A new PC for Corona

[Lnt]

Hi,

Since recently i start working exclusively with Corona, ive decided to buy a second PC just for renders.
Unfortunately this is a low budget PC, so i seek for advice in order to get something as good as possible since i am totally clueless about PCs.

The budget is 1300 eu ( ~ 1400+ usd ), the market is eastern Europe.
Unfortunately i don't plan to upgrade it any time soon so this is all i got for now.

Thanks

[juang3d]

IMHO with this budget you can get a pretty good 5820k with 32Gb of RAM, a ver good render node for a low budget, I don't have time to give you a full config, but basically an Asus motherboard, a closed liquid cooling system and a low cost GPU :)

I'm sure others here can be more precise :)

Cheers!

[Juraj]

a second PC just for renders

So only a 'node' ? The first computer will still be your workstation ?

[Lnt]

IMHO with this budget you can get a pretty good 5820k with 32Gb of RAM, a ver good render node for a low budget, I don't have time to give you a full config, but basically an Asus motherboard, a closed liquid cooling system and a low cost GPU :)

I'm sure others here can be more precise :)

Cheers!

Thank you, thats a good direction to start looking

a second PC just for renders

So only a 'node' ? The first computer will still be your workstation ?

Someone else will use my old PC probably, so i will need a PC where i can do the modeling+ texturing.

[Txamo]

I do not recommend ASUS motherboards, warranty work fatal if you have a fault or problem, at least in its division workstation and server motherboard. I myself have had an ASUS Z10PE-D8WS, problems with SATA controller (Windows 7 and Windows 10) did not know how to solve the problem and merely not give me solutions and tell me that they would try to seek a solution by driver, every message exchanged took 3 days, the company located in the Czech republic for all Europe (for the workstation server division), only give service in English (if you speak fluidly perfect), if you want to do it by phone you have to call up there and a lot of problems more, I pass supermicro and no comparison. I'm not a supporter of liquid cooling pre assembled, I work with NOCTUA and temperatures are virtually the same and do not have the problems it can create one liquid.

Sorry for my bad English.

[Juraj]

Juang correctly suggested i7 5820k as the ultimate choice for this kind of budget. Because 1300 euro is good budget, don't think of it as low :- ) If you're not building true universal solution which is equally oriented on gaming/real-time stuff and which would warrant higher-end GPU, you can comfortably fit more expensive LGA-2011v3 platform with the best value oriented 6-core available. I would go for high-quality parts which will serve for years, and if you ever want to dive into more GPU oriented stuff, you will just buy it in next generations as upgrade option.

Example workstation based on LGA-2011v3 platform that doesn't include regular storage:

i7 5820k   +/- 400 euro

Any "entry-level" 2011v3 board. Asus is the higher-end choice here, and most popular brand, but if you go with their lower-range Asrock, or alternatively MSI/Gigabyte, all the same good. Asus has the most user-friendly UEFI if that is of any interest.
Asus X99-A, MSI X99, Gigabyte X99 - 200-250 Euro

32GB memory. Go for best-value oriented modules with low-profile modules with no gimmick type of heatsinks. They don't matter.
Crucial, Kingston, Corsair  DDR4 2400Mhz (if you find good deal with higher clock, good, if not, don't sweat it, go for price)    150-170 euro

Main drive SSD 250GB, go value-oriented, performance difference is negligible.
Samsung 850 EVO  250 GB  +/- 90 euro

CPU cooler: Either high-end Air tower, or CLC system of your favourite brand (Corsair, NXT, etc...). Depends on what you like. I consider high-end air cooling to be personally better choice unless you go for better 2x240/3x360mm CLC systems that already spiral costs into 150 +/- euro territory. We need more budget oriented stuff, but one which lets you overclock maximally and keep it stable&quit.
Noctua-NHD15  +/- 90 euro

Tower: Personal choice. Fractal is great value oriented evergreen with perfect minimalist look, some good silencing and comes with great stock coolers.
Fractal Design DefineS (cheaper brother of R5)-  +/- 85 euro

Reputable brand based (Seasonic, Superflower, Corsair, BeQuiet, Enermax,etc..) 80+ standard, at least bronze level PSU. Overclocked i7 six-core will reach up to 300W, similarly can high-end GPU. So look for 650W/760W for some future proofing if you plan to upgrade GPU in future, or want you PSU to ran in semi-passive mode.
Seasonic G Series 650 W  +/- 120 euro
(personally, I do always suggest going higher, with silver/gold based PSU, because 24/7 rendering for years on overclocked machines will put higher stress than regular use and gaming, and you will sleep comfortably you have higher-grade hardware (capacitators,etc..), but if budget is concerned, reputable brand + bronze 80+ is OK)

Low-end GPU, because 3dsMax doesn't utilize it any good anyway for viepowert performance (with Nitrous, it's great on low-end card as well) and Corona is pure CPU based and will be in near future.
GTX 750ti  +/- 100 euro.

<1300 euros including VAT



Alternatively, you can build more universal machine with better GPU if you switch to LGA-1151 platform, which would yield you only quad-core (but highly over-clockable) and let you buy 960/970 GTX GPU instead.

i7 6700k  +/- 350 Euro
Asus/MSI/Gigabyte Z170 motherboard +/ 120-150 euro

You save about 100-150 euros here which you can spend on higher-end GPU.


Alternatively x2 - You can try scavening for used hardware, either full workstation, or parts. Esp. GPUs loose their value quickly today (CPUs don't ).



//Why 32GB memory over better GPU. Because 32GB is easily used in current rendering today, while better GPU (970 vs 750Ti) provides only minimal benefit for viewport performance in newest 3dsMax releases.

[Lnt]

Wow Juraj this is awesome, thanks a lot

I will go with your suggestions and hopefully i can buy everything next week.

This is what i chose so far:

Cooler:
http://noctua.at/en/nh-d14
Not sure if this is the best chose, there are a lot of coolers around the same price, and i am not sure what to look for.

Processor:
http://ark.intel.com/products/82932/Intel-Core-i7-5820K-Processor-15M-Cache-up-to-3_60-GHz
Was wondering if other more expensive processor will have a noticeable difference in render time ( 80-100 more $ then this one maybe )

MB:
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5123#sp

Memory:
http://www.kitguru.net/components/memory/luke-hill/crucial-ballistix-sport-2400mhz-32gb-ddr4-memory-kit-review/
This are the cheapest 32gb one i found

SSD:
SSD Kingston HyperX FURY 240GB ~ 80E

GPU:
GeForce GTX 750 Ti OC 2GB DDR5 ~ 130E


I still need a case, should i go with anything that can keep all this components or there are some better?
Also, you think that more fans are needed or just that cooler.

Thanks again for your help.

[Juraj]

ND14 is older version of ND15, it needs a new tray to work with latest CPUs, but I think they supply it for free just make sure your vendor has it, otherwise Noctua would have to ship it :- )
Otherwise it's almost identical just cheaper a bit.

5820k is the best deal, because 5930k has the same over-clockable performance. I.e, you will run both in 4.0+ Ghz, but you will save money with 5820k. 5930K has also 40 PCI lanes compared to 28 in 5820k, this can be difference if you run 4 high-end GPUS :- )

You don't need more fans if you buy Case that already has 2 or 3 which you need for proper push-pull setup (horizontal for silence or vertical for maximum exhaustion).
Fractal does cost 80 euro, but already comes with 3 very high-end fans (each costing 10 euro separately). This is important to calculate when you choose your case, it's not just the price of it.

Good cases like the Fractal, are modular, they let you keep inside only cages (for HDDs,etc..) you need, which gives you better air-flow and better temperatures for your overclocking. If you go for cheaper, make sure you read some reviews on them on internet.

Crucial Ballistic is excellent choice. I use it in my most high-end Xeon build for years :- )

[Lnt]

Thanks again,

I will go for http://noctua.at/en/nh-d15 then.
And with a Fractal Design case.


Following your recommendations, im around 1200 EU without the monitor.
Any keyboard/mouse you like under the 100 EU mark?

At this rate, ill promise that once i install my OS, i will name my PC "Juraj" xD

[Juraj]

Any keyboard/mouse you like under the 100 EU mark?

Not really, the options are too diverse and I am quite conservative. I personally use Logitech MX, because I don't need many buttons and I like strong ergonomic shape (but it's still not good enough because I am strongly running towards Carpal tunnel :- (. The recent version of this mouse, MX Master costs almost 100 euros though...

Lot of people prefer various version of gaming mouses, which have tons of buttons. I have zero experience here, seems to be very personal choice.

For keyboards, I personally use basic MicrosoftSculpt and other we have include basic flat Microsoft/Logitech keyboards. I like at least partial silence in office so none of those hardcore mechanical keyboards that surfaced recently in gaming communities :- ).

At this rate, ill promise that once i install my OS, i will name my PC "Juraj" xD

Our PCs are named in that fashion :- )   Juraj1, Juraj2, Veronika1,etc..

[Ondra]

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-73P2620-Enhanced-Performance-Keyboard/dp/B0002376KW

everyone in our office loves them ;)

[sebastian___]

5820k is the best deal, because 5930k has the same over-clockable performance. I.e, you will run both in 4.0+ Ghz, but you will save money with 5820k. 5930K has also 40 PCI lanes compared to 28 in 5820k, this can be difference if you run 4 high-end GPUS :- )

Does it makes sense to buy a CPU with more lanes not for multi GPU (or maybe just 2 gpu's) but with one or maybe two PCI ssd ? Which I think can use some extra lanes.
Those PCI ssd in addition to one or two regular sata SSD (plus some disk based hdd's)
And what if one of the main program used is not very good in using multi cores.

[Juraj]

It's quite hard to saturate those PCI lanes and they never actually bottleneck your GPU (you can run it on 8x lanes even if it's 16).

PCI-e SSD takes up 4 lanes, so even with 3 of them, you still retain 2x8 SLI option for Dual GPU.

Not sure I understand about the 'using multi-cores'. 5930k does have only nominal benefit in base frequency, but 5820k can clock to same rate manually. There is no actual (single-thread or multi-threaded) performance difference between them once you over-clock.

But still, in the end, it's budget option. People don't try to save 100 +/- euros just so they could later afford 2000 euros worth of SSDs and GPUs down the road :- )

[sebastian___]

Thanks. And I was thinking that probably if someone is using a program which can use only 2 or max 3 cores, it would make sense to buy a type of CPU which doesn't have many cores (like maybe 4 cores) but has a higher frequency. And thus it will work better for programs which are mainly single or 2 cores based.

 But is powerful expensive CPU with less cores - able to match a less expensive CPU but with 6 or more cores in a renderer like Corona ?

[Juraj]

Multi-threaded performance is always Frequency x Core amount (x family generation). So Quad-core at 4 Ghz, would provide same performance as Octa-core at 2 Ghz.

The matter is, the Octa-core can also be clocked to 4 Ghz. So it's same performance in single-thread, but twice in multi-thread. Hence why there is no such thing as expensive quad-core, and cheap octa-core. There is only expensive octa-core, because it can do everything quad-core can and more.

While it's true that some quad-cores can potentially over-clock in home conditions up to 5Ghz, even that won't reach the performance of Hexa-core at 4.5Ghz. Hexa/Octa-core is simply superior in most conditions.

Corona is always using all available threads, and scales perfectly (<100perc.). Archaic 3dsMax is using mostly single-core, but otherwise, you would be hard-pressed to find any modern application that doesn't utilize multi-threaded allocation. Most games still cap at quad-cores but this is workstation thread :- )
And even if your application is limited, it doesn't mean the OS is. Windows will allocate those threads to something else, multi-tasking workflow is quite a norm today.


There is catch to this when it comes to high-end E5 Xeon range. The very top CPUs in this range (2699v3,etc..) already have absurdly low clock (2.3Ghz) but obscene amount of cores (2x14 + HT). This makes them powerhouse for rendering, but poor performer in single-threaded task. Since E5 Xeons cannot be overclocked (technically, they can... 3-5perc. by BLC strap but this is not the real deal), they can only turbo-boost. And they would still turbo only up to 2.6 +/- Ghz. Here, it makes sense to go for higher-clocked with lesser amount of cores like E5 2687WS(Workstation) which would be 3.6Ghz and 8-core, which would at cost of slightly less multi-threaded performance, offer vastly superior single-threaded, making it far more versatile CPU. But they cost identically :- )

[sebastian___]

Very useful information.
So on Amazon uk the i7-5820K is £328 while E5-2687WV2 CPU (3.4GHz, 8 Core, 16 Threads, 25MB Cache) is £1,568.37. Many times more expensive then the 5820K. I wonder if the increase in rendering time is 4 times faster ? Because I'm guessing in single threaded programs that would definitely not be the case.

And another strange thing, this computer on ebay - Dell Precision T5600 Dual (2x) Xeon E5-2687W 64GB 256GB SSD FirePro V7800 , 2x Intel Xeon E5-2687W (3.1/3.8 GHz) Octa-Core CPUs 
is £1,775
Almost the same as just the CPU alone from Amazon. Is this the same CPU ?
 If I get it right, the ebay ad says there 2 cpus inside. The one from Amazon is the same ? 2 CPU ?
 And if I can convince the seller to take out the graphics card, it would be even cheaper.

A possible drawback with the xeons would be - you can't use regular mainboards. As far as I know.
I like for example to buy the latest Asus mainboards with all the bells and whistles. But as I remember the mainboards for Xeons don't have so many features like the regular mainboards. I don't need wifi in a mainboard, but maybe yes to USB 3.1, NVMe U.2 support, M.2 x 4 Support and others. Also easy or automatic overclock interface (for i7) with stress testing and auto setting the ideal overclocking settings - at least that's what they say.

[Shawn Astrom]

For Corona I would buy as many cores as you can afford. Wait another couple weeks for the new 14nn Broadwell-EP.

Here's my build I'm doing next week.
Fractal Design Define XL R2  $139.99
ASUS Z10PE-D16 Motherboard  $551.30
2X XEON 20 core CPUs Broadwell-EP  $2400 EBAY!
2X Noctua NH-U12DX i4  $127.58
Kingston Technology 64GB RAM Kit ECC  $395.19
EVGA 220-PS-1000-V1 80 PLUS Platinum 1000  $209.99
SAMSUNG 950 PRO M.2 512GB  $322.57
2x  SAMSUNG 850 PRO 2.5" 512GB SATA III 3-D  $435.94
EVGA GeForce GTX 980 Ti 6GB SC GAMING  $668.89

These are US pricing but pretty cheap for a 40core computer!

If you don't want to build your own here's a great Builder in the US.
https://www.pugetsystems.com

- Shawn

[Nejc Kilar]

Very useful information.
So on Amazon uk the i7-5820K is £328 while E5-2687WV2 CPU (3.4GHz, 8 Core, 16 Threads, 25MB Cache) is £1,568.37. Many times more expensive then the 5820K. I wonder if the increase in rendering time is 4 times faster ? Because I'm guessing in single threaded programs that would definitely not be the case.

And another strange thing, this computer on ebay - Dell Precision T5600 Dual (2x) Xeon E5-2687W 64GB 256GB SSD FirePro V7800 , 2x Intel Xeon E5-2687W (3.1/3.8 GHz) Octa-Core CPUs 
is £1,775
Almost the same as just the CPU alone from Amazon. Is this the same CPU ?
 If I get it right, the ebay ad says there 2 cpus inside. The one from Amazon is the same ? 2 CPU ?
 And if I can convince the seller to take out the graphics card, it would be even cheaper.

A possible drawback with the xeons would be - you can't use regular mainboards. As far as I know.
I like for example to buy the latest Asus mainboards with all the bells and whistles. But as I remember the mainboards for Xeons don't have so many features like the regular mainboards. I don't need wifi in a mainboard, but maybe yes to USB 3.1, NVMe U.2 support, M.2 x 4 Support and others. Also easy or automatic overclock interface (for i7) with stress testing and auto setting the ideal overclocking settings - at least that's what they say.

Actually, no, those two Xeons are two different CPUs. You can tell that by the base frequency and more importantly by that v1, v2 or v3 marking at the end of its name. What that marking at the end basically means (as far as I know) is the version of the CPU - for example, you'll notice that v1 usually has lower overall performance than a v2 (and probably a few less features, higher power consumption etc...). Higher the version, the newer the CPU.

Pay close attention to when a configuration says it has Dual CPUs (sometimes marked as x2). That means you actually have two physical CPUs in a dual socketed motherboard working together as one. One of the reasons why Xeons are so popular for rendering is the ability to have a workstation with say 16+ cores, a configuration you cannot have with an i7 CPU. Why is that? There isn't a chipset out there to support that kind of a configuration.

Like Juraj said, for a workstation you often see people opt for i7s because for example, the 4790k is one of the fastest performing chips per core out there. That might help you out, depending on your projects, with viewport speed and cloth sim and all the stuff that requires single core performance (there is a number of stuff that benefit from a fast single core cpu). If you take a little speed away and add more core count for rendering, you get into the range of those 5820k and those types of CPUs. Mind you though, for rendering it really is preferred to have more core counts as that will speed everything up quite significantly. Just make sure you don't have 12-cores running at 1ghz because like Juraj said, the math is "Frequency x Core amount (x family generation). So Quad-core at 4 Ghz, would provide same performance as Octa-core at 2 Ghz."

Generally, if you are running an i7 workstation, people supplement those with on-site render nodes so that when they hit render they have more cores running the calculations.

So yeah, if you are judging by single threaded performance then an i7 can be significantly faster than a Xeon. Rendering wise the table turns... One of my colleagues has a single 3ghz Xeon (16 cores I think) and I have a 4ghz 4790k. Yeah, doing some stuff my CPU is noticeably faster but since we mostly render with our machines, his Xeon is like half faster than my CPU. Now, if we weren't in arch viz and we were doing cloth sims all the time... You get the idea :)

Hope that was helpful, Juraj and other people can fill in the blanks here better than me so... Drops the mic!

[Juraj]

I wonder if the increase in rendering time is 4 times faster ?

No, it isn't. But it also doesn't make much sense to compare price of CPUs alone for workstation, but complete budget for workstation. With E5 Xeons, you can stack two of them on motherboard, and only buy 64GB ram, 512GB SSD, GPU, PSU, Case once. That alone is considerable amount of money. i7 would still yield better margin for value per performance, but dual-xeon build will let you use single box with much higher performance output. People buy them for multi-threaded performance primarily, it's niche product for particular use.

There really isn't concept as 'regular' board anymore, just mainstream oriented if you mean that but they don't have any differences that you might think, they're very much the same thing today, because of emergent "pro-consumer" market. For each CPU, you need exact chipset platform. i7 5820 and E5 2687 v3 are both Haswell-E/ LGA 2011 v3.  If you want to use single CPU (i7 5xxx or E3 1xxx v3 / E5 2xxx v3 ) you will use board for only such platform from Asus (any X99 only ). If you want to use 2 CPUs (only E5 2xxx v3), you will use WS version of same chipset, again from Asus (x99 WS dual-socket).

Both boards have nearly identical features and are meant for same user. Dual-socket Xeon oriented X99 ASUS Z10PE-D8 (/16) is warship that blends server oriented capacity with consumer grade features such as SLI, tons of PCI-E, Sound card,gazzilion USB3 ports,etc..

There is still "enthusiast" level in between these two worlds :- ). Currently it's i7 5960X, high-clockable octa-core for 1000 euros. Around the corner is 10 core Skylake-E i7. Much pricier than rest of i7 world, but still cheaper than going full-scale Xeon route. Perfect for somebody who does a mix of GPU and CPU oriented stuff. Lot of test-renderings that you send to farm/cloud, but powerful single-threaded performance coupled with high-end GPU for real-time oriented stuff (Unreal4, VR,etc..). It took Intel a lot of years to put these out, but now they're the perfect middle 'golden' path.

2X XEON 20 core CPUs Broadwell-EP  $2400 EBAY!

Ah...I wish I was more adventurous in past and got myself some ES parts too :- ).

If I didn't use so much Rebus today, I would melt. Have fun ! Make sure to post your Benchmark score and make us all feel terrible.

[Ondra]

Make sure to post your Benchmark score and make us all feel terrible.

We also need to de-throne the current record holder with name "gpu computer" :D

[sebastian___]

Thanks for answers.
So the ebay   2x Intel Xeon E5-2687W (3.1/3.8 GHz) Octa-Core CPUs   is a lower performance CPU compared to the amazon one E5-2687WV2 CPU (3.4GHz, 8 Core, 16 Threads, 25MB Cache)
But the price difference is so high!
I understand the ebay one is a used computer, but in the past I had only good results with ebay shopping. Does anyone know the difference (approx in %) between those two Xeon CPU ?

Because again the amazon one E5-2687WV2 CPU 3.4GHz - £1,568  - single CPU I'm guessing
and ebay one - 2x Intel Xeon E5-2687W (3.1/3.8 GHz) - £1,775  for an entire computer with 64 GB RAM

I'm not gonna buy that particular ebay ad, but I'm asking so I can know for the future.

But probably for my use an I7 would be better. I use my computer for maybe 20% rendering, 40% for single or dual core performance and the rest for other multi-threaded apps like Photoshop, After effects, modeling, scene building, cloth simulation(for plants) and so on, which again, I'm not sure how better are those apps for many cores as well.
 So I'm guessing I need first a very good CPU for single or dual thread performance, and also having as many as possible cores but still with a good value per performance.

[Juraj]

Sometimes you can score a perfect bargain on Ebay. As long as you make sure the seller made correct description.

The difference between CPUs you can find roughly on cpubenchmark.com ,it works well for comparison.

[Lnt]

Hi Juraj, sorry for bringing this up, but im planning in buying all the part this Monday ( most of them are those that you recommended )
However, i got an offer from a friend with this PC:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5846/hp-z420-workstation-review-competition-heats-up
It comes with 32 gb ram

As a newby i cant figure it out which one if better, i did some comparison between parts, but afaik this work stations are optimized better so i dont know if taking them part by part will help.
Do you think that this HP station is worth it over the components you suggested? its around 200euro cheaper

Thanks

[Juraj]

You didn't write what configuration. HP Z420 is just customizeable model. What CPU does your friend have in it ?

These workstations are optimized better

That is a marketing nonsense :- ) They're made from the same parts (but the case and cooling is rather shit). Simply by using Xeon/Quadro doesn't make anything 'professional' or 'optimized'.

Dell/HP/IBM doesn't do anything further to these workstations, outside of offering perfect service when you buy large quantity of them.

so i dont know if taking them part by part will help

That is exactly how you compare any kind of hardware. There is no further magic that can be done by supplier to magically enhance the overall performance (outside of those a user can do, like over-clocking).

HP/IBM/Dell are simply put together with most common reliable parts, often with proprietary OEM that don't exactly rival those available after-market, but can be sourced cheaper. Large Enterprises buy them with wholesale or auctioned pricing (often for 50perc. of list-price), and then get the added benefit of on-site service. They need pre-made standardized solution.
Regular freelancer doesn't get any benefit out of this.