Author Topic: Let's talk about refl.glossiness  (Read 4200 times)

2016-10-28, 06:13:11

astudio

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May be there was such thread here but "Due to high stress on the server, the search function has been automatically and temporarily disabled."

As I understand new suggested workflow is to keep reflection color pure white and manage reflection by refl.glossiness map. Isn't it?
From my test making it brighter increase reflection and reduce glossy. Isn't it?

How to get a material with strong reflectivity but still glossy? As old paper for example. Not white but still reflective. And what differnt will be between old paper and old wood material. Let's leave a diffuse aside.

There is not old good glossy map. And I want to keep IOR physically correct.

How to get a material with low reflectivity and without glossy at all?

Usually I know the reflectivity from reference book. I have a diffuse, I know reflectivity in %which I need and now I need to keep reflectivity and add some glossiness. What will be my workflow?
Is it really simlper then old reflection and glossy map?

2016-10-28, 11:25:34
Reply #1

Fluss

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As I understand new suggested workflow is to keep reflection color pure white and manage reflection by refl.glossiness map. Isn't it?

Yes, for dieletrics. For metals, you'll have to set RGB values.

IOR from 1.3 to 1.6 (phisically correct for dielectrics)

You have to see refl. glossiness as the inverse of the surface roughness. Highly rough material -> low refl. glossiness -> blurry reflections and vice versa.
The percentage reflected back as specular is driven by IOR so set it accordingly to punch or lower the specular.

Edit: you should post your questions into the appropriate section (cf. "I need help")
« Last Edit: 2016-10-28, 12:35:42 by Fluss »

2016-10-28, 14:25:36
Reply #2

astudio

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NO, no... It's a place. I try to talk about concept.
From a large number of answers (one answer in 12 hours) I see that not all users understand difference.
And only me don't afraid to look like fool.  For me it's important to look good with my clients, not here.

Is this a new workflow?
Good old school says: Take IOR from reference book (property of material) , take reflectivity from reference book  (property of material), use glossy according to your needs (property of specific object). Everything clear here.

What say good new school from yesterday thread? To use white reflection and manage by refl.glossy? Or I miss something?

 Is refl.glossy -  material property or specific object property? I'd like to get simple answer, not something like "go and look around you".

2016-10-28, 15:40:35
Reply #3

Fluss

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Can't help you anymore as I don't understand what you're expecting...

If you don't understand material creation concepts then read books on that subject (as you seem attached to your magical book which makes your 40+ months renders fantastics..)

2016-10-28, 17:06:37
Reply #4

astudio

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OK... I understood the level of conversation.

My question to other users.

In old material creation workflow my texture worked independently. Glossy map managed only glossy, reflection map managed reflection and so on... So if I make mistake in one of my parameters, it leads to let's say 25% of mistake in my whole material (I take diffuse, glossy, reglection and IOR in this case)

With new material creation workflow all parameters depend one on another. Do I understand right? So my mistake in one texture will kill other. Wrong glossy will kill my reflection and so. So if I make mistake in one of my parameters, it leads to 100% of mistake in my whole material.

If so, then when I draw the glossy map, I must take in mind reflection, albedo and so on... It's  not looks like the simplest way. For sure it's good for big artist but not for everyday business.
If so is there a way to back to old default? (Not to turn off PBR and legacy mode button for every new material)

If I wrong in my understanding of PBR, please tell me.


Generally I see the corona team work in this way:


2016-10-28, 17:16:38
Reply #5

astudio

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Here is a good example I think...
A little bit darker albedo reduce also reflection and as result all the wall will be darker x2. Isn't it?
I really not Michelangelo to feel this level of difference in diffuse but overall result is bad.
Does it mean that new default is for Michelangelo only?




2016-10-28, 17:48:13
Reply #6

Fluss

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OK... I understood the level of conversation.

My question to other users.

In old material creation workflow my texture worked independently. Glossy map managed only glossy, reflection map managed reflection and so on... So if I make mistake in one of my parameters, it leads to let's say 25% of mistake in my whole material (I take diffuse, glossy, reglection and IOR in this case)

With new material creation workflow all parameters depend one on another. Do I understand right? So my mistake in one texture will kill other. Wrong glossy will kill my reflection and so. So if I make mistake in one of my parameters, it leads to 100% of mistake in my whole material.

If so, then when I draw the glossy map, I must take in mind reflection, albedo and so on... It's  not looks like the simplest way. For sure it's good for big artist but not for everyday business.
If so is there a way to back to old default? (Not to turn off PBR and legacy mode button for every new material)

If I wrong in my understanding of PBR, please tell me.


Generally I see the corona team work in this way:

It's not against you... really... but we explained you how the material creation work, in this thread and in the previous one, but you keep hitting the virtual wall you put in front of yourself because the provided answers does not suits your expectations. What's more, your english isn't that good and you keep trying to express your ideas with plethora  of analogies.... So try to be simple and synthetic..

2016-10-28, 18:27:40
Reply #7

astudio

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I ask concrete question and try to get concrete answer. Your mind about reading the books and my 40+ projects just not useful. Sorry.
Your answer about using pure white reflection color looks just wrong.
My workflow must be effective. Only this way I can manage my 40+ projects, which you can't forget.

If we have new material concept here, I need to learn it. It's a reason why I ask. There is not documentation about. Usually I use IOR and LRV numbers from catalogs and manage only glossy. With your workflow I don't see for example, where to put LRV.

Once more - I'm not a big artist. 99% of users - you'll be wonder - are not big artists. And rendering - you'll be wonder - it's not art only. But I read a lot, have some knowledges, have some experience and my business works good.  Because I don't try to look a guru and don't hesitate to ask may be stupid question.

So my question is still actual. Do we deal with new concept (pure white reflection color and so on) or you just mistaken and I may to continue work as in the past.
Simple question - I'm waiting for simple answer. Your answer "go and read the book" I already know.

2016-10-28, 18:57:01
Reply #8

pokoy

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I ask concrete question and try to get concrete answer. Your mind about reading the books and my 40+ projects just not useful. Sorry.
Your answer about using pure white reflection color looks just wrong.
My workflow must be effective. Only this way I can manage my 40+ projects, which you can't forget.

If we have new material concept here, I need to learn it. It's a reason why I ask. There is not documentation about. Usually I use IOR and LRV numbers from catalogs and manage only glossy. With your workflow I don't see for example, where to put LRV.

Once more - I'm not a big artist. 99% of users - you'll be wonder - are not big artists. And rendering - you'll be wonder - it's not art only. But I read a lot, have some knowledges, have some experience and my business works good.  Because I don't try to look a guru and don't hesitate to ask may be stupid question.

So my question is still actual. Do we deal with new concept (pure white reflection color and so on) or you just mistaken and I may to continue work as in the past.
Simple question - I'm waiting for simple answer. Your answer "go and read the book" I already know.
You seem to ask the same thing over and over again and it seems you're afraid of doing something wrong. Here's a little secret that you may not be aware of: Corona, being a 'physically accurate' renderer, follows the law of energy conservation which means that all of the materials you create are physically correct (or physically plausible). However, no one can teach you how to setup EVERY material correctly to work in ANY condition you may think of.
Really, sit down in front of your PC and spend time learning for yourself instead of trying to suck out others' brains. Chances are that - even if people tell you the value of every parameter in their materials - you won't like the result or will have to adapt it to your lighting and general setup. It may sound stupic but you need to find a way that works for you.

Why not just plug a map into the glossiness slot, play around with color correction and see where it gets you? Hint: this was an example, don't take it too literally.

If you try to dissect every suggestion given to you by different people, you will find that every one does things differently, yet they all produce beautiful work. There's no wrong, just go ahead and try, but stop accusing people of being arrogant when they actually try to help and it just doesn't happen to click in place for you.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-28, 19:33:17 by pokoy »

2016-10-28, 19:17:48
Reply #9

romullus

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So my question is still actual. Do we deal with new concept (pure white reflection color and so on) or you just mistaken and I may to continue work as in the past.

Please do. Apparently you're doing great and everybody else are just plain wrong. So stick to your old workflow and don't mind others.

I wonder why you keep asking the same question, when you're ready to accept only one answer.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
My Models | My Videos | My Pictures

2016-10-28, 19:57:31
Reply #10

astudio

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I'll try to translate your answers to "construction" language which I understand only.

There is no way to use LRV number (standard for all color manufactures) as a number. Only by artistic way. It's sad and doesn't help.

Thank you to all.