Advice on new workstation build - Ryzen based

[Energyzer]

Hi.

I'm looking to get a new workstation to replace my late 2013 iMac, so this is what i'm thinking about:



I have a few questions about the build:
1- RAM: would it be enough for up to 20M polys scenes? And shall i get 16GBx1 or 8GBx2? Is the speed really relevant for what we do or can i get a lower clock RAM?
2- GPU: is the 1060 enough?

Feel free to give me your opinions!

Thanks,
T.

[Juraj]

Hi,

few quick notes:

-Don't settle for 256 gb system drive. It's barely enough for Windows+ 3dsMax + Photoshop, esp. if both are used at same time, and both create some cache. (Unless you have 128gb of ram and can afford disabling it totally).
 512gb 850 Evo is such a small price increase it's absolutely worth it.

- 16gb memory will not cut it, and 32 is already so/so :- ) Depends on your needs. But consider 32 the bare minimum. Because of future upgradibility, take it in 16gb modules if possible.

- Memory frequency doesn't matter at all. All the "gamers" on internet wasting their money, fretting about getting quad-channel and overclocked 3800Mhz frequency are simply....ignorant.
  Alway get more memory, doesn't matter what kind. Buy the cheapest.

- Avoid Seagate Barracuda ;- ) You can get lucky and will get good one, but if the global rma rates on this drive just over-shadow the others, why risk it ? Just get any WD alternative you fancy.

- GTX 1060 is absolutely capable. In fact, unless you plan gpu-rendering, or playing 4k games, it's total beast :- ) Yes it's middle class, but middle class of 2016/2017.

[Jann]

Mostly agree with Juraj, have just a few observations to add.

Maybe consider getting the 1700 without X. They all seem to be very close when overclocked. You'll probably get to 3.8GHz with normal voltage, and maybe to 3.9-4GHz if lucky.
The 1700 comes with a box cooler, the X cpus don't. You have a very basic cooler listed, so this way you can either put that money to a better one for the 1700, or just get more ram/ssd and switch the cooler later.
Definitely get 16Gb modules, even if it's just one for starters.

[Nejc Kilar]

I agree with Juraj on pretty much everything there. I would however add that maybe you should consider an alternative in cooling if you maybe end up overclocking the thing - not that you can by a whole lot, the early chips seem pretty much pushed to the limit by default so far but still :)

PS: Jann beat me to it, well done Sir!

[Energyzer]

Thanks for your input guys, much appreciated.

Changed the build to fit what Juraj said: 32GB 2400Ghz RAM (16x2) + bigger SSD.

About the CPU, that's something i haven't really tought about, i tend to go for the middle option when i'm not too sure. In this case after some reading it seems 1700 is pretty much the same as the others when overclocked. Check this article:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-amd-ryzen-7-1700-1700x-vs-1800x-review

I'm not an overclocker, haven't done it before. So on 1700, would it be easy to do it without XFR? I guess i could only go as high as TurboCore lets me right (3,7Ghz)?
https://www.techpowerup.com/230609/amd-ryzen-xfr-frequencies-revealed

What do you think about this Juraj? 1700 or 1700x?

Thanks again,
T.

[Ryuu]

Maybe consider getting the 1700 without X. They all seem to be very close when overclocked.

They are almost certainly all the exactly same chip. So unless the lower model has any features or cores disabled, it should be exactly the same as the higher model when overclocked to the same frequency. But anyway overclocking is always a gamble. You may be unlucky and get a sample that doesn't overlock well.

About the CPU, that's something i haven't really tought about, i tend to go for the middle option when i'm not too sure.

Well, for CPU rendering you obviously want the most powerful CPU you can get your hands on :)

You can see our benchmark to compare different Ryzen models, some of them overclocked - https://corona-renderer.com/benchmark/?cpu-type=ryzen&submit=Search

[raulmontiel]

Hi there, as juraj said, i also sugest you to buy the 1700 instead, its very easy to overclock it, just a few clicks and voilá, you get the power of a 1800x.
but theres something i dont agree; i have seen some tests where you get better performance using higher speed ram (3000-3200mhz or even more), theres an exlplanation based on how the zen architecture works (which i dont remeber exactly, so better google it).. and this apply to multithreaded aplications and not only to get higher fps while gaming.

[Juraj]

Honestly, I avoided commenting on the CPU because I just didn't read much about the overclocking potential between 1700/1700X/1800X :- )

Absolutely agree that both 1700/1700X are much better deal, but if there still some better silicon lottery towards 1700X I dunno. Are there already some comprehensive stats ? But yes, if budget is most important, going for pure (non-X)1700 is obvious choice.

but theres something i dont agree; i have seen some tests where you get better performance using higher speed ram (3000-3200mhz or even more), theres an exlplanation based on how the zen architecture works (which i dont remeber exactly, so better google it).. and this apply to multithreaded aplications and not only to get higher fps while gaming.

I know what you mean, the non-monolithic design of cpu blocks (4+4 cores), and memory speed influencing the speed of the 'infinity-fabric' bridge.
I don't think this affects multi-threaded performance, but maybe I should search more benchmarks.

OK :- ) I thus changes the position to "cheapest from mid-to-high clocked memory" if it proves to affect real-performance, and not only 1920x1080 Ashes of Singularity benchmarks :- ).

[Energyzer]

So, changing from 1700x to 1700+better cooler.

I read about that higher speed RAM thing, but it seems to only affect single threaded performance, i.e., gamers mostly. So, is 3000Mhz enough? Guess so, higher than that becomes a bit prohibitive price wise.

[Energyzer]

https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/amd_ryzen_7_1700_cpu_review/1

This made me think about serious OC. If you guys have some wisdom on this matter please share it!
Might need to spend some time researching for what is best in terms of coolers and if i should go for water cooling (not thinking of getting over 4Ghz tho).

[Nejc Kilar]

Keep in mind that overclocking by itself is going to reduce the CPU life span. Sure, a slightly higher voltage shouldn't be a problem but I think AMD themselves said going over 1.35 (or was it 1.4?)V could have a noticeable effect on the life span.

So in that sense, OCing for a 24/7 render machine is different that OCing for a gaming computer.

I really don't want to discourage you but at the same time I'd hate to see you take a CPU and overvolt by a significant margin and then be faced with a dead CPU in a few years. That being said, most Ryzens should hit the ~4ghz mark with relative easy. Could be wrong though :)

[burnin]

here's a short... 3 weeks later

[Fritzlachatte]

I thought the majority would have been reading the following interesting article.

http://www.evermotion.org/articles/show/10618/is-ryzen-good-for-rendering-workstations-

At the bottom of this review, there is a comparison of 2133Mhz vs. 2666Mhz and it makes a suprising difference. btw. he uses corona :-)

 

[Juraj]

People read Evermotion :- O ?

But that is indeed surprising. Would be cool to see this benched with even higher memory clocks to see how that scales (still doubt it would continue linearly).

I think Hrvoje already posted that machine here :- )

[Fritzlachatte]

Ok ok,

...I thought the majority would have been reading the following interesting article.

https://chopmeister.xyz/2017/03/can-ryzen-walk-the-workstation-walk.html/4

better?!

[Juraj]

Much better ! :- )

[Fritzlachatte]

That was a close shave, for a split second I felt like one of those guys, who assert, they are reading the playboy because of the articles.

[chopmeister]

Just to let you know, tests with faster RAM will come as soon as the BIOS gods have mercy on us and give us an update.

Also, some actual production scene speed comparisons with both Vray and Corona will be in that update. ;)

[raulmontiel]

I already got my r7 1700; i did some tests at stock speeds with the corona benchmark and it made it in 2:54mins, while my 5820k overcloked at 4.4ghz made it in 3:15mins ( i dont know if its something wrong with the 5820k because i've seen people doing it in 2:20mins or so)

cinebench r15 scores:

1700 @3.2ghz; ram@2133:  1480cb
5820k @4.4ghz; ram@2666: 1250cb
4770k @4.3ghz; ram@1333: 720cb
e3-1270v5@3.6; ram@2133: 758cb

[Energyzer]

Hello guys,

Just to let you know my rig is up and running. And it's AWESOME!
Currently running it @ 3,8Ghz + 2666 RAM CL16 (can't get tighter timings/higher frequencies for now).

Cinebench 15: 1542 (multithread)
Corona benchmark: 2:39

Build:
Ryzen 1700 @ 3,8Ghz
Asus x370 Prime PRO
G.Skill Trident Z CL15 32GB (16x2) @ 2666 CL16

Note: the stock cooler seems pretty good.

Let me know if you want me to try something specific with it.

Thanks for the pre build advice!

 

[Nejc Kilar]

Thanks really great, especially so if you consider how much you payed for it. Nice one! :)

[springate]

Hi everyone! I've been following this topic for a while now because i'm interested in a similar workstation, but today i went to a local store and i was told about some compatibility issues between ryzen cpu and some chip(?) and the need of a very specific ram frequency. Does anyone know if the information proceeds? There are any precautions i should take on buying the amd cpu?

[lupaz]

Maybe that person meant memory? You need to check that the memory is compatible with the am4 motherboard, which are relatively new.
The cooler also needs to be compatible with am4 .
I can't imagine anything else.

[springate]

Hi, Lupaz, thanks for your time! As soon as got home i started searching about the problem and i found this: https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-memory-compatibility

What is presented in this link is the same issue i heard at the store. That is pretty new information, by the time i found out it has been released only 6 hours earlier

What you guys think?

[Nejc Kilar]

“It’s really only the B350 chipset motherboards that we’re seeing this hit and miss memory support,” said Prior. “This is down to the design of the board and how much time the manufacturer has invested into that board in maintaining support for high memory speeds.

I just quickly glanced over the article and it appears that its mainly the mid tier / lower tier chipsets that are affected. As far as I've heard most RAM woes have been ironed out so you should be fine.

That said, I would still do my research to find a 100% compatible chip (as I did for example for my ECC RAM build) just to be sure. I'd also search for a faster RAM because if I remember correctly there are more speed gains to be gained there compared to other CPUs - still not as drastic though.

[springate]

Hi nkilar, thank you for yout time!
So i'd be fine with a x370 motherboard since its the top tier for am4, right?
Do you guys think 2400mhz ram will be enough or should i go for higher speeds like 3000mhz? Cant find 2666mhz. I remember what Juraj said about frequency doesn't change performance but i'd like to know a bit more about that.

[lupaz]

I bought the asrock taichi x370 and on their list of compatible memory the best they can do is 2400 in 16GB.
In 8GB there are more options, but...Who uses those chips anymore.

[springate]

I'm not sure if i fully understand what you said, lupaz...by 16gb you meant 16gb ram memory chip?

[lupaz]

Yup. You'll need at least 2 memory sticks. Either 2 of 8GB each or 16GB each.

[Fritzlachatte]

@nkilar

That is interesting, I didn´t know that ECC RAM is supported. I thought this might be another benefit of the Thread Ripper / Naples chipset.
Which RAM / manufacturer did you buy?

Thanks

[springate]

I see now! Thank you! Guess that's it i'm gonna go for the x370 asus prime PRO and 32GB @ 2400 Kingston HyperX.

[Nejc Kilar]

@nkilar

That is interesting, I didn´t know that ECC RAM is supported. I thought this might be another benefit of the Thread Ripper / Naples chipset.
Which RAM / manufacturer did you buy?

Thanks

Actually I should have been more clearer. I bought the ECC ram for my Xeon workstation and similarly like with Ryzen its pretty nice to check if that exact RAM module is supported. I mean I presume just about any chip will work (probably even more true for the Ryzen build) but why go through the hassle if you can check what works and not.

Other than that Ryzen by itself does support ECC RAM but a) the motherboard needs to support it (not sure if there are any out there?) b) do you even need it? :)

[springate]

I have another question, folks 😀 is gpu needed for rt render?
I know its not about the main question of this topic but since we're sharing info on workstations i assume i'm not totally wrong asking here...

[maru]

I have another question, folks 😀 is gpu needed for rt render?

Nope, Corona is 100% CPU-based.

[Fritzlachatte]

@nkilar

thanks for your answer. To be honest, I don´t actually know, if those advantages of ECC-Ram are that meaningful for rendering purposes. Sometimes I have in mind, used ECC might sometimes be a good low priced alternative, but I am not so enlightened of the risks using used ECC-Ram.
I can imagine, AMDs Threadripper forces the user into using ECC-Ram but maybe they keep it as an optional choice. Tomorrow we will know more. 

[Nejc Kilar]

You are most welcome! Whats better than another opinion huh?! :)

Jokes aside, afaik there are pretty much zero improvements for rendering with an ECC RAM. They are generally a lot more stable but a little less speedy.

I do value stability and since with the CPU I have I had to go the ECC route I am happy to have it but I would be perfectly fine without. My previous workstation, that my significant other now has, didn't have ECC RAM and I don't ever remember that machine crashing.

Would be fun to hear what other people think, of course :)

[Jann]

Honestly just go with what's cheaper. Me and a friend have similar X99 based Xeon systems. I use ecc, he uses normal ram. Only reason for ecc was the better price at the time. I also used normal ddr3 on my previous dual xeon v1 box.

So just check motherboard compatibility lists, or if the ram you want isn't there, find if someone has it running with that setup. Amount > speed > ecc or not.
And for ddr4, get 16Gb on single stick, even if it means starting with just one.

[Ryuu]

Well the ECC RAM does not affect only the stability of the OS itself. The effect of a memory corruption could be just a single application crashing, data written on HDD/SSD being corrupted or (most probably) just randomly flipping a single bit in an image which is loaded in memory just for the purpose of being displayed (e.g. background image of a web page you are currently viewing).

[Fritzlachatte]

This exactly my problem these days, I would like to avoid with my next system. Yesterday Max started crashing, later on PS and now Firefox etc. bluescreens all over. A few weeks ago I changed some RAM because of these symptoms(but by far less dramatic) and now it is the same again. I don´t know if 4 years is an age for a PC (Intel 4770k with Corsair Vengeance) but I am a little bit disappointed.   
I expected AMD would tell us Threadripper comes in June but they just proclaimed "this sommer", which ends in September, by far too late. I feel uncertain buying a Ryzen now, I think 64GB is the same deadend like my 32GB was, when I bought the crashing PC 4 years ago. (btw. can "overfilling" with large Max-files damage the RAM, because it started after loading high detailed models and adding lot of polygons, then crashing and so the story goes on.)   

[Jann]

You should really stress test any new parts/system.
Same with your current crashing system. Stress test the ram. Every vendor has faulty sticks sometimes.

[Ryuu]

Unless you're in some kind of heavy radiation environment, I doubt that ECC RAM would help in your case. This seems more like a corrupted system or malfunctioning hardware.

[denisgo22]

This exactly my problem these days, I would like to avoid with my next system. Yesterday Max started crashing, later on PS and now Firefox etc. bluescreens all over. A few weeks ago I changed some RAM because of these symptoms(but by far less dramatic) and now it is the same again. I don´t know if 4 years is an age for a PC (Intel 4770k with Corsair Vengeance) but I am a little bit disappointed.   
I expected AMD would tell us Threadripper comes in June but they just proclaimed "this sommer", which ends in September, by far too late. I feel uncertain buying a Ryzen now, I think 64GB is the same deadend like my 32GB was, when I bought the crashing PC 4 years ago. (btw. can "overfilling" with large Max-files damage the RAM, because it started after loading high detailed models and adding lot of polygons, then crashing and so the story goes on.)

Why this is not a graphic card problem?:)

[Fritzlachatte]

I was just wondering why it came suddenly from one second to another while adding "details". Max doesn´t start anymore and firefox crashes the pc while openening. Chrome/Edge work well.And using it for simple things is stable. I would say it is somewhere in RAM + SSD or HDD. :-O
I use a Titan (1) but it never had hard work, because I am never gaming and Max/Corona shouldn´t torture the card that much but you might be right anyway and I have to check it and thanks for your hint.
But the fact that Ryuu mentioned, ECC could not prevent those sneaky errors is astonishing me (in a bad way) because there was a hope of limiting the risk of dataloss/damage in future systems.

 

[Ryuu]

I'm not saying that your problems couldn't be caused by data corruption in RAM, just that you would have to be extremely "lucky" for that having such a catastrophic effect :)

Most of RAM corruption is caused by high energy particles coming from space (unless you have a ball of plutonium sitting on your desk). These particles impact RAM cells and randomly switch value of a single bit. The resulting effects vary greatly depending on what is stored in that memory:

• it could be completely unused
• it could be an image displayed in web brower
• it could be frame buffer of a renderer - the effect can vary from hardly noticable like changing color from (255,255,255) to (255,255,254) to something more severe like changing float color from (1,1,1) to (1, 1, 8.5 * 10e37)
• changing a single bit in executable code will change a single instruction - if you are lucky, this will just cause immediate crash (either of the whole system or just a single application). If you are unlucky this will result in processed data being corrupted
• whenever a file is written to disk modern OS usually buffers the written data in memory first (so that the application can continue immediately assuming the data is written) and then actually writes the data to disk for some longer time period, possibly pausing when there are other disk requests with higher priority - so memory corruption can actually "change data on disk". Again if you are lucky, this just corrupts a single file, if you are unlucky this corrupts the filesystem itself. AFAIK most modern filesystems try to prevent this with various ECC schemes.

If you think that an event such as "cosmic ray particle hitting my RAM" is extremely rare then think again: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf

I seriously hope that I'm interpreting the numbers from the study in a wrong way otherwise it would mean that in 32 GB RAM you would get 6-20 bit errors per hour.

tl;dr: Star that exploded thousand years ago can seriously screw up your render and/or even system. You can lower the chance of that happening by using ECC RAM.