Chaos Corona Forum
General Category => General CG Discussion => Hardware => Topic started by: David Males on 2015-10-01, 16:23:19
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Hey guys,
As I am new to this forum and also to PC hardware I would like to ask for advice with "low" budget Workstation.
I am freshly graduated architect, and because I found most joy in visualization part of the industry, I would like to focus on that for now.
I use mostly Revit, 3dsmax and Corona(have to learn vray though for the basics), and also Adobe package.
The problem is, that my laptop is crazy slow even for "learning" part, so I am looking for and advice on workstation for about 1000-2000 E(of course the cheaper the better).
I think you guys here have pretty good opinions on hardware and also are pros from the industry (juraj - btw I love your work:D).
From the threads I have already searched through, quadro and xeon decisions might be too expensive for my budget and intention.
Also, I have no experience on overclocking whatsoever, but I am free to hear any advice on that.
Anyway, I will be thankful on any comment.
Thank you for your time,
Kind regards,
David
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Ok, so I spent some time and tried to make some setup. So far I've configured this (I think it is a bit too expensive and powerful maybe ... but well at least it will last longer)
Power-source: EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2 - 120E
Motherboard: MSI X99S XPOWER AC - 310E
Processor: Intel Core i7-5930K - 640E
Processor Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 120V ver.2 - 55 E
Graphic Card : EVGA GeForce GTX980 Ti Superclocked - 710E
RAM: Kingston 32GB KIT DDR3 2400MHz CL11 HyperX Savage Series - 230E
Harddrive for OS: SSD disk Kingston SSDNow V300 120GB 7mm : 51,90E
Harddrive Storage: WD Red 2000GB 64MB cache - 100E
With Box and Wifi card it's rounded at 2300E ..
It is a bit over what I expected, maybe too powerful for me now.. What do you guys think?
Thanks
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Hi. Sorry for the late reply, I'll just point out the parts I'd change and reasoning behind it.
Motherboard: MSI X99S XPOWER AC - 310E - Just get a cheaper board like MSI X99 SLI Plus, or Asus X99-A. They get the job done, and since you're not overclocking much(if at all) will be mostly the same.
Processor: Intel Core i7-5930K - 640E - the i7-5820k is basically the same for rendering. It just has less PCIex lanes, and slightly lower base clock. With a small overclock (which most boards can do automatically) they even out, but 5820k costs a lot less.
Processor Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 120V ver.2 - 55 E - Better get a good air cooler like Noctua nh-d14(d15) or spend more on a better AiO unit. Just triple check for sizing, as it can be a problem to fit some of them.
Graphic Card : EVGA GeForce GTX980 Ti Superclocked - 710E - Good, but if you want to save on something a 970 is enough for work.(actually even lower/older cards are ok, like 760)
RAM: Kingston 32GB KIT DDR3 2400MHz CL11 HyperX Savage Series - 230E - Ram speed doesn't really affect render times. Just be sure they come in 8Gb per stick, so you can later upgrade to 64Gb if necessary.
Harddrive for OS: SSD disk Kingston SSDNow V300 120GB 7mm : 51,90E - V300 is bad. Get something from Intel, Samsung, Crucial. I'd also suggest 240Gb and up if possible.
And don't worry about Xeons and Quadros. While some Xeons make sense in dual cpu configurations, the Quadros are just over hyped and worse than most gaming GPUs(at least in 3dsmax).
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Too much power? Never....
Simple, Just get an i7-5960X OC'd to 4.5. Base your system to support that, done.
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Harddrive for OS: SSD disk Kingston SSDNow V300 120GB 7mm : 51,90E - V300 is bad. Get something from Intel, Samsung, Crucial. I'd also suggest 240Gb and up if possible.
I was about to purchase V300 240GB, but after some google searching, it looks that there's big lottery with that disk.
Now i'm looking at Sandisk plus 240GB. How about it? Mind you i'm on very tight budget and this is my first ssd ever.
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The Sandisk is fine, looks quite reliable and of course...the price is hard to beat.
Still, I would add those 10 dollars/euros and get Samsung 850Evo, if at least for the writing speeds with out constant auto-save in 3dsMax.
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In my country it's 20 eur. between those two disks, but yeah, writing speed difference is significant. OTOH i don't feel that i have problems with 3ds max's auto save, even with my turtle hdd :]
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You think you don't have problem :- D You will talk differently after you install SSD :- )
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I'm all for Samsung same as Juraj. Have been using them since the 830 series.
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Just get a computer that runs the latest games... then you are good to go for 3D/rendering.
Look here for inspiration.
https://www.mm-vision.dk/computer/vision-plus-computere
I have bought my last 4 computers from them, they are the same as would build myself (more or less).
I am sure you can find something similar where you live
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Hey guys,
thank you very much for your replies, very much appreciated. I took some notes:) And also Stephen, thanks for that website, I am currently in Denmark so I will think about it. The prices seem decent, considering double priced on similar "build your PC" websites. But I think I wanted to have that feeling when you build your PC and it runs smoothly and you are proud of it :D
I would like to ask one more thing, about the wifi adapters. Is it better to buy more expensive motherboard with wifi slot and PCI adapter, or simple use Usb one?
I have not much experience on this, as I have only had laptops for now. Is there a big difference in signal power ?
Thank guys:)
Kind regards,
David
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Graphic Card : EVGA GeForce GTX980 Ti Superclocked - 710E - Good, but if you want to save on something a 970 is enough for work.
Processor Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 120V ver.2 - 55 E - Better get a good air cooler like Noctua nh-d14(d15) or spend more on a better AiO unit. Just triple check for sizing, as it can be a problem to fit some of them.
Ok, I might go for 970 then, With EVGA which one should I pick, SC, SSC or FTW? I have read some forums and I can't decide because I don't really understand, just that FTW has some kind of a backplate for better heat distribution, the price is more or less the same SC -380E, SSC - 400E, FTW+ 430E
And about Noctua cooling, on the site I am checking the socket 2011-3 is not listed, or is it the same with 2011?
Also, they offer Cooler Master Hyper 103 with the most of the motherboards, is it crap or it should do fine ? And maybe I can upgrade it to Noctua one later
Ok so so far I am here:
(http://s12.postimg.org/ul62q2vfh/config.jpg)
What do you think about it ? Anyway, now I might have some space for upgrading processor to 5960X , + 600 Euro approx. , or do you think I should stick with this one for now and maybe
upgrade it later on?:)
As you can see I also went for only 16gb of RAM for now(with higher frequency and lower CL) and I will upgrade it when needed. The price is now €1 550, I might be able to decrease it to €1300 without tax on my brother's company.
Thanks for your comment anyway:)
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Hi,
Is there any particular reason for choosing the Western Digital Purple? This line (purple) is designed for surveillance purposes (fast writing of data and slow reading speed).
I would suggest WD Black (5 year warranty) if it suits your budget or Blue if you want to save for now. The Red ones are suited for NAS and the Green ones are best suited for backups.
Cheers
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I just placed it there so I can see the final price, haven't done much research on HDD:) But thanks for the info, I had no idea haha
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It's so quite unbalanced at the moment imho.
Why did you choose the gimmicky motherboard ? And the cheapest computer case ?
And why the "industrial" range of Noctua for PC fans ? Do you know how loud they are ? The 3000RPM should be a hint... Get the regular ones. These ones aren't meant for workstation at all.
You need more of "ANY" memory, because 3D doesn't care... at all. So ignore latency numbers and frequency. Look at price.
This need some serious and complete overhaul, but I don't have time today.
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Thank you for reply Juraj,
I would be really happy for more advice, especially from you.
Anyway, to be honest, I still have 1 or 2 months of saving money, but I wanted to have some idea about how much I have to save up.
So that's the reason I just researched the key components, not fans etc. So I am listening.
I basically added that up there to see that I need additional 20-30 euros for fan etc, the same goes for a case, is it worth spending more money on that?)
About the Ram, so it is better to use more GB of cheaper ones?
I have a lot of time figuring the setup up, so feel free to add some comments when you have enough time:)
Also, is there anything new that is going to be released in following months that would be worth waiting for?
Thanks:)
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Anyway, to be honest, I still have 1 or 2 months of saving money
Ah good, if you have time then wait and research :- ).
the same goes for a case, is it worth spending more money on that?
Absolutely. A good case contributes to better cooling, easier installation, modularity of future upgrades, and last but to me most important, to silent operation.
All-time favourites like Fractal Define R5 even include 3 high-end fans in the package so you don't need to order additional ones (and you don't with single GPU).
About the Ram, so it is better to use more GB of cheaper ones?
Today, yes, in almost every situation. For certain applications, highest overall speed affects minimally the overall performance, but in 3dsMax, rendering, Adobe Suite,etc.. it doesn't do anything at all.
So simply going for reliable brand and best value/performance model is the go-to solution. Last year that was Crucial model, but I honestly don't know what the current popular favourite is.
As for more, if this is "budget workstation", then you can certainly live with 16gb just 'fine' (sort of..) but I wouldn't be able to work with it. I work with 64 and regularly fill it up on everyday basis, but 32gb is just right for average freelancer right now imho.
Also, is there anything new that is going to be released in following months that would be worth waiting for?
Sadly not at all. Skylake-E or whatever high-end platform will come soonest is year away, and I doubt it will be any more impressive then current Haswell-E. Same go for GPUs I think...
But no matter that, the evolution right now is slow, you never regret even if the next best thing comes 2 days after your purchase. Golden rule to live by is to buy what you need, right when you need it.
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Thank you for your feedback again, I would love to hear your advice on fans/case options on "tight" budget:)
And about this "gimmicky" motherboard, I found out that Krate edition means that it is black and white, and I think that's it. It was at discount atm, and there was cooler (probably useless) added, so that's why I picked that one. Should I stick with normal ones?
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It does look nice, I know :- ) The bundled cooler (103) could actually almost suffice you if you were not to overclock your CPU, but considering how easy that today is (one-click), you need better one. And that's the suggested Noctua tower. Pricey, but so well-worth it given its performance and silent acoustics, few contenders are worth considering only.
If you were budget price, then you can safely skip to basic A99 (SLI Plus) model from MSI and save another 30 or bucks, since you need neither that cooler from bundle, neither slightly altered featureset towards gaming.
Asus X99-A would be slightly more reliable board with better UEFI, but I don't have problem with the basic MSI. At least you will save some budget for the tower cooler and better case.
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Ok, I will do so:)
One more question, from your point of view, it is better to buy more expensive processor and worse GPU or worse processor and better GPU ?
Let's say or 5960X + GTX760(maybe something better) or 5820 + GTX 970(980TI maybe) ? If the purpose was sole modeling and rendering?
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If the sole purpose was modelling and rendering in 3dsMax, then CPU would take all the precedence simply because how poorly 3dsMax viewport utilizes GPU acceleration. It's much better than before, the Nitrous viewport is all nice and smooth...relatively, but it comparatively sucks against pretty much any modern game engine on the market. It doesn't even care if your GPU is 750Ti or Titan-X. It won't tripple your FPS like games would...it would merely notice it by 20perc speedup... but it does care about the on-board memory because the scene still has to fit in in order to work smoothly, so 4GB memory is good choice no matter what price-level of GPU you will get.
Of course, 5960X and 750Ti would appear sort of strange...
Regarding high-end GPUs, they have their place elsewhere than accelerating DCC apps and Adobe Suite. It's gaming, working in game engines (like Unreal4), using GPU raytracers (like Octane, Redshift,etc..). That and that only.
Imho more universal, budget friendly workstation like 5820k+ GTX 970 is mora rational solution even if 5960X would be power-horse for rendering. Don't spend that kind of money on PC if you need to compromise.
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As mentioned, get a good case - I'm all for Fractal Define R5 (have built in R4, XL R2 and they are great).
WD Purple is a no go for the reasons fkoehler said.
600w PSU might be a bit too low.
3dsmax viewport benefits from higher base clockspeed. At least that's how it is with the 700 series and older.
But within those 970 models any would be good, so pick that last depending on budget.
And don't buy lower 900 series. The 960 for example does terribly, much worse than 970, or older generation cards.
I'd even go as far as suggest getting the 5960x cpu, and just finding a used 660Ti, 670, 760 (100-150 euros). Viewport speeds will be similar as with 970, but the 8 core with proper cooling and OC will render significantly faster.
In the end, it all depends on local prices, budget and availability.
If your planning to buy from a specific local e-store, just link it. Makes it much easier to suggest parts that way ;)
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https://www.alza.sk/EN/components/18852654.htm Here you go, I'm 80% sure I will use this e-store:) That's the one I already used screen from. If you have some spare time and find joy in this, feel free to suggest anything:) Thank you
One question, what do you guys think of water cooling of processor? Is it just overrated because it's new and cool? Or does it have advantage over air-based ones? For example the NZXT Kraken X61 ? Or this one : https://www.alza.sk/corsair-cooling-hydro-series-h105-d1638095.htm?catid=18849473 ?
Ok so now im here(pretty satisfied) :
Power-source :Fractal Design Integra M 650W - 85E
Motherboard: ASUS x99-A - 272E
Processor : Intel Core i7-5820K - 422E
GPU : EVGA GeForce GTX970 FTW ACX 2.0 - 403E
RAM: Kingston 32GB KIT DDR4 2666MHz CL15 HyperX Fury Black Series (4x8GB) - 223E
SSD disk: Samsung 850 EVO 250GB - 110E
HDD: WD Black 2000GB 64MB cache - 140E
Cooler: NOCTUA NH-D15 - 92E
Case : Fractal Design Define S - 86E
Altogether : 1840E
What do you guys think?
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Ok so now im here(pretty satisfied) :
Power-source :Fractal Design Integra M 650W - 85E
Motherboard: ASUS x99-A - 272E
Processor : Intel Core i7-5820K - 422E
GPU : EVGA GeForce GTX970 FTW ACX 2.0 - 403E
RAM: Kingston 32GB KIT DDR4 2666MHz CL15 HyperX Fury Black Series (4x8GB) - 223E
SSD disk: Samsung 850 EVO 250GB - 110E
HDD: WD Black 2000GB 64MB cache - 140E
Cooler: NOCTUA NH-D15 - 92E
Case : Fractal Design Define S - 86E
Altogether : 1840E
What do you guys think?
Looks solid!
Only thing I'd change is PSU, something around 750w or more. But that's just me :)
All in one solutions like the Kraken X61 and H105 are good, and outperform air coolers when under higher overclocks. But overall the difference isn't that great and they are often louder, while costing much more.
So, if you don't plan to OC like crazy, the Noctua is a great cooler. And if you do decide to switch later, it won't be a problem to sell it off ;)
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So, after reading this thread and checking his first spec for 2.3k euros and the last one for 1.8k, it looks to me that he will get noticeable performance loss in comparison for how much money he will save. I mean is 5820k vs 5930k and especially GTX970 vs GTX980TI worth it over saving merely 500 euros?
Nothing personal, but I would go with the first one :) with some small tweaks here and there (like SSD/case).
He could've changed the SSD, maybe the case also, replaced 5930k with 5820k, kept the 980Ti just in case for future and the price would still be around 2000e :)
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I also like it :- )
Hah, I didn't know Fractal brought S-version, one without optical bay slot. That's pretty damn cool of them. And now with proper support for water cooling.
I generally dislike CL water cooling, and specially the popular models like Corsair h1xx/,etc.. for being pretty loud while being only negligibly more effective at top performance compared to best air towers.
But I do personally like, and would try the Fractal one (S36), but I don't think that's available easy (looks like Alza has it for 170, ouch, and non-available, but they have S24 for 145 euro). That's the only close looper (and it's actually modular..hah) I like.
But I have by now 8 Noctua towers at home (from NH-D14 to D15, AH-14,etc..) and they're going super well, the oldest is 4 years now and still runs flawlessly and I never clean them even...
Given you buy from Alza.sk I am going to ask where you reside :- )?
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it looks to me that he will get noticeable performance loss
No ;- ) Not even a little bit at all.
5930k with 5820k
The only difference between these two is effectively PCI-Lane (28 vs 40), and that...doesn't do shit, even if you run 4 GPUs, for which its meant. Even than, those PCI lanes perfectly suffice in practive.
5930k is ugly, unnecessary child. They overclock identically.
kept the 980Ti
So he could play Witcher 3 in best details :- ) ? I agree to that in such case, but if this is workstation, and budget is important, than this would be stupid choice. If he wants to focus on rendering and modelling with this PC for now, and doesn't want to spend 3K euro,
he definitely doesn't need it at all. There will be no performance difference in the task.
Much better upgrade would be first 512GB SSD (for the amount of software now, try installing whole AdobeSuite, Unreal4, etc.. and you will see 256 is nothing), another 2-3TB of HDD and then....just then....he could upgrade CPU and GPU.
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I agree on the 5930k vs 5820k part absolutely. This is the point where he can save quite some money - also on the motherboard part.
But I would still keep 980Ti and come out with similar price to his final one, just to have it in case I decide to switch render engine or something (and to game of course ;D).
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But I would still keep 980Ti and come out with similar price to his final one, just to have it in in case I decide to switch render engine or something (and to game of course ;D).
4GB version of 970 is more than sufficient for high-end gaming and also real-time engines and raytracers. But yes, having the higher model would make it more universal but then again, you have to build with purpose and budget.
You definitely wouldn't come to similar price, 980Ti is 350-400 euro more expensive so he would have to sacrifice much more important components.
You don't need the best just for sake of future-proof. It's not any more future-proof anyway with next generation always around corner.
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You definitely wouldn't come to similar price, 980Ti is 350-400 euro more expensive so he would have to sacrifice much more important components.
I meant that if he replaced 5930K for 5820K and got a bit cheaper motherboard for his first build (2300e) he would save enough to cover the price difference from 970 to 980Ti :) ...but then again he would need to go with a cheaper case, cheaper SSD and cheaper cooler compared to the last build (1840e).
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but then again he would need to go with a cheaper case, cheaper SSD and cheaper cooler compared to the last build (1840e).
Which, in total picture, are much more important components for workstation then raw benchmark power of slightly higher performance part.
When I was 12 years old, this is how me and all my friends tried to build their gaming rigs, get the best GPU and the rest can be made from paper. I mean who cares if the cheap PSU will explode 2 months later :- )
It's just not rational approach, no matter how 'street-smart'/'best bang for bucks' it appears on paper. It's like buying fiat punto and putting V8 motor inside.
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Given you buy from Alza.sk I am going to ask where you reside :- )?
Hah I knew you would notice. I'm from Trencin, but I did my bachelor in Denmark and currently still live here. But I think I plan to move back to Slovakia in few years.
Actually I had a conversation with you on facebook once, about internship at BEEF, and that's what actually got me even more interested in CG world, especially Archviz. I just finished bachelor few months back, and I am probably too lazy to do master's, so archviz seem like a good choice, vs. architecture where I would have to study another 2 years and then get a lots of years of experience to finally be able to do my own work. I am pretty much enjoying both the same, so for now I want to focus on archviz and try to find some first clients and improve step by step (until I'm at your level haha). Well and maybe I could do architecture and interior design as a hobby or so. I'm just 23 so there is a lot of time to figure out:)
Anyways, Thanks guys for your comments here, now I have much more knowledge of putting pc together so it's balanced. Anyway, I think the prices might change within next 2 months, so hopefully I would be able to save some more. This year Christmas will be epic :D
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Ah..I don't remember. So did you took the internship ?
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Yup, but just for 5 months or so as it was mandatory part of my education and then I had to go back to DK. But still I was really happy to spend some time home and also their team is chilled and friendly hah :) But to be honest, I was quite horrified how low the actual salary is for the starting architects there, I mean Slovakia as a whole :D Considering how much workload and working hours are there.. Anyway, I was doing some visualizations for them and it got me that feeling that this could be the way for me, so here I am)
One question I wanted to ask you for a long time now, do you also take interns to your studio? Or "part-time" workers? I actually was considering asking you back then, but as it was outside of range of my education, I probably couldn't go anyway. And now I am not a student any longer so.. :D
(anyway, I think this goes quite out of the subject here:D)
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Sorry for the off-topic then. Can I add you on FB ? We can continue there
https://www.facebook.com/juraj.talcik
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Hey guys, It's been quite a while since this topic, and I wanted to thank you all once again for your advices.
I was thinking a little update would be appropriate :)
So after all I spent approx. 2500 euros:
MB: asus x99-pro
PS: Evga 750W
Box: Fractal Design Define S
CPU: 5960x
GPU: Asus gtx 970 OC
Ram: 32GB Kingston 2666mhz 4x8
CPU cooler : Noctua d-15
SSD: 500GB Samsung EVO
HDD : WD Black 1TB for now
and additional 2 noctua 140mm Pwn coolers for the case
So far I am very satisfied, haven't had that much time play with it that much during Christmas break though,
Now I am doing some overclocking via UEFI, currently I am testing 4.5ghz on 1.2v with XMP activated for RAM,
Can you advice me what is the best stability test? and how long should I run it? Currently I am using Aida64 and after one hour it seems pretty stable, I think I have to try at least 8 hours..
CPU Temperatures keep under 80, with average 60-70, motherboard is stable at 30..
When I try 3ds max rendering the temperatures usually stay under 65, which I hope is ok :)
That's it, anyway Happy new year to everyone and good luck with your renders:)
Kind regard,
David
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Hey guys, It's been quite a while since this topic, and I wanted to thank you all once again for your advices.
I was thinking a little update would be appropriate :)
So after all I spent approx. 2500 euros:
MB: asus x99-pro
PS: Evga 750W
Box: Fractal Design Define S
CPU: 5960x
Ram: 32GB Kingston 2666mhz 4x8
CPU cooler : Noctua d-15
SSD: 500GB Samsung EVO
HDD : WD Black 1TB for now
and additional 2 noctua 140mm Pwn coolers for the case
So far I am very satisfied, haven't had that much time play with it that much during Christmas break though,
Now I am doing some overclocking via UEFI, currently I am testing 4.5ghz on 1.2v with XMP activated for RAM,
Can you advice me what is the best stability test? and how long should I run it? Currently I am using Aida64 and after one hour it seems pretty stable, I think I have to try at least 8 hours..
CPU Temperatures keep under 80, with average 60-70, motherboard is stable at 30..
When I try 3ds max rendering the temperatures usually stay under 65, which I hope is ok :)
That's it, anyway Happy new year to everyone and good luck with your renders:)
Kind regard,
David
Nice system, and thanks for the update! ;)
As for stress testing, I'm always using LinX. It usually gets the temps higher than any rendering, but if the system is stable under that, it works fine rendering even during hot summer days :)