Tonemapping - Plz Halp

[hldemi]

I notice you didn't enable LUT or modify Hightlight compression. Any reason why? Fstorm applies a LUT by default, so this is not a oranges to oranges compression, just wondering if you have a reason?

What I tried to do was to remove from the Fstorm frame buffer all post production. For this test I didn't care about Fstorm defaults. If we remove post production stuff and end up with the same rendering as corona, that would mean that you can get an Fstorm render with little effort, with Corona's controls or other software.

What I want to do next is add DOF to the test and see what happens.

There was similar thread on Fstorm FB group and I remember Johannes Lindqvist saying that They tested same scene with Fstorm and Corona and when they turned off Fstorm tonemapping the render was practically identical. Also Andrey said Fstorm uses Canon 300D LUT right now as default. SO to try that LUT in corona and compare images would be interesting.

[lolec]

Regarding your recent comparison, yes there is a difference between the two (perhaps not 50%) but I can clearly see the black crush in the shadows issue I have mentioned before in trying to achieve a contrasty punchy image whilst retaining not overly clamped highlights (look at how much detail is lost in the lower right shadow on the floor in the Corona version, along with the shadow at the base of the exterior sphere, the soft shadow gradient on the left hand interior wall, and the tendancy for Corona to go to pure black in corner gaps - the dynamic range of the shadows have been butchered). Now scale this issue up to images that mostly deal with subtle tonal variations (i.e moody or brightly lit product shots).

As a side note outside of tonemapping, you can also see the filtering issue I mentioned previously in the Corona example. Look at how much detail has been smoothed out of the concrete walls and wood material in the Corona version.

Brilliant eye & observation, Sir!

Exactly those things ( black shadow areas, wrong dark-light transitions, etc.) make you literally feel like somehow not being abele to look at an image and get the information your eye looks for.
A bit like listening to a music recording that has distorted frequencies.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the fairest way to do a blind test is when the participants are actually blind.

I swapped the Corona and Fstorm renders, I removed the watermark from the Fstorm Render and added a Fstorm Watermark to the Corona render one.

I don't know what that means, and I don't mean to say that there is no difference or that Fstorm doesn't have some areas where it is superior. But at least in this particular test, it seems like Corona actually exhibits the great properties you are looking for, as long as it has a Fstorm watermark on top of it.

Hope this information can help us all reach further conclusions :) Please don't punch me !

[Designerman77]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the fairest way to do a blind test is when the participants are actually blind.

I swapped the Corona and Fstorm renders, I removed the watermark from the Fstorm Render and added a Fstorm Watermark to the Corona render one.

I don't know what that means, and I don't mean to say that there is no difference or that Fstorm doesn't have some areas where it is superior. But at least in this particular test, it seems like Corona actually exhibits the great properties you are looking for, as long as it has a Fstorm watermark on top of it.

Hope this information can help us all reach further conclusions :) Please don't punch me !
[/quote]



So you basically say that you tricked everyone here by swapping the FS-watermark and put it on Corona render?
Okay... however, those characteristics others mentioned ( too black shadows, etc. etc. ) actually do exist in Corona when you touch the contrast and I observe it day by day.

I don't know what you did with the FStorm render... but from the FStorm renders I have seen up to date, I cannot remember those burnt colors, black shadows with no detail, etc.
This is totally non typical for F-storm.

So?

Sorry, but this all is surely not a "mass hallucination". :)

[lolec]

If it wasn't a typical Fstorm render, wouldn't you say you would have been able to notice?

Not only you didn't immediately notice but you even complained about the same things you are complaining about corona. And not only you, so maybe there is something else to it than objective observation.

Not sure why you label it as "tricked"  we are talking about comparisons and every serious study requires the elimination of variables.

I'm sorry you didn't like the results of the experiment, I bet that if the result was different and you actually noticed, you would have felt really good about that fact, and confirm your previous notions. So I think just because you didn't get the expected result, there is no reason to say "I did something to the Fstorm version".

[cjwidd]

I created this thread with a much more pedestrian goal in mind, basically to ask how others use the tonemapping features. Think of the following as a series of T/F statements, For example:

In general...

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

[cjwidd]

There was similar thread on Fstorm FB group and I remember Johannes Lindqvist saying that They tested same scene with Fstorm and Corona and when they turned off Fstorm tonemapping the render was practically identical. Also Andrey said Fstorm uses Canon 300D LUT right now as default. SO to try that LUT in corona and compare images would be interesting.

I don't really appreciate the F-storm vs. Corona Renderer discussion happening on this thread, but this post^ is a really interesting contribution. It sounds like Johannes (unsurprisingly) already did controlled experiments - pretty compelling.

[Designerman77]

If it wasn't a typical Fstorm render, wouldn't you say you would have been able to notice?

Not only you didn't immediately notice but you even complained about the same things you are complaining about corona. And not only you, so maybe there is something else to it than objective observation.

Not sure why you label it as "tricked"  we are talking about comparisons and every serious study requires the elimination of variables.

I'm sorry you didn't like the results of the experiment, I bet that if the result was different and you actually noticed, you would have felt really good about that fact, and confirm your previous notions. So I think just because you didn't get the expected result, there is no reason to say "I did something to the Fstorm version".

Why should I be "disappointed"???? I am very glad about it, actually, since I work 100% in Corona and very much appreciate this program.
But: it still remains a fact that - despite that funny inversion of pics - tons of people see what all of us discussed about.
I don´t think that it is because FStorm users are all geniuses and Corona users just dilettantes.

The question remains: do we (the users) want Corona to evolve as a render engine, or rather relativize and discuss those things away which could be improved?

I claim that a few test do not have the same meaningfulness like hundreds and thousands of observations, don't you think?

[Designerman77]

I don't really appreciate the F-storm vs. Corona Renderer discussion happening on this thread, but this post^ is a really interesting contribution. It sounds like Johannes (unsurprisingly) already did controlled experiments - pretty compelling.
[/quote]


I do not see it as "versus"... but rather "what can we learn from each other and improve the status quo".

[romullus]

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

False to all.

[jms.lwly]

In general...

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

This list is exactly the back and forth that I go through during almost every new project - I wish I could decide on a definitive personal favourite - but I can’t. Would love to know everyone else’s approach to all of the above.

[lupaz]

From the default, I only change exposure trying to keep it as close to zero as possible (I  heard that corona has it easier if that happens), I increase highlight compression to about 2 and contrast to about 3.
I usually don't use LUTs because I do the color adjustments in camera raw in photoshop.

I do use bloom just to soften the aliasing.

Vignetting for some exteriors.

I created this thread with a much more pedestrian goal in mind, basically to ask how others use the tonemapping features. Think of the following as a series of T/F statements, For example:

In general...

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

[bluebox]

In general...

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

This list is exactly the back and forth that I go through during almost every new project - I wish I could decide on a definitive personal favourite - but I can’t. Would love to know everyone else’s approach to all of the above.

Because you just can't decide.
I mean you can find the tone mapping settings you like and stick to them. But then if you find yourself in a situation that you really need more contrast and crank it up - all of a sudden your shaders will mostly break apart, saturation will go crazy and all this nonsense.

Just tried Fstorm again - have the demo installed but its pain in the @ss on my gtx1060 - contrast does not affect saturation - awesome, reducing burn value does not make the image instantly dull, in fact it does not make the image dull at all - you can even go with negative value - again awesome.

Try for yourself.

Can't really wait what Nvidia shows this year :)

[Designerman77]

From the default, I only change exposure trying to keep it as close to zero as possible (I  heard that corona has it easier if that happens), I increase highlight compression to about 2 and contrast to about 3.
I usually don't use LUTs because I do the color adjustments in camera raw in photoshop.

I do use bloom just to soften the aliasing.

Vignetting for some exteriors.



HC generally kills your light dynamics. I try to keep it to 1 and rather use the Filmic Highlights.

One of the Corona devs gave the hint to use the Amland LUTs and leave the Cam settings as basic as possible.
I tried this and it became my new standard.
Works quite nicely.

HC 1
Contrast max. 3
Filmic Highlights 0 - 9
Filmic shadow... better keep it on 0 / max 0.2

[cjwidd]

@romullus In general though, like 90% of cases - obviously the terms 'never' and 'always' are sort of tautological

[lolec]

I created this thread with a much more pedestrian goal in mind, basically to ask how others use the tonemapping features. Think of the following as a series of T/F statements, For example:

In general...

• I never use contrast < 1.0
• I never use highlight compression <1.0
• I never use highlight compression <3.0
• I never use contrast > 1.0 in combination with a LUT
• I never use filmic shadows in combination with a LUT
• I never use LUTS
• I never use LUTS at an opacity of 1.0
• I never use the built-in vignetting
• I never use color tint
• I never use filmic highlights
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0
• I always use filmic highlights = 1.0 when using a LUT
• I always use Dubcat ACES emulation
• I always increase / decrease saturation a little bit
• I never adjust saturation
• I never use green-magenta tint
• I always use sharpening / blurring in the VFB - here are the settings
• I always keep exposure = 0 and modify light sources instead of EV spinner
• I never use bloom / glare

This is the most interesting thing for me. As this settings are completely different to what I use normally and I actually have NO IDEA on what are the best ones to use.

I edited my scene to use only Corona materials and no copyrighted assets. It means it looks boring but it serves the purpose.

I will post the scene here for anyone to download and try their preferred settings and normal workflow over it.  Please post an image resulting from your workflow as well as your preferred settings. I'll start! This might be very interesting!!

Ok, so this is corona Defaults (only changed EV otherwise its burned up)


I never use that as a starting point though. My default settings are this:


I rarely leave it at that though. So My workflow always involves some amount of tweaking. For this particular image, a quick tweaking ends up like this:


Not saying that is what I would consider a finished image. But as a quick summary of my normal workflow, and not changing anything about the scene, I would say that's close.

So, If you want to try:

Download the scene from here (created in a student version so none of it can be used for commercial purposes, only learning):https://share.getcloudapp.com/yAu20wZX
Do not change anything about the scene! Leave light and materials the same, only tweak tonemapping.
Use your usual settings and post the results. It doesn't have to be all inside corona, if you usually take the image outside of corona to finish retouching, go ahead! do that and let's see what a difference workflow makes.