Subscription Terms - bit disappointing

[Muadib]

hi there,

so i just got an email saying my sub is nearing to an end and whether i´d like to update.
asking for clarification on the terms i recieved following info:
- upon leaving the subscription one permanently loses any way of upgrading corona at any later date.

i am trying to be objective here but this really does not seem fair to me.
infact it reminds me of autodesk policies of forcing the userbase into subscriptions.

i admired the no bullshit policies that corona team operated on so this kinda comes as a suprise.
can i ask what the rationale behind these terms is?

[PROH]

It sounds like you think it would be fair to let people only pay for Corona those months where the updates are released? Would that be fair to "full-time" subscribers? Would that be fair to the developers?

[Muadib]

no.
i just find it bizarre that there is absolutely no way of getting onto the sub if for whatever reason dropping out.
there is surely a middleground here, even if including late/penalty fee.

[maru]

Hi, thanks for expressing your opinion.

I would just like to note that you can read this about the subscription on our website before placing the order:

Can be purchased only when buying the Box license, not later

[AdamHotovy]

Hi,
I think that you are referring to an answer which our new assistant sent earlier today.
I am not aware of the full content of the email as I did not read it (I will ask Monika to pass me that email tomorrow morning). But I guess that you are the owner of Box + Subscription license.
And because you were one of the few people who paid for your license directly (not through our website) we have sent you the reminder that your subscription license will expire soon with a proforma invoice for 99EUR for next 12 month. I do remember that Monika briefly asked me what will happen if the customer will decide to not renew his subscription. I gave a short answer, that the customer will keep the current version of the software what they have, but will not be able to receive new versions and upgrades anymore. I have also said, that there will not be a possibility for the customer to pay 99USD subscription again at later stage. Like 4 / 9 / 16 months after his original license expired. I think that this is a correct behaviour. Because if you decide that you want to jump back to the "subscription wagon" only at the time when you like some certain update (for example 7months after your original subscription expired), you should not receive 12 months free updates from the moment you have decided to pay 99Euros. We could possibly let you pay 99Euros, and set the validity of such subscription just to 5 months (12-7). This is possible, but it brings a lot of extra administrative tasks (we have to manually set new special order, change the validity of the subscription, extend licenses on license server etc) - that is pretty inefficient. And if I will take into account a number of box licenses we have sold in total, it is not worth it. This brings me to another point which I would like to talk about in our upcoming blog post.

FairSaaS vs Box

 We gave our customers a choice last year, between FairSaaS licenses (subscription) or Box (traditional license types). The fact is that less than 0.2% licenses are Boxes and less than 1.6% of licenses are Box with subscriptions. The traditional license model seems to be dead to me. We have mentioned the reasons and benefits of the subscription model for end users and us as developers on our blog earlier last year. That is still valid. But now we see that maintaining Box licenses cost much more than what it really brings. Doing updates for Box licenses is almost a waste of time and resources. And we will soon discontinue this license type. Not because we want to force users into subscription, but because users themselves decided that this type of license is not demanded by them anymore. We will also start fading Box+Subscription licenses at some point in 2016 - we will keep it in our store, but it will be only on request. This will happen later in Q2-Q3 2016. On the other hand, we will do certain changes later this year which will compensate this move, so the users on FairSaaS licenses will get even more value for money. This will let us focus less on licensing and pricing hell, and more on Corona itself.

rgrds.ah

[Muadib]

i really appreciate you taking time and replying so fast.
yes, the communication was from monika, and i have nothing negative to say about our exchange or the pro forma invoice. as it stand i will most likely make the wire transfer in the following days. the fee is honestly peanuts.

i am just interested in the principle of the matter.
since ach/viz area is the current focus of development, i am forced to use other renderers. that really saddens me and i would like to return to corona as my main renderer at some point.
this is why i asked about dropping of the sub, which apparently is not a viable move.

i have read the fair saas info and to be honest fail to see how it largely differs from any other rental systems. (correct me if i am wrong)
 "software as a service" is seemingly pushed on customers wherever i look and it surely does not work best in every scenario. it limits consumer choice at the very least.
on the other hand the percentages you cite make phasing out box version a no brainer and i completely get that.
at the end of the day i would like to own my products so if end when a piece of software goes rental only i will exclude it from my toolset.

i respect the hard realities of software development and am sure you are trying to do best for your product, company and the userbase.
i just have concerns about the future where every single software is being rented. from windows to max, photoshop, plugins.
not sure its that sustainable of a model.

[Ondra]

Allowing to re-subscribe at any time would make it possible to get upgrade worth 5 years of development for the same price as 1 year. We just had to close that loophole. It will be possible to buy upgrades for box version even without subscription, but at this point we are thinking of not even publishing prices and just doing a "request-a-quote" system, since only a couple of people (literally) might ever use it.

[Juraj]

We just had to close that loophole

I wouldn't say that's loophole. Subscribers aren't paying to get the updates, but to use them. If someones skips 5 years of payment, he didn't get to use those updates during that time, so he effectively lost that value.

It's only loophole if it happens within shortest amount of time for single upgrade timeframe. But even than the incentive to do this to rig the benefits is pretty small because it's still a yearly payment. Unless the individual update pricing would be more expensive. I think this is pretty non-issue.

But if it's really just 0.2perc. of userbase who use box, than yeah, pretty meager to maintain it at all.

[arqrenderz]

lol  :) I think my company is one of two with the box license :) Loving Corona every day.

[juang3d]

I have one box+subs and ona SaaS for the farm, but I want to migrate from SaaS to Box+Subs asap.

@Muadib If I'm right you cannot get up into the subscription again if you loose it, but also if I'm right you will be able to upgrade to Corona 2.0 when it's released and maybe in that case you will be able to jump into the subs wagon again, I'm not sure about that, but I think that is what I understood.

So if you leave subs you won't loose the ability to upgrade in the future, and you won't be stick with Corona 1.x, but of course you will have to pay for the upgrade (wich I think is perfectly normal)

In my case I choose Box+Subs always, I just haven't had the money to acquire the second box and I had to pay for SaaS (wich I don't like at all) but was the only way, I wish there were a rent-to-own, but hey, the current scheme is pretty fair (except for the inhability to add render nodes to box and the inhability to have this license floating... but those are minor things more or less we can deal with that and it's a matter of a different converstation :) )

Cheers!

[Muadib]

hi juang3d,

no, pretty sure that is not the case. there is no "if" nor a mention of that 2.0 scenario. that is the strange part to me.

i dont want to stir anything up here, since i do love corona. talented and hard working people behind it should reap all of the benefits of their product.
as juraj put it aswell though, the reasoning is not exactly flawless.
the whole point to me is that the value that corona continually provides should really itself motivate people to use it, be uptodate and want to support the development, not try to come up with schemes on how to spare some meager amount of money. its probably idealistic from me to say that most working in 3d do realize that they share their ecosystem with software manufacturers.

seems that daniel, juang and me make the whole of the boxed clientele so it makes it a non issue.
i will extend my sub, its not a money thing. i just wanted to voice my thoughts fwiw.

happy to let this thread die btw.

[numerobis]

So do i understand this correctly? If the subscription of my box license runs out there is no way to renew the subscription later? Only with an update to the next major release? Really?

[Ondra]

So do i understand this correctly? If the subscription of my box license runs out there is no way to renew the subscription later? Only with an update to the next major release? Really?

solution is to contact us at our support portal, and we will make an individual deal

[AndyQ]

A slight diversion here - based on the comments that box licences are "dead" and are a tiny percentage of licence sales. The IMPORTANT thing about retaining box licences as an option, as opposed to the approach made by companies like Adobe or Autodesk, is that you can be on FairSAAS but if you ever decide to stop subscribing you can always obtain a perpetual licence so you're able to work with your old files/scenes. Let's say the nature of your business changes or you fall on hard times - you're not left with work files that are no longer usable. You might find in future that Corona development stalls or you want to switch primarily to another renderer  - you can do this whilst keeping a full licence to use your old files. This is a CRITICAL difference because it gives the user/consumer some power to keep the vendor honest. This option was vital in making me decide to buy Corona. It made me feel like I could trust the company because I knew if things didn't work out I wouldn't be left high and dry. I'm happy to keep renewing my subscription in the knowledge that I'm retaining a bit of free-choice and will not be left without the ability to use my files. Think of it as a safety net - maybe most people are happier on a rental model, but it's always there if you need it. I would sincerely hope that the "box licence" remains an available option in perpetuity; for me it's an essential option to keep me a happy customer.

[fellazb]

A slight diversion here - based on the comments that box licences are "dead" and are a tiny percentage of licence sales. The IMPORTANT thing about retaining box licences as an option, as opposed to the approach made by companies like Adobe or Autodesk, is that you can be on FairSAAS but if you ever decide to stop subscribing you can always obtain a perpetual licence so you're able to work with your old files/scenes. Let's say the nature of your business changes or you fall on hard times - you're not left with work files that are no longer usable. You might find in future that Corona development stalls or you want to switch primarily to another renderer  - you can do this whilst keeping a full licence to use your old files. This is a CRITICAL difference because it gives the user/consumer some power to keep the vendor honest. This option was vital in making me decide to buy Corona. It made me feel like I could trust the company because I knew if things didn't work out I wouldn't be left high and dry. I'm happy to keep renewing my subscription in the knowledge that I'm retaining a bit of free-choice and will not be left without the ability to use my files. Think of it as a safety net - maybe most people are happier on a rental model, but it's always there if you need it. I would sincerely hope that the "box licence" remains an available option in perpetuity; for me it's an essential option to keep me a happy customer.

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