Author Topic: Discussions about people's expectations, Corona developement, life and other things  (Read 7360 times)

2021-06-09, 15:28:30
Reply #75

TomG

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Oh there was an earlier point that almost got lost here - about Chaos' recent rebranding and new ecosystem approach and where was Corona in that. Can't tell you much, because then.... I would be fired ;) But just so you know, there will be more information about this kind of topic very soon. Umm so this time it is "look forward to stuff in the future" as my post after all!

2021-06-09, 15:29:44
Reply #76

lupaz

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(hmm almost 3,778 posts from me - I can guarantee they are not just "look forward to cool stuff" ;) )
I didn't imply that you don't do anything else Tom. Come on.

2021-06-09, 15:32:29
Reply #77

bluebox

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I think some of you are acctually taking things a bit too far now. Are you able to compare the size of the team with other developers like Chaos Vray or other engines ? Doubt it.

My point of view was to show my aproach to roadmap and I still stand with my beliefs and do not agree with Corona aproach.

Ok, totaly understandable things can get postponed as this is the case now. But being postponed is one thing, and developing a feature for almost two years (tone mapping) or slicer (years now right ?) is not OK.

If the aproach with road map being tentative is to stay I believe it should be accessible to SAAS subscribers only and there should be a BOX option for other people who buy depending on current stable state - no complains then, no disapointment.

BOX option is also more motivating for the company to acctually release something new and on time. Puts it out of the comfort zone of constant steady income. SAAS is the cancer of modern software in my opinion.

And the rates are irrelevant from my POV to be clear. I acctually think that SAAS rate is acctually pretty low. Development pace and reliability is of concern.

Since many of us think like me as I see it, many others agrees with how things are right now and are totaly fine with slow development or not delivering roadmap features for more many releases then the only solution as I see it is either you stay and pay or don't and move on.

2021-06-09, 15:33:37
Reply #78

lupaz

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The moment a client wanted to control how I run my business would be the moment I would show him the door, I guess it's same for everyone here.
Nobody is trying to control anything here. I have legitimate questions. I invested in this software for years and need to make a decision whether I move forward with it or not. I need info to make an informed decision.


2021-06-09, 15:34:27
Reply #79

dj_buckley

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Oh there was an earlier point that almost got lost here - about Chaos' recent rebranding and new ecosystem approach and where was Corona in that. Can't tell you much, because then.... I would be fired ;) But just so you know, there will be more information about this kind of topic very soon. Umm so this time it is "look forward to stuff in the future" as my post after all!

Sounds interesting and as I thought, I knew you wouldn't be able to say too much, I wasn't necessarily highlighting the merger as a negative thing, but I appreciate how these business deals work, and it's never easy to speak publicly about those dealings

2021-06-09, 15:59:32
Reply #80

lupaz

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Guys, please leave it to the Corona team and management how to handle positions and all the internal stuff. The moment a client wanted to control how I run my business would be the moment I would show him the door, I guess it's same for everyone here. Give them the benefit of the doubt and please stop assuming that what they do is a simple linear job that magically produces features after every 8 hour shift.

I'm sorry, but I need to say this: If your client pays the retainer fee and then you don't deliver as expected, you'll find yourself with tons of questions from your client. Showing him the door wouldn't be good business. But I don't want to tell you how to run yours.

2021-06-09, 16:04:44
Reply #81

Ondra

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I think you really make it hard for yourself with that road map in my opinion corona team. Living up to the hype of everything that is on there is great but when you fail short of what is promised it brings much disappointment and frustration. I think seeing something that was really anticipated on the road map being pushed back really put everyone into a frenzy mode. You might want to think about making it private, someone even updated the new sky model aerial perspective as done and it was not. Making a few highlights every couple of months to show us what's being worked on might be the better option.
The roadmap still contains useful info and we actually implement most stuff that is pending in the current version. I dont want to remove this info just because some people cannot read the big warning at the top.

And another thought as to why many people seem to be upset. A lot of the "new" features we are getting are already in v-ray and people didn't expect it will take such a long time to implement them in corona.
For me the new PBR material is great but the material converter is a total mess right now and the material library needs updating too.
Me personally I am starting to think it will take up to what three years to get stuff that is already into v-ray into corona and the latter just got cosmos so that seems like a really long shot to even think about.
That's why I am also thinking about trying out V-ray again.
Hopefully you prove us all wrong and manage to surprise us all.

VRay has 10 years head start on features. Corona vs. VRay is a matter of personal preference at this point, so feel free to try VRay if you need more features and are OK with the increased complexity.
Cosmos is coming by the end of the year BTW - stay tuned for next version announcement.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-09, 16:21:54
Reply #82

Ondra

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But I don't want to tell you how to run yours.
Then why do you keep telling us how to run our business?

Showing him the door wouldn't be good business.
If client demanded to see how many artists worked on renders and what is their seniority, I would show him the doors SO FAST.

In fact, our business would be better if you started using another renderer, and I once again encourage you to do it. It is clear you have your ideas and we cannot convince you otherwise. This is nothing new, we already had this wave of "Corona development is now slow" before commercial release and another right after commercial release. Some people don't like the direction we are going and leave for another renderer, but we get 5 more new users for every leaver. We just cannot satisfy everybody at the same time.

These discussions are going in circles and are getting ridiculous. I won't be discussing ridiculous claims such as that PBR material is not a big feature. I already deleted few random posts that were disrespectful towards us or other users, and I will continue doing that as I see fit. They only annoy us and other users, and come from a very small minority of users.
Rendering is magic.
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2021-06-09, 16:27:10
Reply #83

pokoy

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Guys, please leave it to the Corona team and management how to handle positions and all the internal stuff. The moment a client wanted to control how I run my business would be the moment I would show him the door, I guess it's same for everyone here. Give them the benefit of the doubt and please stop assuming that what they do is a simple linear job that magically produces features after every 8 hour shift.

I'm sorry, but I need to say this: If your client pays the retainer fee and then you don't deliver as expected, you'll find yourself with tons of questions from your client. Showing him the door wouldn't be good business. But I don't want to tell you how to run yours.

Guess what, I did actually underperform or not deliver on time in some instances. You seem to omit that one possible outcome that goes like this: talk it over, understand each other's position and realities, shake hands, move on and continue to work together.

2021-06-09, 16:42:10
Reply #84

Ondra

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To once again address few topics raised here:

Corona development independence: Corona is part of Chaos and directed by me. We entered into the contract with general understanding of common goals, and as a result I never since received any significant pushback to my vision. So the only thing that changed is that you need to trust Chaos, not Render Legion.

Corona roadmap reliability: the roadmap is not set in stone, because development is tricky business. Please read this disclaimer: https://trello.com/c/j5AVQ4oX/197-important-road-map-information-please-read before relying on anything on the road map.

Development speed in general: We are still implementing features as fast as possible. with constraints of general lack of renderer developers, challenges of working in a large codebase, etc. There are no artificial limits e.g. in funding. Unfortunately you need to accept that Corona is now a mature software product and its development will never be as fast as in the very beginning. This is how all software works. Easy to add features were already added, we have large userbase that encounters more bugs and produces more feature requests than ever before, and we need to maintain the already added code. With more developers we are in fact adding features faster than in the past, they are just spread thinner across the vast number of feature requests.

Picking features to implement: we wrote about this here: https://blog.corona-renderer.com/behind-the-scenes-the-corona-renderer-development-process/

Innovation in v7: we added missing items to the trello roadmap to clarify what is new: https://trello.com/b/EfPE4kPx/corona-tentative-road-map-3ds-max. I still want to add more info on the speedups, because some are huge (50%). Overall v7 is large release centered around PBR and the related infrastructure and shading changes.

Moving tonemapping to v8: We did massive amount of work during development cycle of v7 to make the tone mapping modular (which allows faster, more flexible pipeline, with more tone mapping operators). Unfortunately there were some unforseen problems and we had to move it to future release to avoid bugs or release delay. This does not mean the work is lost - we now have head start for v8, the feature will be released early in the release cycle, and in 1 year there will be no difference between releasing this in v7 or v8. We will soon show video with prototype to give you sneak peek.


Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-09, 16:50:06
Reply #85

lupaz

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Then why do you keep telling us how to run our business?
I'm not. If anything it's wishful thinking.


If client demanded to see how many artists worked on renders and what is their seniority, I would show him the doors SO FAST.
Very different than what happens in corporate america.


In fact, our business would be better if you started using another renderer, and I once again encourage you to do it.

You never encouraged me to do so as far as I know, unless you're talking about Bluebox.


It is clear you have your ideas and we cannot convince you otherwise. This is nothing new, we already had this wave of "Corona development is now slow" before commercial release and another right after commercial release. Some people don't like the direction we are going and leave for another renderer, but we get 5 more new users for every leaver. We just cannot satisfy everybody at the same time.
Got it. I whished I heard this years ago.

I won't be discussing ridiculous claims such as that PBR material is not a big feature.

Just for the record I never said anything like that.

I"m so disappointed. I feel the way I felt 10 years ago with vray.

2021-06-09, 17:11:15
Reply #86

Hardleft121

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I use Corona all day, every day, since 1.7.  I love it, it is incredible.  So fast, and so easy to use, and so greatly priced.  It is a gift from above in my workflow that I am grateful for every day.  Thank you all for your hard work, perseverance and openness.

What is going on here is disgusting.  The Corona team has our experience with their rendering engine at the forefront, and it is easy to see.  Questioning their decisions and priorities and staffing are misguided emotions to be pouring on these hardworking, earnest people.

Long live the memory of Jaroslav.  Thank you for moving the product forward through so many challenges in the last many many months.  Thank you for everything that everyone on the team does.  As a single artist in Dallas, Texas, I love you guys... and your incredible product.  Thank you.

Greg

2021-06-09, 17:13:14
Reply #87

Ondra

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Then why do you keep telling us how to run our business?
I'm not. If anything it's wishful thinking.

Well, there is bunch of stuff like this:
A waste of talent IMO.
I once went from being a creative to being management and was a huge mistake, and very hard to go back while in the same company.
I really hope you can convince yourself to go back to programming full time.

If client demanded to see how many artists worked on renders and what is their seniority, I would show him the doors SO FAST.
Very different than what happens in corporate america.
Indeed, but if you prefer corporate PR, I can recommend some excellent renderers developed in corporate america :D



The last part was not specifically meant for you, but in general. There will be always releases that add features  that you like and releases that target other users. We are developing Corona with tens of thousands of people in mind, and Corona can never go back to "we have 100 users that we target and adding features is easy because it does not need to be compatible with any existing component". If you are not OK with this deal, it is best to move on. We aim to satisfy most people, but cannot please everybody


Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2021-06-09, 17:24:31
Reply #88

lupaz

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Well, there is bunch of stuff like this:
A waste of talent IMO.
I once went from being a creative to being management and was a huge mistake, and very hard to go back while in the same company.
I really hope you can convince yourself to go back to programming full time.

This was meant to be a compliment to you. Sorry you didn't take it that way.

2021-06-10, 10:38:07
Reply #89

Ondra

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I removed the last iteration of the endless and tiring discussion. Bluebox clearly does not want to listen to anybody with different opinion and keeps being shitty and condescending to them, so I had to ban him.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)