Author Topic: Pricing and release date announced  (Read 168071 times)

2014-11-06, 11:33:08
Reply #270

lacilaci

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Really I don't understand what do you have that fixation with "complain", we are not complaining, we are trying to be constructive and add some point of views that are not being understood while we are saying "the price is good, it's not expensive but...", but you keep going with the "complain"... Ok, it's impossible, I understood that.

Cheers.

Alright then, I might be viewing this from a wrong angle or something. Being not a smartest person in the world excuse me if I don't understand something.

The way I see things now is like this:

1. If corona does currently all you need in near future, get box and don't care if you don't rely on latest stuff which we don't even know what will be updated / added to corona and what is planned for next year or so.. You can use corona for your work everything is just fine, pay fixed price and no need to even care about saas model or subscription.. especialy with low budget and variable low income.. All problems solved. And if you see some news about corona getting something new you could use, try for a month for 25 euros and if it will be worth upgrading, get new box licence or switch to saas.

2. If you already see that updates and new stuff for corona is alway something useful and that you might need all this new things all the time pay cheap monthly price and you get all the best newest stuff.. And again if development starts stagnating and updates are not enough valuable for you then stop and switch to box and don't care anymore..

The only problem that could ever happen here is if one or another of options would be not available:

1. If development would go box licencing only, they could postpone major feature upgrades to new major versions so that you could be forced to upgrade every year full box price.

2. If development would go saas only, no matter how fair it looks, they could find different reasons to up the price every year or so and they would not need to develop any major updates until competition would force them cause you cannot stop paying if you want to use it.

Right now you are free to choose, not forced into anything and you are choosing between cheap and cheap and you have upper hand on the development and somehow you still want more... more options more something more cheap... who is greedy here?

Yes I might missunderstood your constructive criticism or something... But I'm not responding to you personaly but to everyone who feels they should get more.. You got corona for free for long enough to know how the development works so please show some support not just monetary but also show some respect. Because it seems that even if it would be one euro per month and 10 for box even then some people would go crazy about it.

I would go 1500 euro box only free updates(no major new features), unlimited nodes, and I would find a way to force you upgrade every year and I would not even be having this discussion with you and I would still be a hero fighting against saas model. And you would have no choice. Would you like being this kind of slave more?

these are just my opinions, don't take it personally no one I'm having a bad day :D... sorry

2014-11-06, 11:54:00
Reply #271

Coronaut

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OK, i read right trough it, everything is pretty well explained...
NOW i have issue with Box license, you only offer 3 render nodes? So you want to tell me that is fair that i give you money up front with no options for upgrade unless i want to pay subscription of 99e per year and then i have to pay upgrade to any other major release 2.0 or 3.0 and so on?
I want this RS to succeed and i am willing to go with BOX as that is best way to support developers from start, i can go over no updates, additional subscription but 3 %$@#*&! render nodes, are you kidding me? So just cuz i have more then 3 RN i need to go SAAS? How is that fair.
And i know those updates sound good but i never ever do updates unless they are major fixes and i need them ASAP in middle of the project. So personally that it is small benefit to me.
Please reconsider those ridiculous number(3) of render nodes in BOX model to something more reasonable... I know it is thin line and you do not want to offer 10 free render nodes forever so someone could use them for large farms but 3 nodes is too low, and your official solution is to buy another license for WS just so i could use it for render nodes...  Or to change my settup by upgrading nodes and adding more processors per computer thus making my nodes efficient perf. per watt in long run(Electricity, storage, heat and so on)...
I know 349 makes it cheaper then other RS but 3 render nodes :D i know i keep obsessing... 
Edit: after all those links(it is changed... etc.) You can go SAAS 24.99 1_WS + 5_RN doesn't say for how much as it is promo, or if you choose not to pay one month or if that license expire do you pay regular price or it still stays same... 300e per year free upgrades and all kind of stuff
BOX: 2 License so you could use lets say 5 nodes and one WS that is with promo discount 700e per year... You get fix but not major updates...
Not fair deal, you are pushing me in SAAS territory... Actually i don't know who will in his right mind go for BOX unless he doesn't care. Why you have Box at all then, as false competitor?
« Last Edit: 2014-11-06, 12:06:56 by Coronaut »

2014-11-06, 12:20:29
Reply #272

boumay

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Guys I think I failed to make my point, so I retire from this conversation,

You have been very clear in your explanations, don't worry.

@lacilaci
I think you've pretty well summed up the thing about box and saas.

And I guess people didn't understand what we tried to say in these last posts because, actually the conversation has shifted, while being highly related.
I agree I said that I was expecting a lower price, mostly, and I don't know if people remember the article, because the developpers themselves were suggesting us that corona will always be cheap and, even that it may remain free in a certain way, so you can't blame us to see it "not cheap" when it comes out to more expensive than redshift for instance. Anyway, it's only my opinion after all, and I'm ready to buy it because I think it is still worth it.

But the point, in fact, is that we began to talk about the general saas-ONLY model and argued about it, but we didn't really precised it so people got confused, thinking we were generally complaining.

The reason why we did is because we felt that corona team was leaning towards saas-only in the future, and we wanted to expose the desaster it will be for many of us.

And I'm sure, after reflexion, that the saas-only defenders will actually realize how bad this model is for freelancers and mid-size companies, that many of them will simply close their doors in profit of the big corporations. The rich becomes richer and makes the poor poorer.
This model is in the logic of the greedy capitalism market who eats everything on its way, destroying people and countries.

2014-11-06, 12:40:38
Reply #273

juang3d

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Ok, I'm out, as I said my target was not to complain at all, but to add some point of views of a Box  licenses purchaser, I don't see SaaS as a license for me at all, just as a temporal companion to Box, and since I'm a Box license I see some problems regarding this kind of licenses, with the words "Price is ok" before everything I said I added some points that IMHO could be improved in the Box licenses to make them better while maintaining teh devs income related to this license mode, becasue that is what matter here, the dev team needs money to live and they've made their numbers, the price tag comes out from that numbers, so I tried to think things that can make the Box license better without affecting those numbers in a negative way, in any case, a positive way, maybe this has not been understood that way and I explained myself wrong, and I'm sorry for that, and as I've said I'm out of this, I should stay quiet in that last post, it's just that I feel that everything I posted is being understood as a complain or is being ignored, and neither of those two options make sense to me to stay here talking about this.

Coronaut they already said that they prefer the SaaS model, and I don't find unfair that they prefer customers into SaaS model and they've always been clear about this respect, and I thank them for that, so they do it more appealing, that's not unfair, it's business you will make more appealing the option you want to work on more, and that is perfectly right, I just wanted them to improve a bit the Box license, but really this is being understood from the wrong angle, as a negative conversation, and that was not my intention, so I'm really sorry for that.

As I said I'll acquire my Box licenses and will keep using Corona even with some SaaS licenses from time to time because I have the option and once again, I'm grateful about this, and I'll keep trying to help and to participate here, but I'm out of the License matter discussion :)

Cheers!

P.S.: I hope I don't feel tempted on chiming in again, I'll try as hard as I can! :)

2014-11-06, 12:49:11
Reply #274

Ondra

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juang3d: dont worry, I was not pointing any fingers at you specifically. It was at some other people I was to lazy to go back through this thread to find... and then Coronaut chimed in and gave me a prime example of a fanatic post with no respect to our work, that makes me want to just sell corona and retire.
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2014-11-06, 13:16:47
Reply #275

Coronaut

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Fanatic post? And with no respect to your work... since you are pushing someone in something he doesn't want like subscription. I never said anything disrespectful to you or corona and not only that but it is quite opposite, and only thing that pokes my eyes now is when i have opinion that is differ then your suggestion of 3 render nodes and few more questions it is like "no respect to our work and i want to sell and retire"
Giving promise is one thing and good for you that you can keep them but making someone accepting it is another... I do see BOX model as ugly sister of a bride offered so you do not think too much what you will pick...
Lay it down on paper sum it up and everything should be clear and clearly SAAS is better...
Pricing is fair and 700e is still bargain(even for box) and it would be bargain even for SAAS, but there is small amount of BS going on here like false competitor BOX and it is so ridiculous that punishes people who want to invest in your development at start and support your developing and willing to pay upgrades every year. Only thing they want is copy of fully working RS for a year that will be usable even if something goes wrong or whatever reason might be.
Anyhow...

2014-11-06, 13:29:46
Reply #276

DeadClown

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Since there seems to be a little misconception.. concerning box, you have two options:
A) Buy box without subscription and pay for the 2.0, 3.0, etc when they come out
OR
B) buy box with subscription and get the 2.0, 3.0 updates automatically without having to pay any updates ever

Btw, some people were actually expressing their opinion that saas would be the "unfair" option because box will become "cheaper" at about the 3rd year. So some feel that way, others feel the exact opposite...
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.

2014-11-06, 14:12:21
Reply #277

Coronaut

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I will collate all this:
BOX: 1ws+5nodes=700+99+99 subscriptions so it is 900 + if i am not mistaken subscription for BOX is 99per year per license as i need 2 of them... combined costs for 3 years is 1300euros. Anyhow it is still cheap for this product. If i decide not to update after one year i will end up with release 1.0 and some updates or fix and i will be able to use that forever just for 350+99 or 700+198 if i buy 2 license for extra nodes.

SAAS: 24.99 month(1ws+5nodes) x 12= 300e x 3years it is 900euros. 300e per year with all updates, soon you decide not to pay anymore from whatever reason your license will expire and you wouldn't be able to work anymore with Corona. So basically this is renting with so much benefits that are good enough to reconsider choosing this option.

If this calculations are so disrespectful. Then this bellow is even more disrespectful then.

If you are what you say You are, and you are willing to give opportunity to someone(buyers) to punish you by choosing not to subscribe anymore and take his business somewhere else. This is your BIGGEST selling point, right?
Why there is double price(double as in i need to pay double license) for BOX when in fact is the same? Could it be as they(buyers) would have fully functioning version of corona and still be able to punish you if something goes south but instead of nothing they will be able to work with it?
Why don't you place your money where your mouth is and offer BOX at same price or proportionally higher by adding more nodes or at least option for upgrade node license same as SAAS have?

Option to choose for myself to upgrade every year voluntarily and stay with you and support you as developer on basis that you are offering better and better product, as you claim you will and probably you will... Then i probably wouldn't question your determination to be fair to anyone using your product.
That is why i think SAAS is pushy...
Now i get that there is other side of the coin(your side) as you do not want to get fucked over by piracy or whatever, but i can't offer you anything else except supporting your development by purchasing your software if everything is working so i do not end up my support and i do think that is fair arrangement.
SAAS provides your security but making end user being dependent of you and not owning anything and it is better agreement right now but since there is nothing absolute in life then nothing guarantees me that you will sell your business and eventually leave us with 3rd party or whatever that comes to your mind.
« Last Edit: 2014-11-06, 14:17:45 by Coronaut »

2014-11-06, 14:30:19
Reply #278

form

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Personally I feel saas model is fantastic option especially for those starting up. Start up costs are killer.. so this really helps guys out in a similar position to myself.
I can't wait for the release! dead keen to make use of interactive.

2014-11-06, 14:51:04
Reply #279

CJI

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Some of the reactions on here have surprised me. I'm not a fan of the "Rental" way software development is going due, in part because our human nature is to want to own something. I dont like the idea of having to pay to do hobby work if i was no longer working upon retirement or change of careers. Here is where i think Adobe dropped the ball in not providing a long standing solution. How hard would it be to provide users that have subscribed for 5 - 10 years a perpetual licence of whatever version they stop their subscription at. No upgrades but they can still access all their work etc without losing features.(CS6 and CC)

At least corona is providing us options and is not just rental. And not too expensive ones either. The box model is not expensive, for what is a very robust high quality engine that is only going to improve. For those that cant afford the outright cost you can jump on the SaaS version and can buy the box when they have the funds if thats what they choose.

In the end it has to be financially viable not just to cover costs but also turn over a profit as we are all entitled to the fruits of our labour. Cash flow is better and more stable under rental so i understand why that is the preferred option for developing. Saas is subsidised for quick cheap uptake of the engine and all the benefits associated with Saas. Yes this becomes more expensive than buying outright, but that is the point, it has to balance the books for development AND profit and you get more extras.

The options are there so if you don't want one choose the other. SaaS is not interest free credit to buy the software. I think the license flexibilty provided is an exemplary example of trying to do what's best for users WHILE having a successful business and product. The options are fairly balanced in my opinion.

I do think there is space in these rental schemes for a "loyalty reward" that says after a certain amount of time leasing you gain permanent access to whatever version you stop subscription at. Therefore giving your money some future value. The lack of this feature is my biggest gripe with rental options, that I would be completely stuck in to paying if i ever wanted to do any work with old files or hobby work after my time in a paid career has ended.

Apologies for the Tome of writing, I just find what you guys at Corona have created is perhaps the best example of open product and software development I have seen. I hope you reap the rewards from your hard work and staying true to your original goals.

2014-11-06, 15:37:01
Reply #280

Juraj

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And I'm sure, after reflexion, that the saas-only defenders will actually realize how bad this model is for freelancers and mid-size companies, that many of them will simply close their doors in profit of the big corporations. The rich becomes richer and makes the poor poorer.
This model is in the logic of the greedy capitalism market who eats everything on its way, destroying people and countries.

I think this is the point where this discussion became off the reaches of normal and should be ceased.

In business no one owes you anything, and by same logic, no one forces you to do anything. No one forces anyone into SaaS, and if someone doesn't like the choice, he doesn't need to choose at all,
but he's surely not a victim at any point.


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2014-11-06, 17:00:24
Reply #281

jonas007

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i agree with juraj,  i think this conversation is going nowhere at this point, the only thing i know is that there is a software called corona render, its a good product, i need it for my work, and im wainting for the Legal OWNER to say what price should i have to pay, to use it, im so sorry everybody  thank you corona team for the SAAS  for me OK!! (when i have enough   money to spend  (in one time ("i need to eat every day")  probably the BOX)

2014-11-06, 18:46:09
Reply #282

boumay

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I think this is the point where this discussion became off the reaches of normal and should be ceased.

In business no one owes you anything, and by same logic, no one forces you to do anything. No one forces anyone into SaaS, and if someone doesn't like the choice, he doesn't need to choose at all,
but he's surely not a victim at any point.

I should remind that, in this phrase, I talk about the SaaS-"ONLY" model.
Will you deny the fact that adobe or AD behavior in SaaS-only is a child of capitalism for instance? Greed profit at all costs, even if they are already mutli-billionaires, and no matter who is destroyed in the process. Capitalism at its best.
I don't call anybody to communism, this is also a bad model, but between the two, there is a healthy way.
Anyway, I didn't want to shift the discussion to this subject, it was just like a signature, to give a morality at the end of my words. I always like to discuss ethics and moral with people and I like for others what I like for myself.

I won't talk about this furthermore, because the thread has to remain what it is, but just one or two things.
Of course the base is freedom, but there is a point where your behavior can become toxic. You can't deny the human and moral dimension in every relation we have between each other, even in business.

Juraj, if what I said became off the reaches of normal or didn't make sense, then ask yourself:

Why a large amount of users are so angry against adobe and AD? These companies don't owe anything to users, isn't it?
So, are users right? or are they saying things off the reaches of normal?
Then, think about what you would say to them, would you tell them that if they don't like the choice, they just don't have to choose at all?
Would you tell them that, if they don't like, they are free to leave?
Do you think things are that straightforward in life? 0 or 1?

I don't ask to answer my post here, just questions for yourself.

Kindly, :)
boumay.

2014-11-06, 19:04:47
Reply #283

Juraj

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Even though Adam states Adobe as a way how not to do SaaS, I love how they did it :- ).

Adobe Photoshop CS6 Pro/Extended costed updards of 800-999 euro in most of EU regions.

Adobe CC which is on par of Pro, not the regular version now costs 20 euros a month (or half of that if you take the Photography deal and owned PS+LR licence previously).
So it would take 4 years until I would pay it to level of CS, at which point, there would already be CS(X+2) at least. Both their model and pricing is excellent, I have little understanding
for  issues with "not owning" anything. By the time this could cause issue, given items or service could be obsolete, moving this into literally academic and theoretical issue. And I am realist.

I don't see what it has to do with Capitalism. Companies are private entities, entitled for right of their own choices. You as customer in free market, are free to follow or not. There is nothing negative
about companies not being able to please everyone, they can't and they don't have to. If it proves to be wrong decision, the market will punish them.

I said it became off the reaches of normal because it was downright rude and offending towards developers. You can't call normal business choice greedy and capitalist because it doesn't fit your point of view in life.
You have to be little bit more objective.
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2014-11-06, 19:10:05
Reply #284

Ondra

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goddamnit, I just cannot resist a good shitstorm!

Will you deny the fact that adobe or AD behavior in SaaS-only is a child of capitalism for instance? Greed profit at all costs, even if they are already mutli-billionaires, and no matter who is destroyed in the process. Capitalism at its best.

This is just not true.
1) It looks like you are saying greed is caused by capitalism. That is not true, greed exists in every system, even in communism. The key difference is that while communism is not aware of this fact, and fails because it does not take this fact into account, capitalism is aware of this fact, and works even when people are greedy
2) In capitalism, if one company drives the prices up, another company will sooner or later arise to take the market. If we had a monopoly in render engines, and decided we will now provide only 1 render node free, and each subsequent one will cost, I dont know, say 250 euro, sooner or later some other developer would arrive and steal our customers with lower prices and/or better product. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and telling you to use specific product... at least in capitalism, in communism it is different ;)
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