Author Topic: The albedo question.  (Read 9197 times)

2014-03-16, 00:05:37

borisquezadaa

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I guys, i have spent few days reading the forum but i still can't answer a simple question.

The corona wiki states that a cause of poor performance in rendering is caused by this:

"Too high walls albedo in an interior scene. Albedo is the percentage of energy a material reflects, and in Corona is the sum of diffuse, reflective, refractive, and translucent components. In reality almost no materials have near-white albedos, and using white albedo (for example 255-white diffuse color) in rendering gives very unrealistic and slow results, and cannot be correctly rendered with an unbiased renderer. Try keeping albedos of all your main scene objects under RGB 180, and get whiter walls by brightening light sources.

There is a table around that list common albedos for tipical materials.

It says that snow (for example) has an albedo of between 40 to 85 (depending on snow).

The question itching in the back of my head is:

Where is the albedo in the material  editor?...

The diffuse section includes a LEVEL (0-1), an rgb color and the posibility of load a texture, same for reflection and refraction.

If the albedo of a material is 0.4 do i put level to 0.4 in diffuse and leave reflection and refraction at 0 so the sum is that 0.4?
Or is the rgb that sums that way?... what if i put a texture?... and if that color in texture are way beyond "1! like an exr or hdr?...

And what happen if the material is an emitter one?... (by the way can't find the light material in A5, is present only in dailys?).

Hope some one can share wisdom.
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2014-03-16, 00:15:49
Reply #1

Ondra

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albedo is the sum of all components (diffuse, reflect, ...)
Each component is calculated as LEVEL * COLOR (with 255 = albedo 1).

Albedo is defined only for reflective materials. Emission does not count into it.

Texture changes albedo of your material in each point. You can still reason about albedo the same way as before, just use average color of the texture instead of the constant color.
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2014-03-16, 01:12:10
Reply #2

CHRiTTeR

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albedo is the sum of all components (diffuse, reflect, ...)
Each component is calculated as LEVEL * COLOR (with 255 = albedo 1).

Albedo is defined only for reflective materials. Emission does not count into it.

Texture changes albedo of your material in each point. You can still reason about albedo the same way as before, just use average color of the texture instead of the constant color.

Something i've been wondering for quite some time now... is how to reproduce accurate paint materials. Specifically, what to do with the LRV value?
When you look up the color specs of some dulux paint for example they are specified by RGB values (nice!) but then there is also the LRV and i have no clue what to do with it
... I cant seem to find any clear info on this. It has something to do with the amount of visible light that is reflected but yeah, thats not really helpfull info...
There was one guy on a lightwave forum suggesting it was the reflection value, but that looked totally wrong.
I also thought maybe to apply the LRV as an percentage/multiplier to the given RGB value but that didnt look right either...

2014-03-16, 02:13:39
Reply #3

borisquezadaa

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Thanks for the info... is quite a subject i see.

And it seems to me that albedo and LRV are the same thing. Some kind of measure of radiation reflected respect to some radiation received.

Now lets put this stuff to a test.
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2014-03-16, 03:43:16
Reply #4

Juraj

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And it seems to me that albedo and LRV are the same thing.

I would say this is quite correct imho, that's why I think the value of albedo/LRV/any other physical measurement can't be used directly in CGI model in some sort of hocus-focus
bro-science formula.

"Light Reflectance Value (LRV) is the total quantity of visible and useable light reflected by a surface in all directions and at all wavelengths when illuminated by a light source."

Source: http://thelandofcolor.com/lrv-light-reflectance-value-of-paint-colors/


My reasoning is you can't just multiply diffuse value (or averaged tonal value of texture) as the measured number accounted both diffuse and specular property of material, something
that is separated in material model of most renderers, like Corona. Conservatively, LRV value of 40 for example, accounts for both the tonal value in diffuse property and overal averaged reflectance from all angles combined together in one single value, so it can't be stuck for example  in reflective slot alone (which is just 90 degree reflectance of specular property, and more than less should quite often be very high value, might as well leave it white ) irregardless of reflective IOR curve ( or IOR value in simplier model).

40perc. reflectance for metal and plastic while identical once averaged in LRV value have drastically different visual look, as the metal is only specular, while plastic have both specular and diffuse property while also having very different spread due to reflective curve where metal will be evenly reflective overall with close to horizontal reflective curve (with late peak at top) while plastic will have rising curve that will change diffuse into specular as it will reach grazing angle.

[[ well, actually, for some, very regular and highly reflective metals, the LRV value could probably be used directly without reaching wrong result. Since they would have almost completely horizontal reflective curve (or IOR value higher than 20 respectively ), they would reflect light already in very even fashion from all angles, have no diffuse property (super clean), so the LRV value could be then used as 0.4*255, it wouldn't be accurate, be neither look wrong, apart from layered look and simplified BRDF model

In same fashion, it could be used directly for pure-diffuse materials, but there are (almost?I don't know) none in reality, the specular property would skew the measured number
Closest match would be the regular super-matte paint wall-paint, something people now more than often learned to use properly, i.e. white matte wall being sub <200 instead of 255 commonly used almost universally before]]

Imho because of this, they are rarely useful even for eye-balling reasons as most materials are just combination of all.  It's just helpful data for construction/design industry to create visual contrast in materials (often for safety reasons).

The best photorealistic freaks (in good way) can do is follow the reflectance curves under correct wavelength from table list like this :

http://refractiveindex.info/

and observe materials in strictly measured photography at 0 (straight-on) angle and with close to 90degree angle.


Disclaimer : I am presenting my understanding of all this, which I only speculate on but ponder upon quite often and study for quite some time. Might not use correct terms and language,
but it's worth to look behind that, since my job is to make nice pictures, not write scientific papers.

« Last Edit: 2014-03-16, 04:28:07 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2014-03-16, 05:48:56
Reply #5

borisquezadaa

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Great to hear that, i'm gonna try to understand the way Corona material works... to really understand and avoid the always neccesary "cheat".

This article is a little heavy but maybe helps me understand the basics.
http://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/3d-advanced-lessons/things-to-know-about-the-cg-lighting-pipeline/what-is-a-brdf/

If i remember correctly 3ds max design uses some ligthing analysis that where expressed in pretty solid S.I. units (not parrots) but only for MentalRay using some Brute force aproach (unbiased?).

So i have no doubt that tuning a Corona Material we can set that LRV values at least for a solid color... the question is how.

For example 10 boxes and 10 ligths one base plane.

Default Corona White material (180 rgb white).
1.- Change "value" in diffuse (reflection, refraction 0) gives expected results.
2.- Change "color" in difusse (reflection, refraction 0) gives expected results.
3.- Change "value" in reflection (diffuse, refraction 0) gives no ligth on ground.
4.- Change "color" in reflection (diffuse, refraction 0) gives no ligth on ground.

Interesting topic the reflectance you where rigth about that 90° aproach... but here comes the fresnel to save the day.

I really need to understand the way brdf shader work.


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2014-03-16, 05:57:36
Reply #6

CHRiTTeR

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And it seems to me that albedo and LRV are the same thing.

I would say this is quite correct imho, that's why I think the value of albedo/LRV/any other physical measurement can't be used directly in CGI model in some sort of hocus-focus
bro-science formula.

"Light Reflectance Value (LRV) is the total quantity of visible and useable light reflected by a surface in all directions and at all wavelengths when illuminated by a light source."

Source: http://thelandofcolor.com/lrv-light-reflectance-value-of-paint-colors/


My reasoning is you can't just multiply diffuse value (or averaged tonal value of texture) as the measured number accounted both diffuse and specular property of material, something
that is separated in material model of most renderers, like Corona. Conservatively, LRV value of 40 for example, accounts for both the tonal value in diffuse property and overal averaged reflectance from all angles combined together in one single value, so it can't be stuck for example  in reflective slot alone (which is just 90 degree reflectance of specular property, and more than less should quite often be very high value, might as well leave it white ) irregardless of reflective IOR curve ( or IOR value in simplier model).

40perc. reflectance for metal and plastic while identical once averaged in LRV value have drastically different visual look, as the metal is only specular, while plastic have both specular and diffuse property while also having very different spread due to reflective curve where metal will be evenly reflective overall with close to horizontal reflective curve (with late peak at top) while plastic will have rising curve that will change diffuse into specular as it will reach grazing angle.

[[ well, actually, for some, very regular and highly reflective metals, the LRV value could probably be used directly without reaching wrong result. Since they would have almost completely horizontal reflective curve (or IOR value higher than 20 respectively ), they would reflect light already in very even fashion from all angles, have no diffuse property (super clean), so the LRV value could be then used as 0.4*255, it wouldn't be accurate, be neither look wrong, apart from layered look and simplified BRDF model

In same fashion, it could be used directly for pure-diffuse materials, but there are (almost?I don't know) none in reality, the specular property would skew the measured number
Closest match would be the regular super-matte paint wall-paint, something people now more than often learned to use properly, i.e. white matte wall being sub <200 instead of 255 commonly used almost universally before]]

Imho because of this, they are rarely useful even for eye-balling reasons as most materials are just combination of all.  It's just helpful data for construction/design industry to create visual contrast in materials (often for safety reasons).

The best photorealistic freaks (in good way) can do is follow the reflectance curves under correct wavelength from table list like this :

http://refractiveindex.info/

and observe materials in strictly measured photography at 0 (straight-on) angle and with close to 90degree angle.


Disclaimer : I am presenting my understanding of all this, which I only speculate on but ponder upon quite often and study for quite some time. Might not use correct terms and language,
but it's worth to look behind that, since my job is to make nice pictures, not write scientific papers.

Yeah, thats what i thought/feared... still i hoped i was kinda wrong :)

2014-03-16, 19:37:50
Reply #7

funcolors

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Hi everyone.  I'm Lori and I'm the LRV Guru app designer and wrote the article referenced about LRV over at The Land of Color.

The measured proportion of light reflected from a color is the CIE tristimulus value Y or simply CIE Y, also known as LRV.  So, CIE Y = LRV.  LRV is expressed as a percentage and the term most recognized.

I'm sure you all know that you can mathematically convert from color space to color space.  Not sure how your software works, how albedo is qualified, or what options you have with regard to RGB but I'm thinking the info that LRV is CIE Y might be helpful in your efforts.

2014-03-16, 23:50:24
Reply #8

borisquezadaa

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Thanks for the info.

I found this usefull tool online to help with color conversion between color spaces.

http://www.easyrgb.com/index.php?X=CALC
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