Corona Renderer Forum

Corona Renderer for 3ds Max => [Max] General Discussion => Topic started by: selene on 2019-09-26, 20:34:47

Title: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-09-26, 20:34:47
Hello friends,

my name is Ondra (but not Ondra, the lead software developer :) ), I'm new Corona Renderer software developer.

First of all, I would like to express my deepest admiration for your work - visiting the forum's Gallery section and seeing the images you are creating provide true pleasure for the eyes :)

In part of our commitment to continually improve Corona rendering performance, we decided to deeply investigate the issue of Interactive Rendering slowdowns and / or freezes, that some users reported to us. The problem is, that we struggle to reproduce this slowdowns ourselves, so I decided to reach out to you, our dear users, to try to find some clues, which could help us to find the cause of these (potential) issues.

What would really help us is to find some specific cases and / or ideally 3DS Max scenes which manifest this issue, together with information in which version of Corona / Autodesk 3DS Max Interactive Rendering used to work fine (better / faster) and in which version it started to feel slower. If you don't have example scene but you know of some case when the slowdown occurs, please also feel free to write it here. Please describe it as specifically as possible, ideally mentioning version of Autodesk 3DS Max used, version of Corona Renderer, using / having installed additional plugins (and their versions), information about your OS and hardware.

Further if you experience any needless restarts of interactive rendering, or any information (or screen recordings etc.) which you think could be relevant, don't hesitate to mention it here :)

Also feel free to contact me with any additional feedback you'd like to share about your experience by sending me a message.

Thank you very much in advance for taking the time to provide us some clues - your feedback is invaluable, as at the moment, without ability to pinpoint some specific case, we really struggle to find the cause of this problem.

Have a nice day :)
Ondra

P.S. I am aware of the fact, that there are already some topics on this forums dedicated to this issue, but some of them are now really old and we are not sure if the problems mentioned there still persist. Therefore I decided to create this topic to get any relevant information under one roof. :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: arqrenderz on 2019-09-28, 16:57:33
Hi selene, thx for the interest, IR is the most important tool for us, so yes i have a report of IR restarting with some forest, i have filled a bug report, the support ticket of the fresh desk is the #177229, developers say the manage to reproduce the bug but we havent heard of it since. its happening for us on almost every scene now, and the only solution for us is to hide this objects to work on the scene and unhide them and make a real render of it just to see how its looking (very time consmuing process, and if the ir is launched with the forest active we need to forece close the 3dsmax and loose the changes again)

thx again!
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: steyin on 2019-09-30, 22:29:45
I've noticed that as of late, any exports I get from coworkers from Rhino 5 (mainly OBJ) are creating long parsing times and slow IR at the beginning. It seems to balance off after a few mins, but I've never had the issue before. I'm running Max 2017 and Corona 4 HF1.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-01, 10:29:01
Hi selene, thx for the interest, IR is the most important tool for us, so yes i have a report of IR restarting with some forest, i have filled a bug report, the support ticket of the fresh desk is the #177229, developers say the manage to reproduce the bug but we havent heard of it since. its happening for us on almost every scene now, and the only solution for us is to hide this objects to work on the scene and unhide them and make a real render of it just to see how its looking (very time consmuing process, and if the ir is launched with the forest active we need to forece close the 3dsmax and loose the changes again)

thx again!

Hello Arqrenderz, thank you very much for your feedback. I'll have a look on the issue.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-01, 10:31:17
I've noticed that as of late, any exports I get from coworkers from Rhino 5 (mainly OBJ) are creating long parsing times and slow IR at the beginning. It seems to balance off after a few mins, but I've never had the issue before. I'm running Max 2017 and Corona 4 HF1.

Hello Steyin, thank you very much for your feedback. Please could you provide us such scene so we could investigate the cause of this issue?

You can use either our Private Uploader: https://corona-renderer.com/upload or you can send it to me as a private message. No uploaded files will be shared with anybody else or used for purposes other than debugging Corona without explicit permission.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Designerman77 on 2019-10-01, 10:39:36
Hey Ondra,

in C4D, iMac Pro 2018, OS High Sierra, I sometimes also experience Corona crashing after using IR.
Seems to happen in big scenes... not often... but two-three times it occured.

I´ll keep an eye on it... maybe there is a pattern in the cause.

Thanks for your constant optimization of Corona.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: sprayer on 2019-10-01, 14:02:29
I am not notice IR slowdown only parsing time sometimes very long. I recently makes renders with particles with tyFlow, particles was not much ~100k(low poly spheres) and it start slowing parsing. I accidentally apply to particles light material and this was looks like freeze i don't wait more than 5m and start to investigate what it cause, but that's very much time for parsing only 100k spheres IMHO. Corona 4.1
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-01, 14:25:27
@sprayer, AFAIK when you assign lights to particles, then it brakes instancing of those lights. I think with 100K unique lights, you can expect very slow parsing.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: sprayer on 2019-10-01, 15:30:36
Yes i was think about it, but without light material it is also add about ~5s for parsing scene what slowing response from IR
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-01, 19:13:11
Hey Ondra,

in C4D, iMac Pro 2018, OS High Sierra, I sometimes also experience Corona crashing after using IR.
Seems to happen in big scenes... not often... but two-three times it occured.

I´ll keep an eye on it... maybe there is a pattern in the cause.

Thanks for your constant optimization of Corona.

Hello Designerman77, thank you very much for your feedback. If you would discover some case where the crashes are repeatedly occuring, please let us know and we will try to reproduce and investigate the problem. :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Designerman77 on 2019-10-01, 20:07:49
Hey Ondra,

in C4D, iMac Pro 2018, OS High Sierra, I sometimes also experience Corona crashing after using IR.
Seems to happen in big scenes... not often... but two-three times it occured.

I´ll keep an eye on it... maybe there is a pattern in the cause.

Thanks for your constant optimization of Corona.

Hello Designerman77, thank you very much for your feedback. If you would discover some case where the crashes are repeatedly occuring, please let us know and we will try to reproduce and investigate the problem. :)



You can bet that I will do that. :) I would also give you the scene.
Until now I could only notice that IR sometimes crashes, if I made a lot of changes in the scene very quickly - like every few seconds a change.

Regarding parsing time, I noticed that some scenes are simply parsing quicker than others.
Tried erasing parts of the scene... until it remained literally almost empty. Still the same long parsing...

In other scenes that are much bigger, parsing is much quicker...
Strange phenomenon that I had noticed also in previous Corona versions.

I´ll continue testing.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: steyin on 2019-10-02, 16:52:35
Hello Steyin, thank you very much for your feedback. Please could you provide us such scene so we could investigate the cause of this issue?

You can use either our Private Uploader: https://corona-renderer.com/upload (https://corona-renderer.com/upload) or you can send it to me as a private message. No uploaded files will be shared with anybody else or used for purposes other than debugging Corona without explicit permission.
I'll try to get you the scene along with a former one with a different Rhino export. The one I'm currently using might be heavier due to the modeling of the import...since its from the city of NY and who knows if they know what they're doing. I finally rendered the scene however for final renders and noticed the parsing times were only a few seconds compared to nearly 20-30 for IR.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-03, 10:29:59
Yes i was think about it, but without light material it is also add about ~5s for parsing scene what slowing response from IR

I asked about this issue my colleague and he agreed that in this case, the slowdown is currently expected, since as romullus mentioned:
Quote
when you assign lights to particles, then it breaks instancing of those lights
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-03, 10:37:30
Hello Steyin, thank you very much for your feedback. Please could you provide us such scene so we could investigate the cause of this issue?

You can use either our Private Uploader: https://corona-renderer.com/upload (https://corona-renderer.com/upload) or you can send it to me as a private message. No uploaded files will be shared with anybody else or used for purposes other than debugging Corona without explicit permission.
I'll try to get you the scene along with a former one with a different Rhino export. The one I'm currently using might be heavier due to the modeling of the import...since its from the city of NY and who knows if they know what they're doing. I finally rendered the scene however for final renders and noticed the parsing times were only a few seconds compared to nearly 20-30 for IR.

Steyin, the difference between parsing times for IR and final renders should definitely not be so big - there is certainly some problem (maybe on our side). If you could provide us the scene so we could have a look at it, it would help us a lot with finding the potential issues.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Alexandre Besson on 2019-10-03, 10:41:51
Forestpack and railclone (itoo software plugin for 3dsmax) slow down deeply the iR.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: steyin on 2019-10-03, 16:10:52

Steyin, the difference between parsing times for IR and final renders should definitely not be so big - there is certainly some problem (maybe on our side). If you could provide us the scene so we could have a look at it, it would help us a lot with finding the potential issues.
I uploaded the scene in question. Initial parsing time was around 30 seconds, seems it is due to the Rhino geometry, but switching between viewports IR was ok. Every now and again it slows down a little though. Still, hitting render instead of IR parsing was 4-5 seconds.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-04, 00:04:02
Just finished my first test between Corona 1.5 Hotfix 2 and Corona 4 HF1.

The difference is HUGE!
Edit: Huge difference meaning Corona 1.5's IR is WAY better.

My process was:

In a windows 10 workstation, with 3ds max 2016,

1-I uninstalled Corona 4
2- installed Corona 1.5
3- I opened an old-ish scene that I knew didn't have the latest developments.
4- Made it simple enough to not run our of memmory or to make IR decently fluid.
5- Tested IR. Works nice.
6- Installed Corona 4
7- Opened the same scene
7.5- Dismissed the warnings about the new displacement and refraction (I think it was).
8- Set IR subsampling to 0
9- Started IR
10- cried when I saw the difference.

One thing to note is that with Corona 1.5 I get the "Fault Tolerant Heap" warning. With Corona 4 I didn't.


Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: TomG on 2019-10-04, 00:49:58
Can you send us the scene via private uploader?
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-04, 01:00:42
Here's a video:

I can send you the scene tomorrow, but honestly I believe the issue is scene independent.



Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-04, 10:18:57
Here's a video:

I can send you the scene tomorrow, but honestly I believe the issue is scene independent.
...

Hello lupaz, thank you very much for your feedback and for dedicating your time and energy into recording the video - the slowdown is indeed visible in this case. Since you mentioned that you get "Fault tolerant heap" warning, it is highly probable that this could be the cause of the slowdown. "Fault tolerant heap" is a feature of Microsoft Windows OS, which can get automatically turned on if OS detected multiple crashes of some specific application (in this case 3DS Max). This feature may have severe performance impact on rendering speed. It is not possible to turn off this feature from Corona Renderer, we can only warn our users that it is turned on (as you can see in 0:28), but you can turn it off it manually, as described on our Freshdesk:

https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/5000678431-windows-enabled-fault-tolerant-heap-for-3dsmax-or-dependent-processes-this-may-have-severe-perform (https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/5000678431-windows-enabled-fault-tolerant-heap-for-3dsmax-or-dependent-processes-this-may-have-severe-perform)

I recommend you to turn it off and try the Interactive Rendering again, hopefully it will be much better now. Please let us know if turning off this feature helps.

Anyway, if you could send us the scene you used for this comparison, it would really help us a lot, since we don't have enough "real-world" examples (scenes) where we could reproduce these kind of issues. :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-04, 13:31:15
...
You can bet that I will do that. :) I would also give you the scene.
Until now I could only notice that IR sometimes crashes, if I made a lot of changes in the scene very quickly - like every few seconds a change.

Regarding parsing time, I noticed that some scenes are simply parsing quicker than others.
Tried erasing parts of the scene... until it remained literally almost empty. Still the same long parsing...

In other scenes that are much bigger, parsing is much quicker...
Strange phenomenon that I had noticed also in previous Corona versions.

I´ll continue testing.

Designerman77, if you had some empty scene which parses for a long time, please could you send it to us? This indeed should not happen and we would like to investigate what could be the cause of this issue.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-04, 13:36:25
Forestpack and railclone (itoo software plugin for 3dsmax) slow down deeply the iR.

Hello Alexandre,  thank you very much for your feedback. We are aware of this problem and currently we are still investigating whether it is some fault on our side or if the slowdowns are caused by aforementioned plug-ins. Also if you could provide us some scene which manifests this issue, it would help us a lot. :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-04, 13:42:26
...

I uploaded the scene in question. Initial parsing time was around 30 seconds, seems it is due to the Rhino geometry, but switching between viewports IR was ok. Every now and again it slows down a little though. Still, hitting render instead of IR parsing was 4-5 seconds.

Steyin, thank you very much for the scene. We are going to have a look at it. :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-04, 15:26:16
Anyway, if you could send us the scene you used for this comparison, it would really help us a lot, since we don't have enough "real-world" examples (scenes) where we could reproduce these kind of issues. :)

I'm uploading the file to dropbox. The file name is 044.zip.

Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-04, 15:38:04
I recommend you to turn it off and try the Interactive Rendering again, hopefully it will be much better now. Please let us know if turning off this feature helps.

I did.
There was no difference.
IR behaves like on the video.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: rowmanns on 2019-10-04, 16:45:37
I recommend you to turn it off and try the Interactive Rendering again, hopefully it will be much better now. Please let us know if turning off this feature helps.

I did.
There was no difference.
IR behaves like on the video.

Hi,

Did you also try with subsampling enabled and disabled to see if this has any effect?

Cheers,

Rowan
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-04, 16:54:57
I recommend you to turn it off and try the Interactive Rendering again, hopefully it will be much better now. Please let us know if turning off this feature helps.

I did.
There was no difference.
IR behaves like on the video.



Hi,

Did you also try with subsampling enabled and disabled to see if this has any effect?

Cheers,

Rowan


I didn't try that. Because with those big pixels it's very hard to compare.
I dislike that style of IR.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-09, 19:05:13
Anyway, if you could send us the scene you used for this comparison, it would really help us a lot, since we don't have enough "real-world" examples (scenes) where we could reproduce these kind of issues. :)

I'm uploading the file to dropbox. The file name is 044.zip.

Hi.
Did you guys receive the scene? I was wondering if you got the same outcome.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-10, 10:41:59
Here's a video:

I can send you the scene tomorrow, but honestly I believe the issue is scene independent.


I am not saying that this is not true, and actually in my simple tests I had the same impression, that in older versions IR was (or at least felt) faster, but here is what actually happens in the above video:

Older version: image is rendered.....camera is moved.....the previous rendering remains in the background and pixels from the new rendering start appearing immediately on top of it.....after some time the 1st pass is finished and next passes continue
Newer version: image is rendered.....camera is moved.....the previous rendering remains in the background, but pixels from the new rendering do not start appearing.....after some time the 1st pass is finished and is then placed on top of the previous rendering

So the way it works is simply different in 1.5 and newer versions, and it is hard to compare render/refresh times. Basically, in 1.5 IR creates this fade-in effect, which is not there in newer versions.
This "new image interactively blending on top of the old one" effect definitely adds to the feeling of better speed and responsiveness, and I described it in my internal report id=371632450
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-10, 17:18:24
Yes! Please!:

- Bring back "new image interactively blending on top of the old one"
- Remove the, in my opinion, unnecessary IR subsampling (at least by default)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-10, 19:41:37
- Remove the, in my opinion, unnecessary IR subsampling (at least by default)

Personally i find IR subsampling to be very useful and i certainly don't agree with your opinion. If you don't like it, then turn it off and save the settings as defaults. Problem solved!
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-10, 21:56:26
- Remove the, in my opinion, unnecessary IR subsampling (at least by default)

Personally i find IR subsampling to be very useful and i certainly don't agree with your opinion. If you don't like it, then turn it off and save the settings as defaults. Problem solved!

How is it useful to you, out of curiosity?

BTW, I'm not the only one who finds the subsampling annoying.
Quite honestly I don't know what is the purpose for it, and why it was brought up in the first place.
The only scenario I can see it being somehow useful is with very simple scenes.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-11, 10:16:59
How is it useful to you, out of curiosity?

It can help with setting up the composition, lighting, etc. It is easier to see the changes immediately, rather than if you move your mouse....wait....and only then observe the changes. Basically, it makes IR more responsive to your actions. See this video:
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-11, 16:46:33
The link to the video seems to be broken.

Maru, wouldn't this "new image interactively blending on top of the old one" does/used to do that anyway?

It is easier to see the changes immediately

The changes don't show immediately. You can see big squares of color that hardly tell you much. The composition can be seen on the viewport in real time anyway
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-11, 16:56:52
A quote by Juraj, who I respect a lot.


Didn't find sub-sampling to help much since when IR is slow, this will further obfuscate the image in buffer by making it unrecognizable during those 2 seconds freeze. Without sub-sampling, I can at least directly compare changes.

Sometime all those hang-ups in bigger scenes make regular hit/quit rendering a lot faster to facilitate iteration for me.


Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-11, 16:59:41
The link to the video seems to be broken.

Maru, wouldn't this "new image interactively blending on top of the old one" does/used to do that anyway?

It is easier to see the changes immediately

The changes don't show immediately. You can see big squares of color that hardly tell you much. The composition can be seen on the viewport in real time anyway

Fixed the link - https://youtu.be/nAx9_EDyxCw (https://youtu.be/nAx9_EDyxCw)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-11, 17:03:47
A quote by Juraj, who I respect a lot.


Didn't find sub-sampling to help much since when IR is slow, this will further obfuscate the image in buffer by making it unrecognizable during those 2 seconds freeze. Without sub-sampling, I can at least directly compare changes.

Sometime all those hang-ups in bigger scenes make regular hit/quit rendering a lot faster to facilitate iteration for me.


Another quote by Juraj from September 27:
Quote
the whole IR conundrum is strange. For me, IR was unusable in beginning, in time which people remember oppositely, and it's very smooth right now, and my scenes (while lacking ForestPack, disclaimer) are often gigantic in terms of unique poly and even more instances.
Right now I have 2 billion poly scene with CoronaScatter, and it's very smooth, of course, not too helpful since it clears slowly due to having millions of SSS carpet strands in small interior, but still smooth.

OFC I don't want to start a Juraj-quotes-fight, but just showing that the whole IR issue is relative, and possibly scene and system dependent.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-11, 17:53:44
Yes, I remember that video.
In my opinion this video is more impressive in regards to IR:


I really don't understand what was the need to change it to subsampling.
I don't expect you to answer this since you can choose to do anything with your software.
It's just a shame that something that was so good was changed.

I love Corona and the work that you do is just amazing. So please don't get my criticism and negative, but constructive.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-14, 09:46:31
I really don't understand what was the need to change it to subsampling.
I don't expect you to answer this since you can choose to do anything with your software.
It's just a shame that something that was so good was changed.

I love Corona and the work that you do is just amazing. So please don't get my criticism and negative, but constructive.

Thanks.

Of course, we were counting on feedback exactly like this. It will definitely help us make Corona better!
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-14, 11:49:50
maru, i just want to let you know, that not everyone shares lupaz's opinion about IR subsampling. Here's two short videos, that shows how subsampling is extremely useful not only in complex scenes, but in very simple ones as well. Without subsampling, IR is almost completely useless. Please consider this, before making any changes to defaults.


Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-14, 15:18:17
maru, i just want to let you know, that not everyone shares lupaz's opinion about IR subsampling. Here's two short videos, that shows how subsampling is extremely useful not only in complex scenes, but in very simple ones as well. Without subsampling, IR is almost completely useless. Please consider this, before making any changes to defaults.

Could you try doing that with corona 1.5?
I think the point here isn’t really subsampling vs no subsampling, but subsampling vs blending
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-14, 16:27:35
You've been actively advocating against subsampling, so i wanted to show that at least for some, subsampling is very useful and important. I have no particular interest in "blending", but i might do quick test, if those scenes will open in such old version of Corona.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: PROH on 2019-10-14, 17:20:56
Just wanted to say, that lupaz isn't the only one disliking the "new" subsampling behaviour. I'm with him on that, and liked the "blending" a lot better :)

Regards
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2019-10-14, 18:07:37
So it looks like having subsampling and blending as choices sounds like a reasonable solution. ;)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-14, 19:22:05
So it looks like having subsampling and blending as choices sounds like a reasonable solution. ;)

That would be great. Thanks Maru.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: PROH on 2019-10-14, 19:28:56
+ 1 for that :)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-14, 19:49:56
So here it is, simple scene in Corona 1.5.2 As you can see, with clear VFB ticked on, it behaves the same as Corona 5 without subsampling, i.e. unusable. With clear VFB turned off, things becomes much better, but still nowhere near interactivity that is given by subsampling. And that's the simplest scene you can think of. I couldn't test the complex scene, as it crashes on trying to load, but i can imagine that things would be even worse there. I agree that IR with blending feels much nicer than without it, but the real deal is subsampling. If someone doesn't like it, then that's up to them, but there's absolutely no reason to remove such useful option or to make it OFF by default.

Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Ondra on 2019-10-14, 19:57:21
Don't worry, we won't remove subsampling. We might introduce back the pixel blending, which could get automatically activated when subsampling is set to 0 (i.e. disabled). It is super-easy change AFAIK.

<rant>What really sucks though is that we are hearing complaints for 1 or 2 years about slow IR, and just now we learn that some users just disabled subsampling (i.e. they changed settings that makes IR fast, which you are not supposed to touch and broke Corona). And apparently everyone forgot to mention this tiny detail, and instead assumed Corona IR now just sucks. If you buy new car with 6 speed transmission, do you also use only speeds 1-5, and then complain online that your new car highway mileage sucks for no apparent reason?</rant>
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-14, 20:06:26
Thank you Ondra! Maybe at last all sides will be happy :]
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-14, 20:41:51
<rant>What really sucks though is that we are hearing complaints for 1 or 2 years about slow IR, and just now we learn that some users just disabled subsampling (i.e. they changed settings that makes IR fast, which you are not supposed to touch and broke Corona). And apparently everyone forgot to mention this tiny detail, and instead assumed Corona IR now just sucks. If you buy new car with 6 speed transmission, do you also use only speeds 1-5, and then complain online that your new car highway mileage sucks for no apparent reason?</rant>

It'd be ok if the 6th transmition brought speed associated with it.

I'd say a better analogy would be that I got a BMW that I feel is comfortable. The next model they change the seats by adding a huge head rest. So I take it off in order to be able to use the car properly but the seat still feels uncomfortable to me comparing it to the previous model.
As a BMW owner I would be like: hey, for the next model give me my seat back.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: PROH on 2019-10-14, 20:59:47
1) I always turn "Clear VFB" off for IR
2) That "some users just disable subsampling" has been discussed several times and places on this forum, so that shouldn't surprise anybody.
3) I did use "speed 6" but I didn't find it useful for my driving ;)

Best regards
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-15, 11:02:54
...
Hi.
Did you guys receive the scene? I was wondering if you got the same outcome.

Hello lupaz, yes we received it, thank you very much. We are currently investigating it but we are unable to reproduce the slowdown in Corona 4. My colleague even stated that: "(for me) it was the other way around - when I tried IR on the included scene with Corona 1.5 it was very laggy and sometimes it didn't even show anything in the VFB. When I tried the same scene, but with Corona 4 everything worked well and smoothly."

Please what hardware do you use? Do you have some plug-ins installed? We want to test it with the same plug-ins installed to try to find out, if they could cause this slowdown.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: selene on 2019-10-15, 12:47:58
...
I uploaded the scene in question. Initial parsing time was around 30 seconds, seems it is due to the Rhino geometry, but switching between viewports IR was ok. Every now and again it slows down a little though. Still, hitting render instead of IR parsing was 4-5 seconds.

Hello steyin, please may I also ask you if you have some plug-ins installed? And what version of Microsoft Windows and what hardware do you use?
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-15, 15:15:46
...
Hi.
Did you guys receive the scene? I was wondering if you got the same outcome.

Hello lupaz, yes we received it, thank you very much. We are currently investigating it but we are unable to reproduce the slowdown in Corona 4. My colleague even stated that: "(for me) it was the other way around - when I tried IR on the included scene with Corona 1.5 it was very laggy and sometimes it didn't even show anything in the VFB. When I tried the same scene, but with Corona 4 everything worked well and smoothly."



Please what hardware do you use? Do you have some plug-ins installed? We want to test it with the same plug-ins installed to try to find out, if they could cause this slowdown.

Hi Selene,

3Ds max 2016, Win 10.
Ryzen
Plugins: Too many to even know. But some of them are Itoo Railclone and forest pack.

Hardware as from Sys info:

OS Name   Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
Version   10.0.18362 Build 18362
Other OS Description    Not Available
OS Manufacturer   Microsoft Corporation
System Name   RYZEN-1800X-TAI
System Manufacturer   To Be Filled By O.E.M.
System Model   To Be Filled By O.E.M.
System Type   x64-based PC
System SKU   To Be Filled By O.E.M.
Processor   AMD Ryzen 7 1800X Eight-Core Processor, 3600 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date   American Megatrends Inc. P2.40, 4/10/2017
SMBIOS Version   3.0
Embedded Controller Version   255.255
BIOS Mode   Legacy
BaseBoard Manufacturer   ASRock
BaseBoard Product   AB350 Pro4
BaseBoard Version   
Platform Role   Desktop
Secure Boot State   Unsupported
PCR7 Configuration   Binding Not Possible
Windows Directory   C:\WINDOWS
System Directory   C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device   \Device\HarddiskVolume5
Locale   United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer   Version = "10.0.18362.387"
User Name   RYZEN-1800X-TAI\mrpep
Time Zone   Eastern Daylight Time
Installed Physical Memory (RAM)   32.0 GB
Total Physical Memory   32.0 GB
Available Physical Memory   23.1 GB
Total Virtual Memory   51.0 GB
Available Virtual Memory   37.2 GB
Page File Space   19.0 GB
Page File   C:\pagefile.sys
Kernel DMA Protection   Off
Virtualization-based security   Not enabled
Device Encryption Support   Reasons for failed automatic device encryption: TPM is not usable, PCR7 binding is not supported, Hardware Security Test Interface failed and device is not Modern Standby, Un-allowed DMA capable bus/device(s) detected, TPM is not usable
Hyper-V - VM Monitor Mode Extensions   Yes
Hyper-V - Second Level Address Translation Extensions   Yes
Hyper-V - Virtualization Enabled in Firmware   No
Hyper-V - Data Execution Protection   Yes
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-15, 15:57:02
NEWS:
I just updated my nvidia drivers to be able to use Corona 5 and I think IR works faster.
Is that possible?
I'm not sure if the difference is bc of the new drivers or Corona 5 itself.

I thought it was worth mentioning it.

EDIT: I'm not using denoising for IR

Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Ryuu on 2019-10-15, 17:30:43
NEWS:
I just updated my nvidia drivers to be able to use Corona 5 and I think IR works faster.
Is that possible?
I'm not sure if the difference is bc of the new drivers or Corona 5 itself.

I thought it was worth mentioning it.

EDIT: I'm not using denoising for IR

Great this helped you! Did you update your drivers and switched to Corona 5 at the same time? Just out of curiosity, were some other things that should be smooth/interactive also less interactive before and now they're OK (e.g. video playback)?
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-15, 18:04:43
Great this helped you! Did you update your drivers and switched to Corona 5 at the same time?


Yes and no. I updated corona first. Used it a bit yesterday and today I updated the drivers.
BTW, the difference is not huge of course.

Just out of curiosity, were some other things that should be smooth/interactive also less interactive before and now they're OK (e.g. video playback)?

Not really. I can't say I'm noticing a difference on anything else.




Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: steyin on 2019-10-15, 19:04:08
Hello steyin, please may I also ask you if you have some plug-ins installed? And what version of Microsoft Windows and what hardware do you use?
Running Windows 7 Pro, Xeon E5-2630, 40 GB RAM, NVidia Quadro K2200
As for plugins:**EDIT**
BTW, I replaced the previous Rhino geometry that was exported as OBJ with it exported as DWG, which cut the MAX file size down in half and now parsing takes 4 seconds.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: rowmanns on 2019-10-16, 16:59:18
NEWS:
I just updated my nvidia drivers to be able to use Corona 5 and I think IR works faster.
Is that possible?
I'm not sure if the difference is bc of the new drivers or Corona 5 itself.

I thought it was worth mentioning it.

EDIT: I'm not using denoising for IR

Hi Lupaz,

I have been testing your scene which you sent through to us. I have not been able to reproduce the slowdowns which were shown in the video you posted so I have a few questions.

1) Are you using the latest versions of ForestPack and RailClone? If not can you try to update to them and see if the issue remains.

2) I saw in the video that you are using a remote desktop client to log into your machine, does this still happen when you are not remotely logged into the machine?

3) Which version of windows are you using and is it fully up to date?

Thanks,

Rowan
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-16, 18:40:59
Hi Rowan,

Do you think we can do this via email?
Where should I send the info to?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-16, 20:58:59
I have been testing your scene which you sent through to us. I have not been able to reproduce the slowdowns which were shown in the video you posted

Rowan,

Are you saying that when you remove subsampling you don't have the delay that I have on the same scene?
What computer are you using?
Are you doing a comparison with Corona 1.5? Or just testing Corona 4/5?
Could you send a video capture to show me how it's supposed to be working without the slowdown?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: rowmanns on 2019-10-17, 10:21:21
Hi Rowan,

Do you think we can do this via email?
Where should I send the info to?
Thanks.

Hi,

Feel free to send me a PM with the info.

Rowan
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: rowmanns on 2019-10-17, 12:45:49
I have been testing your scene which you sent through to us. I have not been able to reproduce the slowdowns which were shown in the video you posted

Rowan,

Are you saying that when you remove subsampling you don't have the delay that I have on the same scene?
What computer are you using?
Are you doing a comparison with Corona 1.5? Or just testing Corona 4/5?
Could you send a video capture to show me how it's supposed to be working without the slowdown?

Thanks.

Hi,

I did do a comparison vs 1.5 and 1.7.4 against V5RC1.
For me v1.5 was nearly unuseable and 1.7.4 was slower when compared to v5RC1.

I have attached a link to the screen recording of my test with V5RC1. I disable the subsampling at around 30 seconds. It can be seen that it becomes less smooth and there is more of a delay when subsampling is disabled. However not to the extent shown in your recording.


Thanks,

Rowan
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-10-17, 16:23:50
Thanks.

To be honest I don't see much difference between your video and mine once you disabled subsampling, other than probably you're using a faster computer.


I updated Forest and railclone and there's no difference.
Windows is up to date.
Using Max without AnyDesk is the same.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: romullus on 2019-10-17, 16:34:24
Is there any reason you don't use "force path tracing"?
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: Peter Tristann on 2019-11-23, 09:05:58
What is the keyboard shortcut in Corona 4 and 5 to region render? In Corona 2-3 it was Shift in VFB. THIS was a very good shortcut and since the Corona 4 version it has been turned off :(. As for sub-sampling, it is very useful for scenes from FP, where even with a larger lawn the amount of primitives instances often exceeds 2-3 billion and Corona needs a moment to reduce it but in Corona 3 and 4 it works great and fast.

Those who are disturbed by large squares / pixels when moving objects or camera, I recommend increasing GI vs. AA balance at 32-64, (better to see the difference in scenes without FP), then it should look nicer for everyone :) to reduce Light Samples Multiplier to 1, and then they work IR even faster, I also recommend setting Secondary Solver to None, and Max ray depth at 5-10 which additionally smooth work in IR, and the quality will be noticeably worse, slightly shaded places will be darker slightly. But for quick previews and quick work with the stage, these settings are sufficient and increase the comfort of work. When working with FP, it's good for even faster GI vs. Set AA balance to 2 and Light Samples Multiplier to 7. I recommend trying it because the difference is significant.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2019-12-04, 16:48:27
Not sure if this matters to you, but I'm starting to use IR within the viewport and it's way faster than with the VFB. You just don't have that initial wait and of course you can render smaller. There may be another reason too, so that's why I'm mentioning it.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: cgbeast on 2020-03-02, 21:20:43
I run into the following issue.  Sometimes when IR is active and 3ds Max does an autosave, everything gets looked up.  I'm forced to end task. If work has not been saved up to this point, all is lost unless there was a successful autoback saved. Pretty frustrating.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2020-04-15, 17:08:58
Don't worry, we won't remove subsampling. We might introduce back the pixel blending, which could get automatically activated when subsampling is set to 0 (i.e. disabled). It is super-easy change AFAIK.

Any chance we'll see the pixel blending in the next version?
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2020-04-16, 14:48:28
Don't worry, we won't remove subsampling. We might introduce back the pixel blending, which could get automatically activated when subsampling is set to 0 (i.e. disabled). It is super-easy change AFAIK.

Any chance we'll see the pixel blending in the next version?

It's too early to tell.

(Internal ID=436890794)
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: maru on 2020-04-20, 09:44:53
Update: it's too early to tell, but we would really like to have this feature back in V6.
Title: Re: Looking for a cause of Interactive Rendering slowdown (+Poll)
Post by: lupaz on 2020-04-20, 15:49:59
Update: it's too early to tell, but we would really like to have this feature back in V6.

That would be great.
Thanks Maru.