Author Topic: Discussions about people's expectations, Corona developement, life and other things  (Read 4954 times)

2021-06-07, 10:57:14
Reply #30

aaouviz

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
    • Another Angle 3D
wow - whats the problem here guys?  you dont think a world wide pandemic could be the reason why things have slowed down a little?  By little, i mean, little.  The dailies have been coming out fairly frequently and some exciting new features are coming our way, all of which shouldnt change the renders youre producing now all that dramatically - if much at all.  If youre looking for the holy grail, then as they say, its not the tools but the person using it.  I will say though, as ive said many times, the slicer/clipper is well overdue but apart from that, all seems to be progressing well.

peace.

Yep, a lot of ungrateful and impatient people here.

Corona team, keep up the good work.

2021-06-07, 11:01:42
Reply #31

smadiswelem

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
From the moment you merged with the chaos group, development and new features are very limited compared to what it was before

2021-06-07, 11:56:28
Reply #32

Ryuu

  • Corona Team
  • Active Users
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
  • Michal
    • View Profile
Hello everyone, sorry that we had to delay the new tone mapping until Corona Renderer 8. Unfortunately, we have grossly underestimated the amount of groundwork we would need for this task. The biggest things, for example:
  • Making the tone mapping pipeline configurable basically means completely redoing the way we handle tone mapping in Corona. Unfortunately, it is tightly bound to lots of code in both Corona itself and our 3ds Max plugin, which needed lots of changes and tweaking.
  • At the same time, we're currently in the middle of switching to a new UI framework. On one hand, this will have lots of benefits in the future because with the current framework, we sometimes need to spend a huge amount of time to work around some bugs or unimplemented features. On the other hand, there is always a learning curve when you start using some new tool, and unfortunately, we have underestimated how much that will impact our work on this task.
Several times we were at the stage where it looked like we would need just 2-3 more weeks to finish this task, only to hit some road block which delayed us for another week or two, if we wanted to do things properly instead of just quickly hacking some workaround that would just bite us in the ass further down the line. Unfortunately, we're still in a similar stage, and so we were faced with a tough decision where all the options would lead to a disappointment:
  • We could just delay the V7 release for a few weeks, put the team in an extended crunch mode and rush the code to make it into the V7 release. This way, however we wouldn't have enough time for polishing both the UI and functionality based on your feedback. We would also be asking to have to do a V7 hotfix just for fixing the bugs introduced during this rush.
  • We could delay this for V8, releasing it in the first few V8 daily builds, and then have the whole V8 release cycle for polishing and implementing even more new tone mapping operators based on your feedback.
Going with the first option would probably be good only as an excuse for ticking off the "done" checkbox on Trello while not really having any benefit for you. For that reason, we have decided to delay this feature for V8. We're planning a bigger post with further explanation & some video/pictures showing the current state of the new pipeline.

Just one note about the amount and importance of new features - please keep in mind that some things that might seem small and really unimportant to you may be essential for someone else, and it may have been something that was preventing them from using some feature in Corona (or using Corona at all). This discussion is a good example of that, where some of you are understandably disappointed that we had to delay the new tone mapping for V8, while others don't mind or even think that this feature is not needed at all. There have been many more bugfixes, optimizations and features done in V7 than what is shown in the Trello board and we'll be updating the board later today with some other bigger items.

P.S. Sorry for this being announced just by moving the tonemapping card on Trello. I wanted to move the card today along with some explanatory post here on the forum, unfortunately, the Trello board got updated prematurely due to some miscommunication.

2021-06-07, 12:17:04
Reply #33

bluebox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
wow - whats the problem here guys?  you dont think a world wide pandemic could be the reason why things have slowed down a little?  By little, i mean, little.  The dailies have been coming out fairly frequently and some exciting new features are coming our way, all of which shouldnt change the renders youre producing now all that dramatically - if much at all.  If youre looking for the holy grail, then as they say, its not the tools but the person using it.  I will say though, as ive said many times, the slicer/clipper is well overdue but apart from that, all seems to be progressing well.

peace.

Yep, a lot of ungrateful and impatient people here.

Corona team, keep up the good work.

Yep, a lot of fanboys also here lmao. You're gratefull to Nike for your shoes ? You pay for them, you expect certain quality you paid for. You praise your support on Nike forums to a company that earns on your purchase ? This is getting more and more hilarious.

I am a paying customer as long as the product delivers and has the features I need for my business. My sympathy or lack of (guys seem nice)  is irrelevant.

Hilarious most of you are bit*** on autodesk for not delivering, yet you are completely fine with others not delivering. Strange dissonance.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-07, 12:24:12 by bluebox »

2021-06-07, 13:58:15
Reply #34

Mohammadreza Mohseni

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
    • Instagram
I do not care about the tonemapper either (absolutely understand the people's frustration though), but the development still is slow. we can call v7 something like v6.5 not that big release.
corona as a part of the chaos group ecosystem (still no news on vantage or cosmos support for corona either) can surely use their already new metallic/roughness workflow concept with the exact layers like coat and sheen (thank you for the nice touches on this like specular/ior switch and conversion). it seems really long time to just get this already solved feature, plus, a really bad converter (personally I replace the 1.45version every time I install a new corona daily build). I hope Ondra still working on Corona.

hope to see way more exciting new features in future releases.

thanks corona team for developing this awesome render engine
« Last Edit: 2021-06-07, 14:02:06 by Mohammadreza Mohseni »

2021-06-07, 14:27:07
Reply #35

scionik

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Hello everyone, sorry that we had to delay the new tone mapping until Corona Renderer 8. Unfortunately, we have grossly underestimated the amount of groundwork we would need for this task. The biggest things, for example:
  • Making the tone mapping pipeline configurable basically means completely redoing the way we handle tone mapping in Corona. Unfortunately, it is tightly bound to lots of code in both Corona itself and our 3ds Max plugin, which needed lots of changes and tweaking.
  • At the same time, we're currently in the middle of switching to a new UI framework. On one hand, this will have lots of benefits in the future because with the current framework, we sometimes need to spend a huge amount of time to work around some bugs or unimplemented features. On the other hand, there is always a learning curve when you start using some new tool, and unfortunately, we have underestimated how much that will impact our work on this task.
Several times we were at the stage where it looked like we would need just 2-3 more weeks to finish this task, only to hit some road block which delayed us for another week or two, if we wanted to do things properly instead of just quickly hacking some workaround that would just bite us in the ass further down the line. Unfortunately, we're still in a similar stage, and so we were faced with a tough decision where all the options would lead to a disappointment:
  • We could just delay the V7 release for a few weeks, put the team in an extended crunch mode and rush the code to make it into the V7 release. This way, however we wouldn't have enough time for polishing both the UI and functionality based on your feedback. We would also be asking to have to do a V7 hotfix just for fixing the bugs introduced during this rush.
  • We could delay this for V8, releasing it in the first few V8 daily builds, and then have the whole V8 release cycle for polishing and implementing even more new tone mapping operators based on your feedback.
Going with the first option would probably be good only as an excuse for ticking off the "done" checkbox on Trello while not really having any benefit for you. For that reason, we have decided to delay this feature for V8. We're planning a bigger post with further explanation & some video/pictures showing the current state of the new pipeline.

Just one note about the amount and importance of new features - please keep in mind that some things that might seem small and really unimportant to you may be essential for someone else, and it may have been something that was preventing them from using some feature in Corona (or using Corona at all). This discussion is a good example of that, where some of you are understandably disappointed that we had to delay the new tone mapping for V8, while others don't mind or even think that this feature is not needed at all. There have been many more bugfixes, optimizations and features done in V7 than what is shown in the Trello board and we'll be updating the board later today with some other bigger items.

P.S. Sorry for this being announced just by moving the tonemapping card on Trello. I wanted to move the card today along with some explanatory post here on the forum, unfortunately, the Trello board got updated prematurely due to some miscommunication.

Ryuu, Thank you for clarifying the situation. I guess a lot of people were really surprised. I hope we will see new features, plus it would be nice to show us some WIPes, as you mentioned, at least couple of times a month.

2021-06-07, 15:16:14
Reply #36

LorenzoS

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 194
    • View Profile
Hello everyone,
I would like to ask the team if it would be possible to publish on the forum the list of bugs (internalid = xxxxxxx) that have not been solved at the moment and maybe to specify if and when you intend to work on them?

thank you

2021-06-07, 16:18:50
Reply #37

Rendermonkey

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
People, why always this comparsion to VRay?...
If you think there is a feature that you really "need" to manage your everyday work, why don't go and buy a license of Vray instead.
Maybe you focus too much on things you find "missing" in Corona. The team behind Corona is still human, so don't you think they have a right to have a living beside development? Especially in this hard times.

Keep in mind that Chaos Group had started Vray development 24 years ago.

Stay motivated Render Legion!



« Last Edit: 2021-06-07, 16:22:51 by Rendermonkey »

2021-06-07, 16:44:09
Reply #38

dj_buckley

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 464
    • View Profile
It's not people being ungrateful, it's a completely natural and expected reaction to being let down. 

Imo just make the roadmap private and completely eliminate everyones expectations.  I must admit, from a business perspective it's a bit shit to let paying customers see the roadmap with these features on, keep them interested, get them excited enough to keep them paying their subs, just to pull features at the last minute.  You set yourselves up for a case of over promising and under delivering.  Which is never good.  If I did that, i'd fully expect my clients to be disappointed and at worst, not bother coming back.

Tone Mapping was the one feature I was waiting for, that and fixing displacement. The only reasons I've kept my subscription alive and not switched yet.

Like people have already pointed out, it's mostly disappointing because these things already exist in other available engines and have done for some time.  We're not expecting something ground breaking, merely expecting the software we pay for to at least be 'current'.  As far as I can tell, Corona no longer has a USP or any redeeming feature to keep me from switching back to Vray or moving over to FStorm or some other render engine.  Tech is a fast moving space, so if your customers are disappointed or leaving, you can only survive off loyalty for so long imo.  If you can't keep up, you get left behind, it's that simple.








2021-06-07, 16:52:53
Reply #39

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8956
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
I do not care about the tonemapper either (absolutely understand the people's frustration though), but the development still is slow. we can call v7 something like v6.5 not that big release.
corona as a part of the chaos group ecosystem (still no news on vantage or cosmos support for corona either) can surely use their already new metallic/roughness workflow concept with the exact layers like coat and sheen (thank you for the nice touches on this like specular/ior switch and conversion). it seems really long time to just get this already solved feature, plus, a really bad converter (personally I replace the 1.45version every time I install a new corona daily build). I hope Ondra still working on Corona.

hope to see way more exciting new features in future releases.

thanks corona team for developing this awesome render engine

I still work on Corona, but I am doing mostly management nowadays :(. I try to sneak in programming time whenever I can.

BTW: the PBR change was absolutely insane, comparable in scope only with caustics - it is not just new material, it also means new converter, converting the material library, dealing with internal conversions from other sources, etc. - in every place where CoronaMtl was used we tried to replace it with CoronaPhysicalMtl. We also fixed some long-standing issues related to media and fakes when doing the new material. I asked Michal to update Trello to add missing features that we already did, so you get better picture what is new in v7.

Covid affected us mostly through closure of schools and kindergartens (which were more or less closed for a year now). Some of the programmers have small kids and they were unable to properly focus with kids at home. Plus organization is more difficult when there is no option to talk face to face. This is the main reason why intervals between releases got longer. Hopefully this is now over, we have vaccinations available for everyone in Czech Republic now.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-07, 17:21:22
Reply #40

lupaz

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 665
    • View Profile
I do not care about the tonemapper either (absolutely understand the people's frustration though), but the development still is slow. we can call v7 something like v6.5 not that big release.
corona as a part of the chaos group ecosystem (still no news on vantage or cosmos support for corona either) can surely use their already new metallic/roughness workflow concept with the exact layers like coat and sheen (thank you for the nice touches on this like specular/ior switch and conversion). it seems really long time to just get this already solved feature, plus, a really bad converter (personally I replace the 1.45version every time I install a new corona daily build). I hope Ondra still working on Corona.

hope to see way more exciting new features in future releases.

thanks corona team for developing this awesome render engine

I still work on Corona, but I am doing mostly management nowadays :(. I try to sneak in programming time whenever I can.


A waste of talent IMO.
I once went from being a creative to being management and was a huge mistake, and very hard to go back while in the same company.
I really hope you can convince yourself to go back to programming full time.

2021-06-07, 17:40:38
Reply #41

bluebox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
People, why always this comparsion to VRay?...
If you think there is a feature that you really "need" to manage your everyday work, why don't go and buy a license of Vray instead.
Maybe you focus too much on things you find "missing" in Corona. The team behind Corona is still human, so don't you think they have a right to have a living beside development? Especially in this hard times.

Keep in mind that Chaos Group had started Vray development 24 years ago.

Stay motivated Render Legion!

I get goose bumps when listening to such bull**** seriously. This mental emotional fanboyism in this industry is just insane.

Gues what, I admire Ondra for his brains and sense of humour. Ryuu for being able to maintain composure in circumstances of people being really frustrated of features being postponed again and answering in calm and polite manner. I'm pretty sure we'd had an awesome chat enjoying a bottle of beer at SOA in Venice or any other event as they are simply cool guys IMHO.

All this is irrelevant and people opinions are not personal. We and you are ffs paying clients. This relation is pure business one. Noone has anything against Corona Team personally. We are concerned business wise. This market is getting incresingly more competitive on many aspects. We use this software in many ways. Either you keep up or not. If you're looking for friends please do so outside of the forum or in private messages and lets keep this as merit as possible.

Swithing from one soft to another week after week is just not an option. Have you for example thought about creating and maintaining model libraries and material libraries ? I wrote about this many times, to create a logical groud-up structure. Develop core features first like bullet-proof shader so people create their mat and model library once and never come back, or come back to it after 10 years (asuming offline renderers will still exist). Same goes with lighting setups corelated with tonemapping.

We did all those thins already and spent quite substantial amount of time on it and then comes new shader and in near future tonemapping. Obviously our model/mat lib would look way better with the new shader as the new diffuse model is simply better.

Therefore reliable roadmap is simply a must so people investing or possibly making a switch know what to expect and when to expect it. Period

And oh, COVID. We all (mostly) have children, mortgages to pay and so on. Corona Team isn't the only one affected. We all are. So quit excusing and advocating on not your own behalf with any nonsense argument you can think of.


2021-06-07, 17:44:34
Reply #42

bluebox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
People, why always this comparsion to VRay?...
If you think there is a feature that you really "need" to manage your everyday work, why don't go and buy a license of Vray instead.
Maybe you focus too much on things you find "missing" in Corona. The team behind Corona is still human, so don't you think they have a right to have a living beside development? Especially in this hard times.

Keep in mind that Chaos Group had started Vray development 24 years ago.

Stay motivated Render Legion!

I get goose bumps when listening to such bull**** seriously. This mental emotional fanboyism in this industry is just insane.

Gues what, I admire Ondra for his brains and sense of humour. Ryuu for being able to maintain composure in circumstances of people being really frustrated of features being postponed again and answering in calm and polite manner. I'm pretty sure we'd had an awesome chat enjoying a bottle of beer at SOA in Venice or any other event as they are simply cool guys IMHO.

All this is irrelevant and people opinions are not personal. We and you are ffs paying clients. This relation is pure business one. Noone has anything against Corona Team personally. We are concerned business wise. This market is getting incresingly more competitive on many aspects. We use this software in many ways. Either you keep up or not. If you're looking for friends please do so outside of the forum or in private messages and lets keep this as merit as possible.

Swithing from one soft to another week after week is just not an option. Have you for example thought about creating and maintaining model libraries and material libraries ? I wrote about this many times, to create a logical groud-up structure. Develop core features first like bullet-proof shader so people create their mat and model library once and never come back, or come back to it after 10 years (asuming offline renderers will still exist). Same goes with lighting setups corelated with tonemapping.

We did all those thins already and spent quite substantial amount of time on it and then comes new shader and in near future tonemapping. Obviously our model/mat lib would look way better with the new shader as the new diffuse model is simply better.

Therefore reliable roadmap is simply a must so people investing or possibly making a switch know what to expect and when to expect it. Period

And oh, COVID. We all (mostly) have children, mortgages to pay and so on. Corona Team isn't the only one affected. We all are. So quit excusing and advocating on not your own behalf with any nonsense argument you can think of.

Show goes on. A thing to remember that Autodesk was revolutionary at some point too. They delivered untill they mostly did not deliver and gained a reputation we all know and most of us share with little features and insane rates. Few steps at a time.

Wanted to edit but somehow replied to myself. Please some mod merge the posts thank you.

2021-06-07, 18:01:13
Reply #43

bluebox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile

I still work on Corona, but I am doing mostly management nowadays :(. I try to sneak in programming time whenever I can.


True loss of potential. Thought it unfortunately is this way. We went from developing features overnight to developing over months. Bad move IMO. Miss the old days seeing Ondra posting that something people came up with last evening or few days ago is now complete.

2021-06-07, 19:07:24
Reply #44

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8956
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
Miss the old days seeing Ondra posting that something people came up with last evening or few days ago is now complete.

Honestly it is comments like this that made me stop reading forum every day:
And oh, COVID. We all (mostly) have children, mortgages to pay and so on. Corona Team isn't the only one affected. We all are. So quit excusing and advocating on not your own behalf with any nonsense argument you can think of.

If you are not satisfied with Corona on a fundamental level, please use another renderer, you will be happier.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)