/Lightroom and pretend I am doing .raw file development. At some times, I almost try hysterically odd measures to reach this point :- ) If I ever reach something that satisfies me roughly, you'll hear of it :- ).

Hi Juraj, first of all congratulations for your excellent work!

The last two years I am trying constantly to find a good photographic workflow, but still I am not very satisfied. I tried ArionFX in the past which in the first hand is great but I always noticed strange saturation in almost all my images during the tone mapping process so I gave up with it. I then thought to output in OpenEXR and in PS save to TIFF 32bit and do all my tone mapping and color correction job in Lightroom which I personally love a lot. Now to complicate things, the Corona team put the filmic curves in VFB which I like a lot so I am confused with which workflow should stuck with! :)

I am still having battles and doubts about the output method from Corona VFB and would be nice to discuss about it here if you want.

Keep up your great work!

Dionysios -

2016-09-19, 15:40:32
Reply #445

Juraj

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To add on confusion, I installed 1.5 daily only yesterday and I somehow dislike the filmic there. I hadn't yet done any comparison but it looked bad in interiors. I went back to Reinhard (8) in this particular case. I guess no single filmic curve can be ideal for all situations. For scenes without too many dynamic range spikes ( anything that's not interior ) default filmic is great because it retains large portion of midtones linear. But for interior, the clamp happens too high, and the linear midtones end up looking disjointed with the clamped top. Saturated and odd.

I also dislike ArionFX a lot, it has every single ugly tonemapper on market that ever existed. ( saturation, halos,etc.. ) they are very hard to use with too many settings. Both global and local versions. It would take too much tinkering to come up with something natural.

Yes I am aware some renown industry professionals have good results with them, but their results aren't what I would call natural, but instead the popular VintageKodak/Instagram/"but it's oh so photoreal" look. Try to apply it to clean, bright interior and it shows its ugly side.

I also like Lightroom a lot, it is btw the same engine as in ACR in Photoshop, it works identically, same toolset. And ACR freaks out with 32bit files if you use 2012 process (it's possible to get unchanged flat look using the 2010 but it's 100perc. guarantee either).
« Last Edit: 2016-09-19, 16:13:48 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2016-09-19, 16:23:34
Reply #446

Dionysios.TS

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To add on confusion, I installed 1.5 daily only yesterday and I somehow dislike the filmic there. I hadn't yet done any comparison but it looked bad in interiors. I went back to Reinhard (8) in this particular case. I guess no single filmic curve can be ideal for all situations. For scenes without too many dynamic range spikes ( anything that's not interior ) default filmic is great because it retains large portion of midtones linear. But for interior, the clamp happens too high, and the linear midtones end up looking disjointed with the clamped top. Saturated and odd.

I also dislike ArionFX a lot, it has every single ugly tonemapper on market that ever existed. ( saturation, halos,etc.. ) they are very hard to use with too many settings. Both global and local versions. It would take too much tinkering to come up with something natural.

Yes I am aware some renown industry professionals have good results with them, but their results aren't what I would call natural, but instead the popular VintageKodak/Instagram/"but it's oh so photoreal" look. Try to apply it to clean, bright interior and it shows its ugly side.

I also like Lightroom a lot, it is btw the same engine as in ACR in Photoshop, it works identically, same toolset. And ACR freaks out with 32bit files if you use 2012 process (it's possible to get unchanged flat look using the 2010 but it's 100perc. guarantee either).

God... So glad to read your answers as I thought I was the only getting crazy with all this stuff!

So at the end how do you deal with Lightroom and 32bit at the end?
Are you using VFB+ and then output from Corona in 32bit or 16bit? Sorry for asking but lately I have a lot of doubts on which workflow to choose due to the limitations we both wrote above.

2016-09-19, 17:13:17
Reply #447

Juraj

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I haven't been using 32bit output for a while. In past months I used pre-dominantly VFB+ filmic ( with single midtones boosting, slightly contrast adding LUT, but with no color bending ), then send it to PS as 16bit tiff and continue from there as I would develop my raw photography.

My head hurts from this every second month though :- )

I would like to see how the Fstorm curve looks like, I think Vlado was trying to make a LUT of it last time I checked chaosgroup forum. I would probably be most satisfied with full filmic curve, but I guess it would be confusing for 90perc. of users, who knows, maybe even for me. But full filmic lets you specify when the shoulder happens, how fast it rolls, how boosted the linear section should be. I want to tweak it to resemble the one NIKON cameras have.

I would like to eventually do some post-production in framebuffer maybe, but those tools would have to work in sRGB/2.2 space, and that would probably collide with the option to export linear files. For now my ideal dream is tonemapping resembling the camera response curves modern DSLRs have ( because current CMOS chips are linear a tonal curve is applied ), with some contrast LUT only for preview reasons ( like viewfinder showing your the jpeg processing to give you estimate of "nice look" ) and then do everything in ACR.
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2016-09-19, 17:22:21
Reply #448

-Ben-Battler-

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Since playing with the 1.5 DB I often use both HC and Filmic at the same time. I sometimes feel like Filmic doesn't compress the highlights as efficiently as HC but using both together I feel like I get the good stuff of both worlds.

Maybe this is from a technical side fubar, I wouldn't know ;)
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2016-09-19, 17:26:03
Reply #449

Dionysios.TS

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I haven't been using 32bit output for a while. In past months I used pre-dominantly VFB+ filmic ( with single midtones boosting, slightly contrast adding LUT, but with no color bending ), then send it to PS as 16bit tiff and continue from there as I would develop my raw photography.

My head hurts from this every second month though :- )

I would like to see how the Fstorm curve looks like, I think Vlado was trying to make a LUT of it last time I checked chaosgroup forum. I would probably be most satisfied with full filmic curve, but I guess it would be confusing for 90perc. of users, who knows, maybe even for me. But full filmic lets you specify when the shoulder happens, how fast it rolls, how boosted the linear section should be. I want to tweak it to resemble the one NIKON cameras have.

I would like to eventually do some post-production in framebuffer maybe, but those tools would have to work in sRGB/2.2 space, and that would probably collide with the option to export linear files. For now my ideal dream is tonemapping resembling the camera response curves modern DSLRs have ( because current CMOS chips are linear a tonal curve is applied ), with some contrast LUT only for preview reasons ( like viewfinder showing your the jpeg processing to give you estimate of "nice look" ) and then do everything in ACR.

Thanks for getting back and I agree 100% on all this.

I feel sorry we still don't have a good and professional solution to this. I guess the two month's headache will stay for a while in our heads...