Infrared Filter Render

[Dippndots]

So this is a bit out there, but I was wondering if it were possible to add the ability to render out images in the infrared spectrum?

[maru]

Interesting idea. I think this is rather a matter of clever post processing. So maybe some 3rd party app or a proper LUT could do this. I'll try googling around and report back if I find anything useful. :)

[Dippndots]

Yeah you can definitely fake it in photoshop, but it doesn't quite match a photo taken with an infrared filter, so I thought the same for a render. It seems like it would be better to convert at render time with all the source color info and lighting.

[maru]

Yeah you can definitely fake it in photoshop, but it doesn't quite match a photo taken with an infrared filter, so I thought the same for a render. It seems like it would be better to convert at render time with all the source color info and lighting.

I do not mean faking. I mean using a filter and white balance, just like you do in real life.

[Juraj]

It's not post-processing, just like polarization isn't :- ) I always wanted polarized renders, to globally tone speculars and get that nice rich blue sky ! Yeah you can override directly visible and reflection, but it's not the same, because this modifies the scene.

Basically, fakes aren't the real deal here. I've seen this request many times on Vray's forum without much answer.

[Dippndots]

Like Juraj pointed out, I don't think there's a way to do this without making the calculations at the source.

[romullus]

So this is a bit out there, but I was wondering if it were possible to add the ability to render out images in the infrared spectrum?

Of course it's possible, i'm doing that all the time :]

P.S. invert foliage diffuse and/or translucency maps and you'll get nice fake infrared render. Additionally you may also want to play with various luts.

[Dippndots]

How have you done the sky Romullus?

[romullus]

Google images->direct override :]

Edit: i've tried to plug Corona sky via color correct map, but didn't managed to achieve anything decent.

[Dippndots]

Ok, your method is definitely an option, but I think a built-in conversion would be the best solution. I know this shouldn't be a priority though, it's a pretty off the wall feature.

[romullus]

My method is just gimmick, it works only in very specific cases, but infrared rendering is very niche and i suspect its implementation is not a trivial thing. I highly doubt it will happens anytime soon, if ever.

[Ondra]

yep, I can just move this to resolved, as there is almost zero chance this will ever be implemented (unless somebody is willing to finance this specific feature)

[Dippndots]

Lol, for sure Ondra, it just popped into my head yesterday on my way home, just thought it would be kinda neat.

[burnin]

For those interested, there's an engine that can do all that and then some... Ocean by Eclat Digital.

[Tanakov]

yep, I can just move this to resolved, as there is almost zero chance this will ever be implemented (unless somebody is willing to finance this specific feature)

Whats the cost per feature :?

[Juraj]

For those interested, there's an engine that can do all that and then some... Ocean by Eclat Digital.

Jeez, that's something :- ) Super impressive !

Must try it on something.

Edit:

Ocean 2016 renders are now saved with embedded color profiles. Multiple output color spaces are available, from the standard sRGB to the XYZ space which does not crop any color.

Holy crap, this scientific renderer does everything right. Fucking full A-to-Z color management, why it's so hard for others to integrate ? The only reason people don't ask for it it's because they're ignorant and work on shit displays, which is funny considering we work in graphic industry.

Spectral rendering to AdobeRGB for no gamut clipping is pretty awesome thing, but I would kill for simply the option to export properly (not fake assigning) in higher-gamut format. Currently anything else than assigning (old and clipped) sRGB which is barely good enough for glorified calculators results in expected color shift. Everyone working in product visualization would kill for it, as you cannot currently re-create rich colors, 3dsMax/Corona (and every other renderer) ignores color space completely.

[johan belmans]

For those interested, there's an engine that can do all that and then some... Ocean by Eclat Digital.

Jeez, that's something :- ) Super impressive !

Must try it on something.

Looks amazing, but did you see the price? :-)

[Juraj]

Looks amazing, but did you see the price? :-)

I am blind :- D Where is the price ?

[Dippndots]

The render times seemed pretty astronomical as well depending on the "effect" you're rendering ;)

Really cool render options though, I guess one day these will all be integrated into other renders just like GI :P

[Juraj]

The render times seemed pretty astronomical as well depending on the "effect" you're rendering ;)

Really cool render options though, I guess one day these will all be integrated into other renders just like GI :P

Well, serves a pretty specific purpose, but rather impressive :- ) So where is the price guys... ? I am blind.

Still, some of those features could be integrated just fine, like color-management. I will never ever get why it's ignored. Seems like elementary must-have.

[Dippndots]

http://www.eclat-digital.com/versions-and-pricing/

I'm always surprised at how many people are content with $200 TN panels for monitors, using the age old argument "our clients are using even worse monitors, who cares if the colors are a bit off".

[racoonart]

I for one have never learned proper color management but I'd like to learn it. It just looks like a huge mess and talking to Photoshop users doesn't help, I can assure you.
So are there any comprehensive resources you'd recommend?

[Juraj]

The big issue currently is, you can't even re-create rich colors. You need to capture (DSLRs can) and save them in higher-gamut format, like AdobeRGB (let's ignore ProPhoto and other niches) along with proper color-profile.
This is essential if you need to capture rich colors like saturated green fabric for calibrated product shots.

3dsMax then "kinds of" is able to read it and shows it but only for anything else than sRGB (but without giving you the option to make sure it's interpreted correctly, btw Maya can do it), but Corona framebuffer is not color-managed, so it just shows the display gamut (looks oversaturated on wider-gamut displays). It doesn't assign a profile, but to retain correct input colors, you needs to assign sRGB profile in Photoshop or other post-production software to retain consistency. And sRGB absolutely clips colors, but if you had AdobeRGB texture, it will actually 'assign' (not convert to !) sRGB (Corona framebuffer or 3dsMax, not sure which does it) by brute force, and it's incorrect again (shifted, thus undersaturated because bigger space to lower space).

Well, it's one big inconsistent mess, and the only way to currently work, is use sRGB textures (or no color profiles, 3dsMax will think of them as sRGB anyway), clamp your Windows and Display to sRGB (so your viewport and Corona framebuffer show sRGB colors), and then assign sRGB in Photoshop or else in the end. Basically only pure, 100perc. sRGB workflow is correct, nothing else. One incorrect step (aRGB texture or aRGB assign in Photoshop) and it's wrong.

But fucking sRGB is 50 years old shit standard. Just look how sad it is:



We need proper input/output color managed pipeline. So the textures needs to be interpreted correctly with their respective color profiles, CoronaFramebuffer needs to be able to previews in color profile of choice ( when Photoshop reads linear files, it assigns preview of color profile of choise, so it can be linear-"sRGB" or linear-"aRGB", etc..) and output in respective color profile of choice.
Then it would be possible to maintain full color spectrum until the very end, and clamp to sRGB only after everything is done in Photoshop before export to web, but keep full correct colors for print if needed.

3dsMax is lost case but Corona could definitely do following:

CoronaBitmap would read color-profiles, like Maya bitmap does. Choose your color space and gamma. Keep default sRGB, no one who doesn't want don't need to touch it.
Framebuffer would preview in color-profiles. sRGB by default. Option to show aRGB for those with wide-gamut panel (everybody with better than 500 euro shit).
Output with color-profile for managed post-production. Exactly as the above Ocean does.

[Juraj]

I for one have never learned proper color management but I'd like to learn it. It just looks like a huge mess and talking to Photoshop users doesn't help, I can assure you.
So are there any comprehensive resources you'd recommend?

Lot of PS users, but even advanced compositors, don't know or care, because by default, all those softwares have Color Settings set to assign and convert to sRGB by default, to avoid confusing users.
The only people who start to wonder are those who buy 1000 euro pro-display, and suddenly realize framebuffer and Photoshop don't match. And the issue is not on Photoshop side :- ). And currently, it can't be solved, if you assign anything else than sRGB you get incorrect colors.
While Corona is not spectral renderer, it does color calculation in wider gamut color spectrum, so it should have no issue with implementing color managed pipeline.

It never occurs to most people, that if they import tiff or openexr to Photoshop, that Photoshop actually does color conversion by default to non-managed inputs (you have to specify "ask when opening" to avoid it). Thankfully to them, the correct one right now (but still clamping). The people asking to match what they see in framebuffer on high-end monitors are actually incorrect in demand, because the framebuffer is wrong, not Photoshop.

[Dippndots]

What's your take on HDR monitors Juraj? Do you think it might kick-start some of these needed gamut improvements because more and more regular Joes will have cheap access to them?

[Juraj]

What's your take on HDR monitors Juraj? Do you think it might kick-start some of these needed gamut improvements because more and more regular Joes will have cheap access to them?

I didn't pay much attention to them :- ) So you probably know more, but my impression was this would be excellent for media but not so much for work where I need it to be consistent.

Regarding changes...I am doubtful. Microsoft actually started ignoring it with the rise of smartphones and tablets. The new Windows 10 image viewer is not even managed (the old one is), so...
But eventually, I guess maybe. Just like most people now buy IPS/PLS/IGZO  TN/VA/etc.. 8-10bit color panes with wider color gamuts will become more mainstream.... or maybe not. Stuff like HDR and 144HZ frequency is in more demand.

[Dippndots]

This is the article that clued me into their existence: http://www.pcgamer.com/amd-rtg-summit-hdr-displays-freesync-and-more/

I think you're right, they'll definitely be aimed at media like games/movies, but hopefully they saturate the market enough that working in wider gamuts is worth the extra cost of hardware/time.

[Juraj]

What might imho though, is the big rise of hobby photography. Mirrorless APS-C are penetrating the market like no tomorrow, that might give demand to mainstream accessible wide-gamut monitors. People want to see their selfies in good fidelity :- )

[Ondra]

can you create separate thread for this? I can tell you that we will be probably able to give you correct calibrated display in wide RGB


BUT, as always, 3dsmax is the problem: you would not be able to properly save it using 3dsmax image loaders/savers - you would have to use some Corona's own EXR/JPG/PNG/... save dialog

[Juraj]

can you create separate thread for this? I can tell you that we will be probably able to give you correct calibrated display in wide RGB


BUT, as always, 3dsmax is the problem: you would not be able to properly save it using 3dsmax image loaders/savers - you would have to use some Corona's own EXR/JPG/PNG/... save dialog

I would be totally ok if that's what it would take :- ) As I said, Max is the biggest culprit here.

I got side-tracked, I'll definitely make a proper thread eventually, but this isn't ultimately that important as stuff we're getting these days :- ). It's just first time I've seen a renderer that actually does it ( Maya does it, but that's the whole package and it still probably depends on how the renderer collaborates with it). I am just continuously baffled why every 2D package is fully color managed, yet almost none of 3D ones are, like, not even in the most basic sense.