Pricing and release date announced

[Ondra]

I won't argue with everything you wrote. I just don't know how we could make some things clearer. I will never understand people saying 350+99  is worse than 450 with mandatory included subscription. And I will never understand people saying they dont know if they will have 25€ next month to pay for SaaS even though they could just set aside the money at the beginning.

I will just react to one thing:

there has been a bit of general disappointment regarding the box license pricing

This is NOT true. According to the poll we made, the vast majority of users is satisfied and voted for SaaS option. It seems that the "only box, saas is evil" group is small, but very loud one.

[racoonart]

This is NOT true. According to the poll we made, the vast majority of users is satisfied and voted for SaaS option. It seems that the "only box, saas is evil" group is small, but very loud one.

There are also the "I like Box but Saas may be a good option for many" people ;)
Actually, I also wouldn't say there is a general disappointment regarding box. I had the impression that Box was quite well accepted.

I'd be interested in seeing how the Poll results are, any chance to have a look?

[boumay]

And I will never understand people saying they dont know if they will have 25€ next month to pay for SaaS even though they could just set aside the money at the beginning.

I don't know if you have ever lived hard times but, for modest freelancers (perhaps in your country as you mentionned in the first articles about pricing), it can easily become difficult sometimes, to pay 25€euros for just a rendering engine, considering the fact that they'd have difficulties to pay their rent and electricity bill (I say this by experience).
People outside western countries aren't able to charge clients as much as others in us or western europe, thus making their revenues small, alongside the lack of employement etc.

It seems that the "only box, saas is evil" group is small, but very loud one.

Then, you should go on the various cg forums and see by yourself how many people are angry about the saas-only model, they are the majority of thread participants. We are not talking about saas as an choice/option, which is well accepted, but as saas-only.
Usually, people defending saas-only model seem to be employed, having a comfortable living, their employers paying all the subs for them, etc, they are not owning their business, thus not foreseeing the conséquences this model has on people's life and on economy.
I agree with juang, I think greed is a main factor for the saas-only model. This is egoist and benefit only the software companies.
I say this because I was afraid this was the route towards which you were leaning, that's what I felt when reading the pricing article. I hope you'll never get seduced by this saas-only. And I repeat, like said others, this saas-only will help killing the middle-class.


Let's take an example of a typical scenario for a vfx freelancer on this model (in dollars)
- 195 for max (completely possible in their monthly rental scheme this is the price)
 - 55 for tp
 - 50 for fumefx (I'm making out this, it's just theoretically)
 - let's say another 50 for krakatoa (I'm making out this, it's just theoretically)
- 32 for corona

So this makes approx. 400/month just for work. BTW: this is just for one workstation, one person! think of two or three workstations!
When you are in a scenario where it has been 2 or 3 month of unemployment, and a project pops up, you don't even have the opportunity to take it because you couldn't pay your saas'ss, and you can't use a single software. You would have been happy to use, even an older version of owned software, just to complete this project and pay your bills.

Do you see why many people prefer owning their software?

[Ondra]

So this makes approx. 400/month just for work. BTW: this is just for one workstation, one person! think of two or three workstations!
When you are in a scenario where it has been 2 or 3 month of unemployment, and a project pops up, you don't even have the opportunity to take it because you couldn't pay your saas'ss, and you can't use a single software. You would have been happy to use, even an older version of owned software, just to complete this project and pay your bills.

Do you see why many people prefer owning their software?

So even though you dont have 25€, you will have 450€ up front for the box version? I still don't get this. Our SaaS model is aimed exactly at this situation - if you are unemployed for 3 months - you just cancel our SaaS and save 75€. This is how we want to make the software affordable.

Besides, if you have the 450€ for box version, you can set it aside and use it to pay the SaaS - in case you have job and are making money. If not - then you can save it for later when you get one, or use it for anything else. You won't get stuck with 450€ worth of software you won't use. I am not asking you to do this. But I dont understand why some people just refuse this possibility.

[juang3d]

This is NOT true. According to the poll we made, the vast majority of users is satisfied and voted for SaaS option. It seems that the "only box, saas is evil" group is small, but very loud one.

That is good then, but I'm not thinking as of today, I'm thinking in one/two years or so, if I have Adobe and Corona as rented software for two workstations that makes me this:

Corona 50€
Adobe ~140€

Now add the following software we may need if it were on SaaS

3dsMax ~150€
Maya ~ 150€

This makes 490€/month, add also Unity 3D with iPhone and Android, as a generalist studio we do render and real time work:

Unity3d 57€
Android 57€
iPhone 57€

This makes a grand total of 661€ for a software I currently own and cost me 0/month, that doesnt means that I don't pay for it regularily, but I pay for it when I can, I recently paid around 2000€ for the Unity3d upgrade to version 4/5 but I want's able to pay for it before and I kept working with Unity 3.5.7 at cost 0 until I was able to pay for the upgrade, if in any case I had been unable to gain the money for Unity then I had been able to keep working for demos for clients with Unity 3.5.7 until I manage to acquire a project and I had been able to upgrade, with a rent option, this may have rendered impossible.

Same applies for the rest of the software, I don't doubt I will have 50€ next month, well there are times when I doubt it, but of course I pretty much doubt I will have 661€ every month for software, and I can't work with Corona without Max, so if I'm in a struggle I will have to stop working with corona to gain more projects becasue I will have to remove money from somewhere and Corona is not a base software, it's a render engine, as much as I like it.

In the end, is not that your SaaS price is not good, it is good, for me is great, as I said, as a side wing for my renderfarm, I don't need the rendefarm fed always, I can manage to work during the project with just 8 licenses (2 WS and 6 render) and pay for some nodes when it's needed, but I don't want to depend on my bank to keep working, I want to own my tools because if I don't have money, I have my tools to gain some more.

Now about my affirmation not being true, I thought I should have written "it feels that..." because I don't have data, anyways I know a lot of people that thought that SaaS (in general) is great until they start thinking in things like I told here, or when they start to pay for everything in SaaS mode, I have a friend that decided to go on SaaS with Unity, no he can't pay for it and it's locked up, he can't finish his project, the only solution was me helping him for free because I own my licenses so I don't depend on money to work with Unity, the same goes for Corona or for any tool I have.

Adobe is the only SaaS I have to keep, and I will get rid of it as son as I can, i'm looking for alternatives for After Effects and Photoshop, there are some for the first one, but there is no real alternative for photoshop, but I'll manage to found some way throught it.

Now regarding what DeadClown said, I think that way, SaaS is not evil, in fact SaaS could be great for a lot of people, what you do keeping Box license is the way to go IMHO, it just felt that you love SaaS a lot and leave the Box licenses with less love, like the ugly son hehehe, it felt that way because after the first wave of comments you modified a lot of things in the SaaS model like giving an increased render node option, but with Box licenses you just removed the 90 days of grace for subscription and that's it, that doesn't felt good, at least for me as a Box customer (bear in mind I don't say it in an angry tone or anything, it's just how it felt), but I always kept in mind you were trying to be fair while remaining in business.

Anyways I'm happy for people that like SaaS , I have to insist SaaS is not evil, is great as an option, wich is what you are doing, and me, from my side, I'm grateful to you for not offering just SaaS.

About the general disappointment regarding box, you may be right but I've already read some people saying that they won't be able to afford it here, but Ondra, you could be right, and it may be that this small group it's just too loud (I may be inside that group I assume)

Anyways, i'll keep purchasing Corona Box license, and with my comments about the pricing and subscription for Box I'm trying to be constructive on giving plausible options that could keep you going with what you need but will let more users that want the box model in.

And fianlly, why people understand 350+99 is worse than 450, well, I don't understand that either, and I tried to explain that 350+99 is better than 450€, but I think that people is seeing it as 450€ no matter what since once you acquire Corona you have to acquire the subscription no matter what or you won't be able to enter on it, and maybe that's what people are saying, if you want kept up to date you have no option to chime in later, so the real price is 450€ no 350€+99€, I'm playing the devils advocate here, because I will always prefer to have the option to not acquire the subscription, but really think about giving the option for a delayed subscription acquisition, even when the subs time counts from the license purchase date, not from the subscription purchase date, this can relax the thing about having to acquire the subs right away and spending 99€ more.

Another thing that I don't understand, and more people here have spoken about, is the thing that the SaaS will be flaoting, while the Box wont, as I say, it feel a bit like in the end the box licenses is poorly treated than the SaaS (my words may sound hars, but I wont them to sound harse, I want just to comment this out because I've been thinking on how to expose this since the second post about pricing was published but I thought that this oculd offend or something similar, so bear in mind that I don't want to offend please), maybe the floating thing is not true, because I don't remember seeing anything completely clear about it, I think you said that this parts of the licenses were not completely decided yet.

Cheers.

[juang3d]

I wrote my post while you were posting guys, so let me add:

Yes, I can have 450€ and not have a penny tomorrow, is how it works for us, there are moments in the year werer we have very little money, if anything, so we can have 450€ but no money tomorrow, this is not a matter of opinion, it's just how it works for us, and for a lot of small studios and freelancers I know.

And about why we don't see that possibility, becasue I passed hard times with more than one year without a job in the past, the crysis hit was BIG here, I eliminated my funds and my reservations and I haven't had a penny for work, I wasn't able to pay even the light and my house, I had loaned money from my family to pay he basics, so yes, I've been in the situation where paying 25€/month may be impossible, even when you don't think this is possible, belive me, it is possible, so I prefer to pay for my tools when I have money and assure my self that if I don't have money in the future I will be able to work and recover, with SaaS that is not possible, you may be capable of organizing your money in a way were if you have 450€ for the SaaS license you can keep it, but in my case, if there is money in the bank there are incidentals in my life that require that money so I won't be able to dedicate that money for that, really I think you are not thinking that those situations are possible, but I lived one of those situations a few, very few, years ago, and now I'm a father, I cannot risk to loose my tools for my job, no matter the economics of tomorroy, I live today, if I have the money today I'll acquire my tools to keep them for tomorrow, if I have money tomorrow, I'll be happy with my money and my tools :)

Bear in mind that in my case for example, I don't have any loan form the bank, I never had, I've always lived from my work, in day to day basis, and for me it's impossible to do it in other way, because we have a lot of competition that uses piracy, we have a lot of people that lives from the government subsidys, it's hard to live here and be completely legal and live from your work, that is why I don't trust in the future, I trust in the present, I build my home in the present so I'll have shelter in the future, that is my way of thinking at least, nad I think is the same way boumay thinks.

Cheers.

P.S.: BTW, as a side note, in the boumay example is 400$ just for work, but if you don't have work, you don't have money, and the SaaS has to be paid upfront, so we don't have money, we can get a job, but we don't have money for SaaS because we are not going to be paid up to three months after we finish the job, so this can render us without money around 4 or 5 months, so how will we pay those 400$/month to accept the job?
Sorry, SaaS is not for me :)

[Ondra]

About the general disappointment regarding box, you may be right but I've already read some people saying that they won't be able to afford it here, but Ondra, you could be right, and it may be that this small group it's just too loud (I may be inside that group I assume)

Expected conversion rate in software sales is about 5% - meaning generally when a company starts to monetize, 1 in 20 users will be willing to pay for anything. We know we will lose a lot of users, and we are prepared for it. It might suck, but bottom line is that we need money to get something back for our investments, and to keep the development going. I was expecting this.

What I was not expecting is so many people being butthurt, as if they were expecting Corona to stay free forever. I am sorry, but I had only one life savings to burn through when developing Corona. Or even worse, people putting themselves on moral high ground, lecturing us on greed without actually knowing shit about real costs of running a company doing software development. I assume they just want to feel good about themselves when they will later steal it. But it still pisses me off, knowing what offers I had turned down because I did not want to screw our users.

[Ondra]

Yes, I can have 450€ and not have a penny tomorrow

Hypothetical question: if you cannot set aside 450€ for SaaS payments... what would you do if you used the money for Box purchase? Loanshark? Starvation? ;)

[juang3d]

lecturing us on greed without actually knowing shit about real costs of running a company doing software development

I hope you don't refer to me with this (I have not read anyone else saying anything about greed, but I may be wrong), but what I said is exactly the opposite, you are NOT being greed, Cebas is from my POV they already had a good development cycle but users probably stop upgrading, don't know why, so they decide that SaaS was the only way to access their software, from my POV that is greed, you  are not being greed IMHO, I don't want to lecture you at all, I think you tried to keep things under control and you tried to find the better way for everyone, I did lecture Cebas of course.

I'm happy with your prices, but I'm trying to explain, from my POV, why SaaS is not for us, and why it is dangerous for freelancers and small studios IMO,

Also, anwering your question, I don't know, in the past I was able to cancel things like internet or the cell phone an yet keep working to recover myself lowering the monthly cost to the most basic things, electricity and home, I even cutted back from food when needed, and no, no loans at all, not in all my life, and yes, a bit of starvation XD and that allowed me to recover myself and today have money for Corona :)

Cheers.

[boumay]

I am sorry, but I had only one life savings to burn through when developing Corona. Or even worse, people putting themselves on moral high ground, lecturing us on greed without actually knowing shit about real costs of running a company doing software development. I assume they just want to feel good about themselves when they will later steal it. But it still pisses me off, knowing what offers I had turned down because I did not want to screw our users.

I think like juang3d about saas and other things, in fact I'm in the same situation.
And I also talked about greed, but:
We didn't lecture on you greed, we said saas-"only" is greed. And, I can tell you that we know what it costs to run a company.
As for the last statement about people wanting to feel good about themselves when they'll steal it, I hope you don't think that about us. You just have to analyze what juang said, as well as me, to see that we are very concerned by respecting other's right, and we don't use piracy at all, all of my software is licensed for instance, while I could pirate them at any time.
We are just advising to what we think is right. :)

[ikercito]

Hypothetical question: if you cannot set aside 450€ for SaaS payments... what would you do if you used the money for Box purchase? Loanshark? Starvation? ;)

The way I see it, the BOX model is an investment. You buy something, you keep it. That's why it is appealing to some of us, like in my case, freelancers.

Take that same money in the Saas model, and it is like putting an expiration date on something you've bought. What if in 2 years time our business has gone wrong and we don't have money to pay the Saas license? We have no way to work.

If in 2 years time I need to work and have no money, I still can, even if it's an obsolete piece of software, to try to get back on business.

[juang3d]

Completely agree with you, boumay, of course I don't even though Keymaster could be referring to us regarding piracy, and of course, any comment I post here is to be constructive, I dedicate too much time writing to dedicate it to do any other thing, I just write my thoughts because I think you hear and analyze things, you could even decide things that has nothing to do with what I said, but I have the feeling that you listen and analazy things, wich is great.

Cheers.

[ikercito]

BTW I completely agree with Juang3D and boumays opinions.

If we would be thinking of pirating the software we would probably not be here discussing about licensing options. We're just trying to show our opinions about your licensing methods.

I don't know what the poll results were... but my guess is quite a few of those Saas-happy voters may not last as much as most of Box licensees, which are thinking in a longer term, not just the immediate future.

[racoonart]

I don't know what the poll results were... but my guess is quite a few of those Saas-happy voters may not last as much as most of Box licensees, which are thinking in a longer term, not just the immediate future.

Possibly, but on the other hand, an saas option may attract people who just want to try Corona for a while and don't want to pay the whole thing upfront ;) . Plus, if you already invested a lot of time (materials, scenes, workflow) it's more likely that you stay with it, thus renew your saas contract.

[boumay]

Possibly, but on the other hand, an saas option may attract people who just want to try Corona for a while and don't want to pay the whole thing upfront ;) . Plus, if you already invested a lot of time (materials, scenes, workflow) it's more likely that you stay with it, thus renew your saas contract.

saas is very good as an option, in fact it's actually better with it beside box license, more choices=better.
That's saas-only that is bad for users.