Chaos Corona Forum
General Category => General CG Discussion => Topic started by: K u r a i on 2014-09-11, 12:34:47
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I thought I would raise this subject because it needs addressing. It especially affects people new to CG who need help and venture on the Net thinking it is a place of freedom and expression.
This idea is far from the truth and new recruits should not feel upset or worthless when someone does not reply to their emails. It's a modern day curse. They do it because they know they can get
away with it.... and there usual excuse is that they are too busy to respond. Once a website or Blog igoes public they have a responsibility to treat all equally.
There are people out there that genuinely care about the craft of CG and are very supportive to new recruits. But I have only encountered a few. But, let me digress a moment....
You have all been to social gatherings and feel abit on edge standing there with your glass of something... when a stranger decides to talk to you... and then they ask the question you've dreaded " So... what do you do for a living".
Your response to this question will determine whether they look at their watch, look for an excuse to leave and snub you or take your business card because you may prove useful to them.
It is snobbery plain and simple. Snobbery is when someone makes a quick judgement about you and decides they know all about your character. It happens on the web too.
I am new to CG and in the last 6 months my enthusiasm has been tainted by Blogs that snub you. And when I say 'Blogs' I mean the well known Blogs created by the so called "elite" of CG.
My feelings run so deep about this that I am thinking of creating my own Blog Watch-Dog... naming and shaming the bad apples... and venerating the good Blogs that are friendly and show empathy for newbies or
people in general. It's just not right that people can get away with this bad behaviour.... and unfortunetly, it's a growing trend. This is the age of the 'Selfie" and 'it's all about me syndrome'.
In the last 6 months I have come to realise that most Blogs are not places to share ideas... they are Social Clubs for members only. The veneer you see on the outside is window dressing for what the ultimate
goal is.... to build a big fan base and then sell advertising space or CG products. If you ask advice on their personal forums I am sure you will get an answer because the last thing they want the public to know
is how shallow they really are. But, send them a private email and you will get no response.... unless it's concerning a product they are selling. I have had a few responses though words to the affect that they
are too busy working on a project with a tight deadline and cannot help.... which brings me to the point of asking...."Why create a Blog then?"
Sending them praise is not enough, they only listen to people they feel are on their level. Professional snobbery.
Now, you are probably thinking, hold on a minute, matey boy! That sounds abit harsh. And the moderators are probably thinking, lets delete this message cos we don't want to rock the boat.
So, I must add that this is based on my experience of CG Blogs. Other people could have experienced rainbows, dew-drops and fairies on CG Blogs. But I did not! Sorry.
My advice to newbies is.... stick to Software Forums (like this).... you are usually dealing with professionals who are trained to help you and you normally get a good response or
led in the right direction. Avoid Blogs if you don't want to become disappointed. Case closed. Though there are a few Blogs that have been superb and answered back with good info.
In fact, one of the good Blogs directed me to Corona and told me to try it out.
I have enclosed a quick article about: People who don't answer Emails. There is a growing army of people out there that are getting fed up.
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Well, when I was starting with 3D graphics and did not know anything, I too was frustrated with people not responding to my emails asking for help... no wait, I was not, because I did not write any emails to anyone. It did not even came to my mind that I should just approach somebody I have never met, never talked to, nor have any other connection, and straight up ask him to give me some of his time and energy to answer my questions. I have instead searched all over the internet, read tutorials (there were no videotutorials when I was starting... I feel old ;)), etc. And I surrounded myself with people roughly on my level, and we tried to search for answers together. We helped each other, but there was nobody just giving, and nobody just feeding.
I could turn your argument and make a pointless shallow counter-argument about how todays generation/people is lazy and expects to be spoon-fed knowledge when we had to actively search for it. But I will say this: nobody is obliged to answer any of your questions. Just imagine going to a restaurant and saying "I am hungry. I won't buy your food, but I want your cook to stop cooking and show me how to make this dish". Or going to car repair shop and saying "my car is broken, but I wont pay you for repair, I instead want your mechanic to show me how to fix it for free, so one day I could open up my own show and steal your customers". This is in principle what you are asking for, even though you might not realize it.
Also, if you look at it from another perspective... there are few thousands of visitors on Corona website every day. Imagine if 1% of them would decide to ask me something via email. I would have gotten tens of emails every day I would have to answer, and I could not do anything else just so you would not attack me, call me names, or threaten to publicly call me out. I would get literally nothing from this, just wasted time, that I could have used to make money, relax, or spend it with my family. And answering the questions just gets extremely boring after a while. There are really only a few questions that get asked over and over again, since nobody is willing to invest any energy in searching for previous answers.
So yeah, I side with the "elite". My advice to you:
1) Only ask for advice if you would think it would be appropriate to do the same in person
2) Realize that there are thousands of people like you asking questions to just few bloggers. They are not being rude by not answering, they just cannot keep up.
3) Find people on roughly the same level as you, and make a "study group"
4) Invest the time in searching. Most questions were already answered hundreds of time.
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Well, when I was starting with 3D graphics and did not know anything, I too was frustrated with people not responding to my emails asking for help... no wait, I was not, because I did not write any emails to anyone. It did not even came to my mind that I should just approach somebody I have never met, never talked to, nor have any other connection, and straight up ask him to give me some of his time and energy to answer my questions. I have instead searched all over the internet, read tutorials (there were no videotutorials when I was starting... I feel old ;)), etc. And I surrounded myself with people roughly on my level, and we tried to search for answers together. We helped each other, but there was nobody just giving, and nobody just feeding.
I could turn your argument and make a pointless shallow counter-argument about how todays generation/people is lazy and expects to be spoon-fed knowledge when we had to actively search for it. But I will say this: nobody is obliged to answer any of your questions. Just imagine going to a restaurant and saying "I am hungry. I won't buy your food, but I want your cook to stop cooking and show me how to make this dish". Or going to car repair shop and saying "my car is broken, but I wont pay you for repair, I instead want your mechanic to show me how to fix it for free, so one day I could open up my own show and steal your customers". This is in principle what you are asking for, even though you might not realize it.
Also, if you look at it from another perspective... there are few thousands of visitors on Corona website every day. Imagine if 1% of them would decide to ask me something via email. I would have gotten tens of emails every day I would have to answer, and I could not do anything else just so you would not attack me, call me names, or threaten to publicly call me out. I would get literally nothing from this, just wasted time, that I could have used to make money, relax, or spend it with my family. And answering the questions just gets extremely boring after a while. There are really only a few questions that get asked over and over again, since nobody is willing to invest any energy in searching for previous answers.
So yeah, I side with the "elite". My advice to you:
1) Only ask for advice if you would think it would be appropriate to do the same in person
2) Realize that there are thousands of people like you asking questions to just few bloggers. They are not being rude by not answering, they just cannot keep up.
3) Find people on roughly the same level as you, and make a "study group"
4) Invest the time in searching. Most questions were already answered hundreds of time.
Hmmm. Good answer. And you underline what I mean't. You are alone. Don't expect any help from anyone. And when you have all the knowledge you need... don't share it.... why should you.
I have spent a part of my life as an art & design teacher and the student master relationship is no longer a part of todays generation. We are not simply talking about knowledge. All the knowledge you need is on YouTube.
I am talking about being inspired by someone's work. If I said to Einstein how did you create E=MC sq it would be impossible for me to understand his answer... but if he talked about his own struggles finding the answer
that would in turn give me inspiration. We are talking about humans here... not drones sat at computer terminals.
Also, not writing to people because you have never met them flies in the face of every act of creativity.... from books to film to art to music. People create to communicate. We carry each other along.
I don't think the advice you gave sounds right. Sounds abit mean spirited. Have you got a Blog too?
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I don't think the advice you gave sounds right. Sounds abit mean spirited. Have you got a Blog too?
You are funny, I like you ;).
And I still give advice. But only when I feel like it - when I have the time and energy.
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I'm interrested.. why exactly do you think that Keymasters advice isn't good? Please, be specific.
BTW, here's how mean spirited(but still appropriate) response to your first post would look like: "Learn some respect kid"
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Hi Kurai, I have to agree with everything Keymaster said but I will argue in bit more detail. To preface my answer I have to say I feel quite angered by this self-righteous point of view,
which I presume may include also me, yet I am one of the people who answer everyone, but not second day given that I work like 14 hours a day, and see my family once a month and when I can do that,
last thing I wish to do is answer full A4 page long essays people write me on general issue.
First your point is naive and self-righteous, and quite selfish too. You've built a construct of world where everyone should be obliged to help you, for no other reason that just because you want.
You base your right for immediate answer on some abstract self-constructed concepts like "act of creativity" (? creativity is concept that can be completely introverted) and demand in selfish manner like spoiled child
with no consideration for others. You show zero empathy and understanding outside of your own concern and anger that world doesn't suddenly cater to your needs whenever you want it.
You missunderstood concept of public internet. The reason people share can range from purely selfish to completely altruistic intentions. Or any mixture between just like any issue in life. But it is not in your position to
judge particular person's reasons. It is, after all, their space, it's not everyone state-run community, it's personal space. In counter fashion, you can create your own.
People don't prefer public sharing of information because of some conspiracy argument of "don't appear shallow". Attacking people with such absurd claims only show your own projections of insecure mentality.
People prefer it because it has numerous benefits, like these few examples bellow:
-In public space, everyone benefits from answer, not single person, but 10, hundreds, hundred thousands ! What is 'better' ? Singe person learning answer ? Or hundred thousand ? Or do you think it's viable o answer thousand answers ? And forfeit any kind of life ?
-It also saves time of the creator. People don't start blog because it's the only thing they do in life. Most of time, surprisingly, still have life..and work. Blog can really be 0.1perc. of their past-time activity. It again, depends individually per particular case, but it's not up to you to judge for that. They're not obliged to share anything on top of the blog with you, some blogs (or media venues) don't even offer discussions, they simply share. In single direction. You just have your own understanding of the concept and you force it to everyone.
Just like Keymaster wrote, I never emailed anyone in my life. Why ? Because based on my culture and mentality, I consider it incredibly rude to ask people of their knowledge I don't have any obligation to deserve. Instead, I relished every time they decided to publicly (with everyone !) share some knowledge on their "self-centered" blogs. I was happy they had one, because the alternative was they would have none.
And that's like everything in life, we're not obliged to anything, except for death (and taxes).
You show no empathy or try to understand why people might not write you from 'practical' reasons. Just like Keymaster wrote, they're gettings hundreds of these emails. I can't even imagine the amount of email must PeterG or Bertrand get. I myself get like 20 (often lengthy A4 type essays per week), with repeated, general type of questions I answered hundred times on blogs, or varied forums. The people were just lazy to search for answers, they felt obliged to just bluntly ask again, with no consideration for my personal time. If I were to answer in proper detail (that they ask for), it would take me like 30 minutes per email, that's 10 hours of week, or two full work days of something no one pays me, or time I don't spend with stuff of my choice (family, friends, hobbys).
2 days !! And that's just me, now try to imagine someone way more popular. Do you seriously think they have time to answer emails as the only activity of the week ?
Emails are private medium. Most people don't have them for outsiders. Just because we live in internet era, doesn't mean you are you obliged to just connect to anyone in any way and demand intrusion into their privacy. Most people have emails for work and inner circle only. It's parallel to you coming to knock on their doors and just asking them in middle of day something, disrupting their privacy, their day/night activity. It's same thing literally and you really that's completely fine ?
I don't know if it's worth even to continue. For all sakes, start a 'shaming' blog as you write. Because that's like amazing idea, that will absolutely revolutionies the environment we currently have and it will probably inspire people to share more. Except it would do exact opposite... ? I don't know...how does logic work.
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I don't think the advice you gave sounds right. Sounds abit mean spirited. Have you got a Blog too?
You are funny, I like you ;).
And I still give advice. But only when I feel like it - when I have the time and energy.
Just to clarify... I am talking about communication.... not knowledge.... at the end of the day.... Courtesy costs nothing :)
I wrote to the Director of a software company asking if I could experiment with his software before I commit....he gave me a license for a year. He proabaly gets thousands of emails a day.
But, he choose to help cos it was part of his nauture. Which in turn makes me loyal to his product. Also, I asked one of the most famous architects in the world about his work and how it inspired me.
He invited me for a guided tour of his state of the art studio in London. Again, he did this cos it was part of his nature.
Sometimes good things happen when you ask.... or have a genuine interest in something.... as the saying goes...."there is nothing more interesting than someone who is interested" :)
Thanks for responding :)))) It's all harmless stuff.
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Well, Juraj, we only defend something that's not true. And you have gone to great length in painting my words in a bad light.
I did not mention any names of Blogs or people. But since you have gone on your orange box about this I will be terse.
Courtesy costs nothing. If you do not respond to four email then you have chosen to do so. You have decided that it is unworthy of your time to respond.
This is your choice. But you should change your email address from: sayhello@jurajtalcik.com to something closer to the truth.
BTW. I am the opposite of what you feel I am. I go to great lengths to always put myself in other peoples shoes and write good things about there work. My only crime is that I share an interest in CG. Surely, this is worthy of some respect?
I don't think selfish is apart of my persona. I actually like people. I just dislike snobs :)
I think you should re-read your response. Your the one who comes across as selfish. You say things with such venom. I cannot believe I wrote to you.... but, I must admit... your work is brilliant :)
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Well, out of your 4 monologues, I actually answered two, and then went to Sweden. But now I am done with you. You could have gotten your answer but instead you chose to attack multiple people, of which I 'rightly' guess I am part of.
But for sure, in your logic, that means I had gone 'out of orange box', whatever that means.
Had it ever cross your mind that the email is associated with my business perhaps ? I even have a thread here, dedicated purely to questions. One where you can ask, and others can read it. Something that benefits 3 parties (me, you, and others).
What you write you are, and what you come across as from your writing, are two very different subjects. Currently they contradict in my opinion a lot and I suggest you to look more at your own stance before pointing at others and projecting.
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Are you ignoring my question kurai?
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You obviously spend a lot of time thinking and writing about this mailing issue. If you spent this time instead by browsing internet for the answers you mail those people about, you would probably have at least one less reason to mail them because you would learn something new. I often see this on CGtalk. There are two groups of people. One group, which just talks about CG and spends most of their time replying to those abstract threads in General Discussion section, and other group, which spends time doing actual CG, and improving themselves.
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Are you ignoring my question kurai?
No... I am just picking my kid up from school and then I will reply. Thanks
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Are you ignoring my question kurai?
No... I am just picking my kid up from school and then I will reply. Thanks
You see...? You are no better than the ones you talk about.. You have simply chosen to not reply to the question... When there is no respect in you on other peoples opinion how do you imagine to learn anything from anyone. You're not the center of the universe and the sooner you realize, the better..
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@Kurai
To many words and assumptions. Young are you in mind and soul. Learn to love thy enemy, till there's none left.
Patience, will and modesty... will bring answers that are in you.
Master serves only self and by that he is serving many. Or in other words - Only joyful can and will bring joy.
Ps
Snob is a mere human in fear and pain who cannot recognize the source within self. Thus making self an animal. Being of just meat, body, mater.
I don't feel you, am only an answer to an abstract i assume as another confused entity.
@Juraj & Keymaster
Respect
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pfff,
I hate it too that people don't take the effort to look for info by them selves. You can find a lot on the internet: blog tutorials, .....
Some of them are quite old, but still usefull. If you want to know how to use MAX, look for tuts or buy the books from Ted Boardman, no one can better explain how to use max.
There is a search bar here on this forum. If I read what people dare to post, you see that they are to lazy to search for info.
So I only can agree with Juraj and Keymaster ans hope they keep up the good work!!
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Are you ignoring my question kurai?
I think I explained myself in my reply to Keymaster. I am not talking about knowledge, though people seem to defend it with such zeal. I am talking about communication and courtesy.
What I wrote was not personal. I did not name Sites or Blogs and I understood that what I wrote would get a hostile response. That's the nature of the internet.
I live in Egypt and have witnessed a very bloody revolution right at my door. That is the real world. Us talking on this Forum is not real at all. We have never met.... and we can say anything we like without consequence. They say that the internet is a full contact sport... but if anyone spoke to me badly in the street I would not react kindly. But people know they can get away with it on the net and act however they like.
BTW - nobody has ever taught me anything on the net that has changed my workflow. But, people have given me lots of support and encouragement....for free.... cos that's what people do.... like I said... when it's part of their nature to do so :)
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All I would like to say here is:
-you can usually find most ui/workflow/tool answers and step-by-step instructions by using basic googling skills, there is absolutely no need to send emails to unknown people
-you can still use forums or chats where people meet to discuss stuff, just leave a message and wait for answers
-I'm not even necessarily referring to 3d stuff here as I am no professional, but if an unknown person sent me an e-mail concerning any matter, and I would not reply, I wouldn't feel guilty or anything, as Kurai states multiple times - you have your right to choose and justify your decision with any, even least important cause.
Oh god, I can't believe I joined this thread. This is no good.
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pfff,
I hate it too that people don't take the effort to look for info by them selves. You can find a lot on the internet: blog tutorials, .....
Some of them are quite old, but still usefull. If you want to know how to use MAX, look for tuts or buy the books from Ted Boardman, no one can better explain how to use max.
There is a search bar here on this forum. If I read what people dare to post, you see that they are to lazy to search for info.
So I only can agree with Juraj and Keymaster ans hope they keep up the good work!!
Thanks. Try doing that in Egypt. There are no books on CG. No DVD's. And expats like myself are not given credit cards. So... I have to rely on peoples good nature and YOUTUBE.
And... if I was going to take your words literally then YOU yourself should never, ever ask a question about CG on this site or any other. In fact, if you followed your own advice
and NOT use the internet for help.... this site.... all sites.... all software, would cease to exist. The internet was built on communication.
Come on guys. Your not making any sense. Your talking about withholding info like you own it.... ha ha.... if you have a dictionary... do you own the rights to the human language.
We are talking about software here. I have designed all over the world but I don't say to my clients I am going to design this for them, but I am not going to give them any ideas cos I
went to college, then university, and worked at design companies for many years. I give my knowledge freely.... cos it engenders trust and builds friendship. It's a two way thing.
You guys take yourselves too seriously. I am knew to CG but I have been a designer all my life since I was 16 and know I am 47 and designed all over the world.
SO, FOR THOSE THAT MIS-UNDERSTOOD MY WORDS, I WILL SAY THIS SIMPLY... IF I WRITE AN EMAIL TO SOMEONE IT IS A FRIENDLY COURTESY BETWEEN DESIGNERS.
I DO NOT DO IT TO POACH KNOWLEDGE FOR SELFISH REASONS. IT IS THE FIRST STEP IN AN ACT OF FRIENDSHIP. Case closed :)))
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All I would like to say here is:
-you can usually find most ui/workflow/tool answers and step-by-step instructions by using basic googling skills, there is absolutely no need to send emails to unknown people
-you can still use forums or chats where people meet to discuss stuff, just leave a message and wait for answers
-I'm not even necessarily referring to 3d stuff here as I am no professional, but if an unknown person sent me an e-mail concerning any matter, and I would not reply, I wouldn't feel guilty or anything, as Kurai states multiple times - you have your right to choose and justify your decision with any, even least important cause.
Oh god, I can't believe I joined this thread. This is no good.
I am sorry for writing it. Administrators, please delete this thread. It's become toxic :(
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@Kurai
To many words and assumptions. Young are you in mind and soul. Learn to love thy enemy, till there's none left.
Patience, will and modesty... will bring answers that are in you.
Master serves only self and by that he is serving many. Or in other words - Only joyful can and will bring joy.
Ps
Snob is a mere human in fear and pain who cannot recognize the source within self. Thus making self an animal. Being of just meat, body, mater.
I don't feel you, am only an answer to an abstract i assume as another confused entity.
@Juraj & Keymaster
Respect
I like this comment. It's the first time someone has said something meaninful. I will go away "Burnin" and heed your words. There is too much hostility here and not enough wisdom.
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You are misunderstanding or ignoring the counter-arguments. No one is saying knowledge shouldn't be shared, but you demand it in aggressive and impatient way, like it is any privilege and right to receive answer without taking
into account any realities of those you're asking and then projecting negative attributes to those based on pure and faulty assumption.
This thread imho should not be deleted because it illustrates quite few issues that exist in what is rather young industry and its community.
If there is any negativity it's the one you started the thread with and now you've become sensitive to rather rational answers.
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I will keep the thread (only maybe lock it if it will turn into personal bashing). There are some interesting points in the last page and half
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How many emails like yours do you think they get each and every day??? It's practically impossible to reply to everyone (I assume, since I don't have a popular blog/web site). Try to put yourself in this position. A random internet guy sends an email asking basic stuff... Really???
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Well, Juraj, we only defend something that's not true. And you have gone to great length in painting my words in a bad light.
I did not mention any names of Blogs or people. But since you have gone on your orange box about this I will be terse.
Courtesy costs nothing. If you do not respond to four email then you have chosen to do so. You have decided that it is unworthy of your time to respond.
This is your choice. But you should change your email address from: sayhello@jurajtalcik.com to something closer to the truth.
BTW. I am the opposite of what you feel I am. I go to great lengths to always put myself in other peoples shoes and write good things about there work. My only crime is that I share an interest in CG. Surely, this is worthy of some respect?
I don't think selfish is apart of my persona. I actually like people. I just dislike snobs :)
I think you should re-read your response. Your the one who comes across as selfish. You say things with such venom. I cannot believe I wrote to you.... but, I must admit... your work is brilliant :)
Well Kurai, i don´t quite get you either... I mean be honest, it´s a wonder that people even find the time to answer any mails they get from strangers. for questions, that´s what also forums are for. I might have a strange perspective as i learned 3d in a time when there was no such thing as blogs for everything, from the late 90s/early2000s on, when i was 18 and just out of school. And people used to learn it anyway if they were dedicated. i love to answer questions (should anyone have them) from time to time, but do you know what it´s like to have a functioning business as well as trying to have a bit of a good work/life balance?
i learned 3d parallel to studying architecture, and then in 2010, when i was in my 10th year of studying here in vienna, and working parallel all the time in offices as well as freelancing in 3d archviz stuff (i taught myself with friends), we founded our own company. this stuff can take time and commitment, blogs and mails can ease the learing curve and time, but yeah... it takes time. so anyway, i don´t want to insult anyone especially not you or any beginner (why would one do that?), but you also have to get the perspective of the people being bombarded with questions all the time!
cheers,
chris.
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hola,
well i am pretty sure i am not really adressed with the term "elite" but after i have some experience in sharing and "blogging" (whatever this is) i'd like to add my two cents to this discussion.
we run a small side-site "xoio-air.de" on which we share stuff with the world, like textures, cutout people, modells. For free, because we like to "give something back". and because we like the positvistic spirit it injects. this is very good.
I also love talking gigabyte and nerding, really a passion. And I also answer emails. Funniest was not even 3d-related. Someone asked whether one of my images really is a render and if not where he can buy a bicycle in that copper material.. Of course I answered, but i dont get that many emails - or better put: I only get them when our secretary forwards the email to me. I don't get the general "info@" email. why?
Besides all the stuff mentioning above and the joy of giving I also have to pick up my kids and want to have a private life. I don't want to be bothered with obscene project-inquiries that never happen becasue of absurd conditions, I also don't want to explain someone he would have to turn on GI to get rid of the black shadows.
There are good questions and stupid questions, I love answering good ones.
As Juraj puts it right: People are only obliged to death and taxes. And He's a good guy, no need to attack him. :D
with love
lasse
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My funniest emails were concerning my fractal works (http://keymastercz.deviantart.com/gallery/).
One guy asked me who told me to make the fractals, what formulas did I use, if they were my idea, etc. etc. etc... because they supposedly contain some secret messages about founding of Jerusalem.
Other guy told me that he wants me to develop a fractal for him that will provide free energy, unite elementary forces, or do some other physics breakthrough. I am still not sure how one would go around doing that while rendering a fractal, but he apparently knew...
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You are misunderstanding or ignoring the counter-arguments. No one is saying knowledge shouldn't be shared, but you demand it in aggressive and impatient way, like it is any privilege and right to receive answer without taking
into account any realities of those you're asking and then projecting negative attributes to those based on pure and faulty assumption.
This thread imho should not be deleted because it illustrates quite few issues that exist in what is rather young industry and its community.
If there is any negativity it's the one you started the thread with and now you've become sensitive to rather rational answers.
I want to apologise to you and the CG world for anything that I said you felt was wrong. It is something that has accumulated for 6 months and I just had to get it out.
SO PLEASE, CORONA FORUM (and especially Juraj and the Keymaster from the Matrix) PLEASE EXCEPT MY APOLOGISE. I AM AN IDIOT :)))
I just want you to know something. I am 47 and only discovered CG in the last two years. I first discovered Sketchup and then Vray and than Max and now Corona. It's been hard guys. If I was back
in the UK I could get tuition.... but not in Egypt. So, I beg for scraps of info. I am a CG Beggar :) Please take pitty. And thankyou for people offering help.
I must also add that I was the black sheep of Art College for being rebellious. It's still in my nature....so I have to throw stones from time to time.... cos it makes me feel alive. Last thing I want to do is write threads about
how wonderful everyone is.... that's fake.... like FaceBook.... I hav'nt got 255 friends.... it's not real... what I have got though is a desire for knowledge.....ha, ha, ha....(evil laugh). So lets not kid ourselves here. You CG guys don't hold
the secret of the Universe.... so get off your thrones.... and throw a few scraps to old folks like myself.
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There are people who love to help, and there are people who have amazing technical/artistic knowledge, these circles don't always overlap
K u r a i, you sound like there's some big conspiracy to keep new people from learning CG, in fact I see the opposite there are so many avenues for learning these days its overwhelming. I kinda feel like I'm in the middle of being a newbie and being the "elite" you mention, a spot I kinda like as I see so many inspiring artists that I'm trying to get to that level, but also over the hump of learning the basics and I'm starting to gain confidence in my ability to create. So I understand the frustration of the newbie, sometimes you don't even know how to phrase the question you want to ask or you read a tutorial that glosses over a step that the author takes for granted that the reader knows. On the other hand being asked how to do a simple such and such task for the hundredth time in a week is probably annoying.
Why are you privately emailing people? Ask on the forum, if you have a question someone else probably does too, and sometimes a stranger you weren't expecting will come to your rescue. It also helps the future newbies.
side rant you know what is annoying? Those guys who post a question online then suddenly say they figured it out without explaining their discovery, come on!
I think the biggest problem with asking other for their workflows is that it sort of stamps into your mind that "this is how this is done" but you don't really know why. I guess my advice for any newbies is be methodical with the software, experiment and fail often. If something doesn't make sense simplify the problem down to a single variable. You have to be a scientist. As a last resort I will ask online for help, don't expect any answers and be grateful for any that come (and how many times I've asked a question only to figure it out right after, doh! )
Anyway good luck.
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sorry but maybe we must to move the topic to "Off-Topic"?
oh ... or maybe to "I NEED help!!!!!!!"? (;
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There are people who love to help, and there are people who have amazing technical/artistic knowledge, these circles don't always overlap
K u r a i, you sound like there's some big conspiracy to keep new people from learning CG, in fact I see the opposite there are so many avenues for learning these days its overwhelming. I kinda feel like I'm in the middle of being a newbie and being the "elite" you mention, a spot I kinda like as I see so many inspiring artists that I'm trying to get to that level, but also over the hump of learning the basics and I'm starting to gain confidence in my ability to create. So I understand the frustration of the newbie, sometimes you don't even know how to phrase the question you want to ask or you read a tutorial that glosses over a step that the author takes for granted that the reader knows. On the other hand being asked how to do a simple such and such task for the hundredth time in a week is probably annoying.
Why are you privately emailing people? Ask on the forum, if you have a question someone else probably does too, and sometimes a stranger you weren't expecting will come to your rescue. It also helps the future newbies.
side rant you know what is annoying? Those guys who post a question online then suddenly say they figured it out without explaining their discovery, come on!
I think the biggest problem with asking other for their workflows is that it sort of stamps into your mind that "this is how this is done" but you don't really know why. I guess my advice for any newbies is be methodical with the software, experiment and fail often. If something doesn't make sense simplify the problem down to a single variable. You have to be a scientist. As a last resort I will ask online for help, don't expect any answers and be grateful for any that come (and how many times I've asked a question only to figure it out right after, doh! )
Anyway good luck.
Thanks for the reply..... and guess what.... that guy that posts a quesyion on a forum and then writes another saying they have solved it.... that's me :) Sorry. When I don't know something I go into a panic and cannot rest until I get the answer.
And talking conspiracies.... you make sending an email sound tragic. Why is sending emails to people so dire. I usually sent emails full of praise and talk about how inspiring it is.... how bad is that.... I also ask one or two questions.... but I am not committing adultery or threatening people with kidnap.... I am aknowledging there existance. Ha Ha it's really strange to think that people go to such effort to create Blogs and websites and don't expect to get some reaction.... "Hey, I cannot beleive it.... this guy just sent me an email asking what renderer I prefer. Who does this guy think he is....I refuse to respond.... ha ha.... that will show him."
Like you said.... I think it's better I go on Forums.... like this....
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Funny, of all the forums I visit in regards to 3D / MAX / rendering, this one has been the most helpful, and I've been using many forums for years and years. As per blogs, Peter Guthrie, Bertrand, Jeff Patton and Ramy Hanna have always been courteous and helpful; whether to people in general or anytime I've asked them a direct question.
I don't expect to get answers right away, or really ever at all when I consult the big guys. I expect slow answers on forums just because the majority of 3D forums don't have much activity nowadays aside from a couple. Do I consider it rude in any way? Hell no. I understand that people can't take the time to help everyone, so then I press on and read and try to find answers for myself.
I think a part of no responsiveness comes from the fact that as Cg artists, we don't want some of our little secrets getting out. After all, if everyone knew the same stuff and used the same methods a lot of work would look similar I feel. Withholding info can be a good thing. When it comes to general questions, than whoever can help can. Should they? No, no one is obligated, but when they do its nice. I don't think foul of anyone for not providing help, but that's just me.
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"Hey, I cannot beleive it.... this guy just sent me an email asking what renderer I prefer. Who does this guy think he is....I refuse to respond.... ha ha.... that will show him."
And you are back to assumptions and projections on others, approaching this whole issue in oversimplified manner and very black&white way. Everyone tried to explain that's not what most people think at all. Usually these emails are not single questions like this either, they're full blown essays with many often quite open ended question. Replying to them takes great energy and lot's of time, which is extremely scarce commodity for most people, esp. professionals who are over-head with deadlines, and those few minutes they want to take off, they prefer to do so in forum, or just forfeit completely and spend with family/friends/hobbies.
If someone doesn't reply to you immidietely, to full extent, or not at all, it doesn't really say much about it, except that he probably has valid reasons to do so.
You continue to look at things from a limited personal perspective, instead of trying to understand others. You can't just call yourself emphatic and yet keep narrow outlook on issue.
And I already explained that blogs have nothing to do with your understanding. What about media ? Do you think that just because journalists write articles, they expect to receive 10 000 emails from readers to continue discussion, to all of them obliged to answer ?
Sometimes there is a place for discussion, sometimes there isn't. But the playing field is not automatically private domain and no one is obliged to partake in anything.
You can't just automatically assume that just because someone started any digital venue or outlet (either through blog or forum participation), he is now obliged to share more with you (of his time/knowledge or other commodity). That is completely false equation and I am surprised how would you arrive to this logic ?
You continue to hold on assumption that people owe you part of their privacy and personal time based on common courtesy and easy reachability, which is often thought fallacy of current digital age.
When I begun CGI, it was in my mentality that I wanted to share. It's nothing really altruistic, it's more about my choleric personality, traits of which are just often extrovertial. Since the last 3 years, I almost always answered every question into my workflow and everything and answered hundreds of threads asking help on CGArchitect. But that doesn't mean it's limitless and fills my whole day. There is cap to how fast and to what extent I am even capable of answering everything. Hell, I don't even answer all work offers, I don't have time. I prefer to help other cg artists then to even say "sorry I don't have time for your project". That's how invasive things can be, and how little time most people have.
Last thing: Imagine you wanted to get home to your family. But every stranger on street demanded your attention for 20 minutes otherwise they would consider you rude and ignorant. How would you find it ? When would you get even home ? Internet is the same thing, we're not closer to each other just because it's easier to reach people.
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"Hey, I cannot beleive it.... this guy just sent me an email asking what renderer I prefer. Who does this guy think he is....I refuse to respond.... ha ha.... that will show him."
And you are back to assumptions and projections on others. Everyone tried to explain that's not what most people think at all. Usually these emails are not single questions like this either, they're full blown essays with many often quite open ended question. Replying to them takes great energy and lot's of time, which is extremely scarce commodity for most people, esp. professionals who are over-head with deadlines, and those few minutes they want to take off, they prefer to do so in forum, or just forfeit completely and spend with family/friends/hobbies.
If someone doesn't reply to you immidietely, to full extent, or not at all, it doesn't really say much about it, except that he probably has valid reasons to do so.
You continue to look at things from a limited personal perspective, instead of trying to understand others. You can't just call yourself emphatic and yet keep narrow outlook on issue.
And I already explained that blogs have nothing to do with your understanding. What about media ? Do you think that just because journalists write articles, they expect to receive 10 000 emails from readers to continue discussion, to all of them obliged to answer ?
Sometimes there is a place for discussion, sometimes there isn't. But the playing field is not automatically private domain and no one is obliged to partake in anything.
You can't just automatically assume that just because someone started any digital venue or outlet (either through blog or forum participation), he is now obliged to share more with you (of his time/knowledge or other commodity). That is completely false equation and I am surprised how would you arrive to this logic ?
You continue to hold on assumption that people owe you part of their privacy and personal time based on common courtesy and easy reachability, which is often thought fallacy of current digital age.
When I begun CGI, it was in my mentality that I wanted to share. It's nothing really altruistic, it's more about my choleric personality, traits of which are just often extrovertial. Since the last 3 years, I almost always answered every question into my workflow and everything and answered hundreds of threads asking help on CGArchitect. But that doesn't mean it's limitless and fills my whole day. There is cap to how fast and to what extent I am even capable of answering everything. Hell, I don't even answer all work offers, I don't have time. I prefer to help other cg artists then to even say "sorry I don't have time for your project". That's how invasive things can be, and how little time most people have.
Last thing: Imagine you wanted to get home to your family. But every stranger on street demanded your attention for 20 minutes otherwise they would consider you rude and ignorant. How would you find it ? When would you get even home ? Internet is the same thing, we're not closer to each other just because it's easier to reach people.
Actually, Juraj, I was saying that with a sense of humour.... cos it was getting too serious ;)
I find it funny how people can instruct me on what's right and wrong. Like you are the CG Police or something. I can say what I like... just like you can respond to who you like.
Anyway, I like Corona, so I will cross paths with you from time to time.... does not mean we have to lecture one another on etiquette.
So... please... stop painting me in such a bad light. It's not a witch hunt. I said I am sorry. I am going to have a beer now and relax :)
Thanks for not responding to my emails. And thankyou for explaining (at great length) why you and countless other Blogs don't bother to reply. It was contructive :)
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I find it funny how people can instruct me on what's right and wrong. Like you are the CG Police or something.
How ironic, talking of "CG Police:
I am thinking of creating my own Blog Watch-Dog... naming and shaming the bad apples
Thanks for not responding to my emails. And thankyou for explaining (at great length) why you and countless other Blogs don't bother to reply. It was contructive :)
With bit more humility it would be no problem for me to reply to your email as well when I get time over weekend. But you just keep on going.. I am done with this "discussion" for now.
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This thread is really bizarre. It should be kept as an example exhibit of Internet discussion. I'm surprised so many users fell for this.
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This thread is really bizarre. It should be kept as an example exhibit of Internet discussion. I'm surprised so many users fell for this.
I like it :D I just hope that at the end of the day everybody has a beer and relaxes a little..
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Yeah, the thread is actually ok. It's polarising but so is every discussion. What is there to fell for ? It's not trolling wars ;- ).
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This thread is really bizarre. It should be kept as an example exhibit of Internet discussion. I'm surprised so many users fell for this.
I like it :D I just hope that at the end of the day everybody has a beer and relaxes a little..
This is what life is about. Passion. When you do or say something with passion... things happen. It's not about talking shop all the time and saying nice things.... that's no good to anyone.
You have to ruffle the feathers abit and speak your mind, even if it goes against what others are saying.
Fight your corner and say what you believe. Ask questions that provoke genuine answers.
Yes, have a beer for me too :)
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Yeah, the thread is actually ok. It's polarising but so is every discussion. What is there to fell for ? It's not trolling wars ;- ).
When I was a student I bumped into another student at the bar. We both started shoving each other and it turned into a fight. We got separated by the crowd and it ended. For the next three years everytime
I saw the guy I had a scuffle with we smiled and nodded to each other. It was an act of respect. A guy thing. Sometimes arguing can bring people closer together because you come to some form of conclusion. Closure. And for that moment
when it happened you feel alive. I feel happy I posted the thread cos I was able to get how I felt out in the open. And everyone who took part helped me to realise that I had been wrong in my opinion and I had to re-think things through :))
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This thread is really bizarre. It should be kept as an example exhibit of Internet discussion. I'm surprised so many users fell for this.
I like it :D I just hope that at the end of the day everybody has a beer and relaxes a little..
This is what life is about. Passion. When you do or say something with passion... things happen. It's not about talking shop all the time and saying nice things.... that's no good to anyone.
You have to ruffle the feathers abit and speak your mind, even if it goes against what others are saying.
Fight your corner and say what you believe. Ask questions that provoke genuine answers.
Yes, have a beer for me too :)
I had.. :D now it's time to sleep cause deadlines are coming! Good night.