NORMAL MAP 2

[ozwald]

Greetings to the group
I'm working on a product, beer, and I'm using normal maps to generate the drops.
But I see that the finish is not as expected, I do not get the detail of normal.

the texture charge in the normal CORONA canar, but it does not look good.

I did a quick test with the C4D engine and with Vray and the two give a good result.
What can be?

[romullus]

Two most common issues with normal maps, are gamma and handedness. Make sure that your map is loaded with correct gamma and its green channel is pointed to the same direction that Corona expects.

[ozwald]

This is how it is placed, what I see is that corona clarifies the normal map, compared to the orifinal texture it looks more clear.
Now I do not know how to work with the normal CORONA, I thought it was just to put the texture and ready.
is what I did with the cinema and vray engine, and I had no problems, using the same texture

[ozwald]

Any answer to why in CORONA does not work in the same way as in the other render engines?
I want it to have details and a good finish as seen in the others.

I'm worried it's a job that I have to deliver tomorrow, and I would not want to be changing the rendering engine and doing everything again

[romullus]

I can't tell if your map is loaded with correct gamma (i think it is), but i can tell you that it is right handed (or Y+ or DirectX). If Corona for C4D treats normal maps the same as in 3ds Max, then you need to invert green (Y) channel. You can do that in normal shader itself - check flip Y (green).

[ozwald]

I can't tell if your map is loaded with correct gamma (i think it is), but i can tell you that it is right handed (or Y+ or DirectX). If Corona for C4D treats normal maps the same as in 3ds Max, then you need to invert green (Y) channel. You can do that in normal shader itself - check flip Y (green).

ok I can invest, but !! it will give me more sharpness ?
that's what I want to achieve, but the quality of the bump is not adequate

[romullus]

Most likely no, but it will certainly give you correct shading, which is far more important than anything else. As for shrpness, you can try to tweak image filtering in render setup or simply apply sharpness post processing filter in VFB or in post.

[ozwald]

thank you for sponder

that's wrong ... very bad, I changed the rendering engine to do this job.
I hope Corona please fix this error.
the map of normals is to obtain better nitidity in the relief

[romullus]

I don't get it, what do you find wrong with normal maps in Corona? Is it lack of sharpness that you've mentioned? I don't think it has anything to do with normal maps. If you look at your last example, it seems that C4D physical render is much sharper because it lacks any sort of antialiasing - just look at the egdes of the bottle.

[ozwald]

Let's see!!! I did not come here to be scolded.
To get started on the C4D material, I put a normal cloth and I gave it strength and that's it. there the resluted.

Now I did the same with Corona and the result after waiting a conciderable time to render is not the same.
So!! what am I doing wrong? in cororona the map of normals works in a different way? .... is it so complicated to use ?.

If there is a way for the Corona to show the result of Physics, I would love to know how ..

The problem is sharpness. I want it to be clear, that if the shadows are not correct the normal one is reversed and ready, but !!! it's sharpness what I want.

Is hard to understand?? I already have two days writing and I think I do not understand.

[romullus]

I suggest you to drop that attitude if you want to get help. I'm wasting my time in trying to help you and i have not a slightest desire to listen insults from you. I already told my opinion about difference in sharpness, whether you want to listen or not, is entirely up to you. Good luck and goodbye.

[ozwald]

O M G!!!
I can not believe it!! Are you really wasting your time?
Serving customers is wasting time?
Well if not, do not answer.
It is not the first time that I see that in the Corona forums, users are treated badly just for saying that the results are not as expected with a CORONA.

The image I passed above physical and Corona is better than a thousand words.
I want to achieve the same result with Corona, it is difficult to understand ??

Well, it does not matter, I'm going to do all my work with another rendering engine and not have headaches.

Thank you for your kind attention and do not waste your time anymore than I will not lose mine either.

Thank you

[TomG]

Romullus is not a member of the Corona Team, he is not serving customers, just helping other users. (He isn't employed by Render Legion or the Corona Team, and simply donates his time to help people, and has moderation powers in the forum as a helpful user so that he can manage things like moving threads around)

[romullus]

I'm NOT a Corona Team member and i'm NOT affiliated with Render Legion or Chaos group in any way. I'm just a regular Corona user and volunteer moderator of the forum. You should not take my words and actions as Corona Team's position!

Edit: ninja'd by Tom, thanks man!:]

[TomG]

On the issue itself, it does appear that there is no (or limited) anti-aliasing in the C4D physical image, as there are jagged edges at the edge of the bottle. You could try image sharpening in the VFB or in a photo editor in post, or you could look into changing the image filtering in Corona in the Frame Buffer settings, either changing the Type (not likely to have a big effect), or reducing the Width.

If you believe there is a bug, then we really do need the scene - to contact support here, see https://help.c4d.corona-renderer.com/support/solutions/articles/12000033461-how-to-report-issues- which tells you how to reach Corona support, and how to share a scene privately.

[maru]

One good idea would be sending the scene to us (preferably in a simplified, lightweight version), with the issue clearly visible - so that we could switch between Corona and the C4D Physical engine and clearly see the difference. Something like a plane with the bump texture applied would probably work fine. We could then try to check if the issue is inside the material setup or inside Corona.

[Ealexander]

Here's what I do on Normals:

In the top level BUMP channel, I set the strength to 100% and in the Texture drop down menu I choose Corona>Normal.  I then Click on the thumbnail of the normal (which at this point is still a checkerboard with a ? mark.  Clicking on the thumbnail takes me into the normal properties (this is where your previous screen grab is showing).  From here I choose the file in texture and in Channels Direction I check Flip Y (green).  Your screen grabs don't show the original bump channel properties which need to be at 100% - they default to 10% and it should be a Corona>Normal texture in the Texture slot.

Is this how you are setting it up?

[ozwald]

Here's what I do on Normals:

In the top level BUMP channel, I set the strength to 100% and in the Texture drop down menu I choose Corona>Normal.  I then Click on the thumbnail of the normal (which at this point is still a checkerboard with a ? mark.  Clicking on the thumbnail takes me into the normal properties (this is where your previous screen grab is showing).  From here I choose the file in texture and in Channels Direction I check Flip Y (green).  Your screen grabs don't show the original bump channel properties which need to be at 100% - they default to 10% and it should be a Corona>Normal texture in the Texture slot.

Is this how you are setting it up?

thanks for answering
Yes, that way I always use the normal ones, but !! I do not have strength in 100% but in 50.

[ozwald]

I do not know if the problem is because the material is glass, when giving 100% strength the normal channel, it does not look natural

[actrask]

I think the biggest lesson here is to not switch your renderer in the middle of a deadline.

There are always going to be nuances between renderers, especially tweaking bitmap filters trying to get refracted normals to behave identically between renderers.

When you have adequate time to solve a problem you can approach it with a sound mind and not be so emotional :)

[ozwald]

tests

[TomG]

Sending the scene to us would be helpful - https://help.c4d.corona-renderer.com/support/solutions/articles/12000033461-how-to-report-issues-

Unfortunately there is not a lot we can tell from just two side by side renders :(

[Ealexander]

Well based on your last images - the difference is pretty subtle.  I don't know if the Normals are doing something funky, but it might just be how the lighting is reacting to it. 

If you look at the left side of the bottle, you can see your reflection is much blurrier in the Corona renders then the Physical - so the engine is handling light different (this is normal - every engine is different) - but my point is that blurriness or softness of lighting won't produce the sharp highlights that I think you are looking for from the Physical render on the droplets.  So I don't know if Normals are okay or not, but I think there are a lot of subtle factors at play here. 

Lighting drives it all in 3D, so perhaps look at your lighting or other materials set ups as part of the variation in droplets.  I think the subtle difference is an acceptable variation of engine and I won't only look at Normals here.  Be curious to see Octane or Redshift version next to these just to see the contrast between more then two engines.

Also - I mix and composite images using different engines all the time - nothing wrong with that.  Use what works strongest for the job/task at hand.  Please send a file to the devs to take a look at.

[actrask]

Is it not a bitmap filter blur setting? Your Corona render looks like it's set at 1.0 where the C4D looks like 0.01

[ozwald]

hello guys thanks for being attentive, for reasons of time and that I have fallen behind with the work I have not been able to send the file since they are several products.
But!! Here I share the normal map that I am using in the glass, I pass them to a smaller size. so that if you want they can do tests.
my glass is transparent, with reflection of 1.6 and a refraction of 1.5 with green color, in the map of normal a force of 50%
Any comment will be pending

Thank you

[TomG]

Well, the images won't win any awards, was just a quick test :)

Looked like flip green was needed (otherwise the reflection in the droplets was upside down). I also started with changing the filtering as I'd suggested, and you can get a much sharper look - Tent width 2 is the default, but you can go Tent width 1, Blackman Harris width 1, or None. You could also use Sharpen/Blur in the VFB to sharpen some more if it wasn't getting oversharp by that point.

Without the original scene, I can't look at differences in lighting and how that might be tweaked, there did seem to be some differences there (the HDRI not being at the same angle maybe? It wasn't much and may just be expected difference between engines, but couldn't say without looking at the scene whether or not the Corona lighting could be tweaked in some way to look more like the other - even things like Highlight Compress etc. could make a difference to the vividness of the image).

Edit Wrong Tent 1 uploaded, wasn't cropped, adding that now.

Also, JPG artefacts show up in the normal map, at least in this smaller JPG version.

[ozwald]

TomG
Thank you very much, in truth, what interests me is the clarity you got, that's what I want.
The strength of the relief you used is 100%?

Your image will not get any prize but it is very valuable for many who have problems with normal maps.

Thank you

[TomG]

Hi!

In this case, I used a strength of around 25% - didn't go any higher due to the JPG artefacts, which were more and more prominent the higher the strength (and things did begin to look "too strong" up toward 100% anyway). Most likely the filtering setting had the biggest difference for the image - was going fast yesterday so didn't have time to make a screengrab, here it is now. And in case the "super sharpened extra vivid" post processing might be of interest, the .conf file is attached for that, you can load it into the VFB (or ignore if that last image was too over the top ;) )

[TomG]

I'm hoping the original normal map (before it was made smaller) doesn't have those JPG artefacts in it too :)

[ozwald]

I'm hoping the original normal map (before it was made smaller) doesn't have those JPG artefacts in it too :)

Thank you very much friend, it was what I wanted, it has really changed a lot.
Tent px1 goes much better.
About normal I do not know much, that's a pack I bought, supposedly professional at 5000px size.
About Tent px1 gives me an idea to get more details in other types of textures.

Thanks again

[TomG]

You're welcome! I bet the original file you purchased doesn't have the artifacts, and they just appeared when downsized based on the JPG save settings used. That will mean your results should be even better than mine, plus if needed you could go higher with the Bump strength. Good luck with the project!

[ozwald]

thanks