Author Topic: Impremta Garden (+ breakdowns )  (Read 46423 times)

2017-09-28, 13:47:28
Reply #60

shortcirkuit

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hey Juraj - may i ask... when i do my interior scenes, i mostly have to really crank down the exposure to -3 or -4 when the sun intensity is at 1.  I often find i have to put the intensity at 0.01 or 0.02 to balance it.  I see that you have the intensity set to 1.0 and your exposure set to over 1.0.  Any reason why you think this is happening?

Keep up the great work mate - huge fan here

2017-10-09, 09:25:04
Reply #61

diorowen

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Hi Juraj,
just wanna ask, when you render for final in 8k,
what's the usual noise level is acceptable for you?

I typically render for under 5% noise level, but the noise is still visible.

Best,
d

2017-10-09, 16:11:35
Reply #62

Juraj

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Sorry guys for late reply, I was 3 weeks in Norway, sleeping in car and just checking FB occasionally on mobile :- )

hey Juraj - may i ask... when i do my interior scenes, i mostly have to really crank down the exposure to -3 or -4 when the sun intensity is at 1.  I often find i have to put the intensity at 0.01 or 0.02 to balance it.  I see that you have the intensity set to 1.0 and your exposure set to over 1.0.  Any reason why you think this is happening?

Keep up the great work mate - huge fan here
Shortcirkuit: Actual EV value is irrelevant, it's scene and light dependent. Default value of Sun&Sky have real photographic intensity, but EV=0 isn't "Sunny F8", but arbitrarily set Corona value where white gets intensity 1.0 with light of intensity 1.0.

What that means in practice is that your default "EV" may be as low as -4 in super bright interior with lot of windows, and it can be 0 or more if the light needs to bounce more. It doesn't affect anything, there is nothing wrong with this value being anywhere.



Hi Juraj,
just wanna ask, when you render for final in 8k,
what's the usual noise level is acceptable for you?

I typically render for under 5% noise level, but the noise is still visible.

Best,
d

It's between 2-4perc. The value fluctuates based on the type of scene because lots of geometric and texture detail can skew the evaluation algorithm. Exteriors are perceptively clean at 3-4 perc. but interiors still feel "dirty" to me at 2perc. and I consider 1.7 +/- to be sweat spot.
It takes endlessly to get there mostly because the current adaptivity disfavors flat smooth (and bright) surfaces, so stuff like walls may be cleaner in comparative terms, but perceptively they are very noisy to human eye, and often with no logic to be noisy in regards to photographic noise in reality (which would never happen in midtones on base ISO). In fact, noisy midtones and especially highlights are what throws off a lot of photorealistic feel away. If they are crystal clear and noise is mostly in textured regions and shadows, you can have really 'burnt' look and it won't feel CGI or unfinished.

So I often wait billion years until it reaches <2perc. and if I feel like it, do a tiny denoise (+/ -0.3) but only if it doesn't feel painterly afterwards.

Crazy stuff: I re-introduce noise in post-production sometimes :- D
« Last Edit: 2017-10-09, 16:28:01 by Juraj_Talcik »
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2017-10-10, 00:29:57
Reply #63

scottofazphx

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Incredible work, Your techniques and images are great. Look forward to future posts, we all learn from experts like yourself. Thank you for the breakdowns and screenshots.

2017-10-10, 05:11:14
Reply #64

SaY

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Juraj,
where do you usually get the inspirational images for your projects, and for this project in particular?
Thanks

2017-10-10, 11:33:53
Reply #65

Juraj

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Juraj,
where do you usually get the inspirational images for your projects, and for this project in particular?
Thanks

I don't use references directly like this most of the time, and I didn't here. I want to write an article about 'Finding your look' where I would like to discuss this, it could be educational amids the current time where people ask for exact HDRi in hope they can replicate the same look in different project, it just doesn't work like that and it's very frustrating mindset. I was there.

But, I look through immense amount of inspirational images all the time regularly, it builds 'mental library' and elevates your sense for detail, your mind will subconsciously start remembering what all light can do. The usual Archdaily, Dwell, Dezeen, Elle Decor (Scandi, maybe UK or Italian version too, but definitely not the US and German), Facebook/Pinterest/Google, lot's of "Coffee Table" books in our home&office. Lastly, I have my eyes open and I travel constantly to see new cities and lands, and once I am there, I make lot of conscious effort to remember things in both memory and photos :- )
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2017-10-10, 14:19:16
Reply #66

-Ben-Battler-

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Hi Juraj

I don't use references directly like this most of the time, and I didn't here. I want to write an article about 'Finding your look' where I would like to discuss this, it could be educational amids the current time where people ask for exact HDRi in hope they can replicate the same look in different project, it just doesn't work like that and it's very frustrating mindset. I was there.

I'm always in awe when looking at your imagery. I love the naturalistic look you get and would be very interested in such an article.

Another thing that I would love to get some advice out of you: often when I'm creating interior renders the exterior visible through the windows is fairly blown out. This of course depends on the size of the windows and thus the amount of light that is able to brighten up the interior.
I'm always trying to get those highlights back by using a combination of HC and Filmic but I'm never getting as far as I could go in Lightroom for example. Is this just a Corona limitation to keep the look realistic and not drifting too far towards the rightfully mocked "HDR-Look" or is Lightroom using a different algorithm for lifting shadows and/or lowering highlights? Or should I be able to achive this by simply adjusting the curves in the VFB?

Why I'm keeping myself busy with this is because we've got a lot of clients who want so see the exterior while retaining the interior reasonably bright. And when I observe this issue with my own eyes then I have to admit that I clearly see the features of the house next door while sitting inside a room. Obviously the human eye has a crazy dynamic range which is barely matched by DSLRs.

Can you drop your 2 cents on this topic?
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2017-10-10, 14:36:33
Reply #67

Juraj

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Sure.

Human eyes have both rather wide dynamic range capacity and adaptivness. But here is the thing you might not be noticing in regards to the latter. When you stand in interior room and look towards window out, you clearly see what is outside. But did you notice that the very moment your eyes focus on outside, the interior is getting dimmer on outer edges of your vision ? Human eye can make this transition in fraction of second, which is why most people will never notice, we barely notice what's happening at the fringes of our vision.
If your brain would be capable of taking 'screenshot' of full field of view that you're eyes are looking at, you would notice the room isn't exposed so brightly like you would do it in photography or 3D to make the room look nice. It would be at two good stops of light difference.

There is no dynamic range compression that will ever come out that will make it possible to tonemap single image globally to make up for big dynamic range difference. This has nothing to do with 3D, I just took a photo of seashore against backdrop of mountain baclit by Sun. The dynamic range difference between the black mountains occluded and the sun and its reflection on wet beach was easily beyond 16 stops of light. I took the picture in bracket with Sony A7r ii, 35mm DSLR with second largest dynamic range on market (D810/D850 surpass it at base ISO64). No amount of post-production could fix it to reasonable point.
The 'HDR' adaptive tonemapping compressors make for that ugly, uncanny look. Even if they got perfect and got rid of various artifacts (mixed saturation, halos, etc..) it would still look uncanny, and not resemble anything we would like.

The only way to overcome this is through trickery. The technique would be identical in photography as it is in 3D, throwing more light into less illuminated space to equalize the light levels to point where the disparity in dynamic range isn't as obvious.

I actually use very little dynamic range compression in Corona, in fact, less then HC=1.75 in ALL the time. I actually don't use it at all for product shots where I simply just lift midtones through curve instead. Such brutal compression leads to perceptual flatness, a boring and uncanny look.

I don't personally share the wish of some who think renderers would be able to resemble human vision at some point, I think it rather stems from not understanding of how human vision works. VR with adaptive exposure is already life-like, the solution never was in crazy tonemappers.
One more stance that I own is that I embrace how camera captures light. It's more sensitive to it, puts it more into focus. While things aren't as equalized as looked through eyes, I can just read the light so much more, it's so much more there (feeling best captured when photographing catedrals). I am trying to transfer this to our CGI work further. Make it more about the light than about the space alone, something I believe I didn't do right before. Small steps only :- )

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2017-10-10, 14:51:40
Reply #68

-Ben-Battler-

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Awesome, thank you for sharing.

Yeah I think imagery with quite LDR look more pleasant to my eyes too because they have some contrast. I wouldn't have thought that you're using such low HC values, that's insane. Although values above 2.5 don't change much more anyways.

I really appreciate it and would follow closely any discussions on this matter, also in the FStorm vs. Corona tonemapping thread that just turned up.
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2017-10-10, 14:56:57
Reply #69

Juraj

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Awesome, thank you for sharing.

Yeah I think imagery with quite LDR look more pleasant to my eyes too because they have some contrast. I wouldn't have thought that you're using such low HC values, that's insane. Although values above 2.5 don't change much more anyways.

I really appreciate it and would follow closely any discussions on this matter, also in the FStorm vs. Corona tonemapping thread that just turned up.

I still do want better tonemapper :- ) I don't want it to to reduce the scene into flat bland grey tones, but there is reason why people are still raving about "highlights fallof" of analog film. The transition is 'smoooth' so overburnts don't bother you, they're natural but end up looking good.
I really like full filmic because I can tell it what to do about blacks, midtones and highlights. The damn Reinhard just washes things out, it's terrible in every way, and CoronaFilmic is wrong completely, I haven't used it at all.
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2017-10-10, 19:29:10
Reply #70

mitviz

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its nice work, only the parquette flooring doesn't for me, it seems to make the space look chaotic, well the lower half of the space, it would have been better with a more glossy parquette and more contrasty, as is now, for me it just dirties up the room
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2017-10-10, 21:03:46
Reply #71

Juraj

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I'll make sure to tell the architects :- ) Don't want them to repeat such gross mistake.
Please follow my new Instagram for latest projects, tips&tricks, short video tutorials and free models
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2017-10-11, 09:35:27
Reply #72

diorowen

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haha.
Crazy stuff indeed.
Thanks for the answer. I'm still trying to learn, my learning curve doesnt feels like goin up yet.

2017-10-11, 11:14:46
Reply #73

Juraj

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haha.
Crazy stuff indeed.
Thanks for the answer. I'm still trying to learn, my learning curve doesnt feels like goin up yet.

Like in everything, the 'curve' has spikes ;- ) Projects I have on disc are proof there were years where I almost regressed.
Please follow my new Instagram for latest projects, tips&tricks, short video tutorials and free models
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2017-10-11, 11:22:53
Reply #74

maru

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Showing one of the projects which you are particularly unhappy about, and pointing out the things you would do differently today could make a really interesting topic.  :>
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